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Identifying The Eight Kings Of Revelation 17:10

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Richard, Sep 14, 2012.

  1. Richard

    Richard New Member

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    As far as I am aware of, no one - Christian or otherwise - has ever successfully identified the eight kings of Revelation 17:10. Many have tried, including many of the Early Church Fathers. Because of the dominance of the Imperial Roman Empire in the first century A.D., many of those same Church Fathers tried to find the answer in successive Roman Emperors, usually beginning with the tyrant Nero.

    The study of eschatology or end-time prophecy came to an end within the Western Church around the fourth century A.D. when St Augustine determined that it was beyond understanding, and even dangerous. The study of eschatological prophecies was renewed with the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century A.D. The early Reformers, and those that followed them, usually picked up where the Early Church Fathers left off since they were well acquainted with their writings and saw, as a result, various Imperial Roman Emperors as the fulfillment of the prophecy. That there were literally hundreds of Imperial Roman Emperors didn't seem to be enough to deter most interpreters; they simply picked the Emperors who they believed better fit their paradigm, then named those specific emperors as the fulfillment of the prophecy of the eight kings.

    Regardless of the sincerity of the various theologians and apologists who have attempted, over the centuries, to interpret the prophecy, sadly, error usually begets error, and by the early nineteenth century A.D. a quasi-Revised Roman Empire had grown out of the attempts to force Imperial Roman Emperors into the fulfillment of the prophecy which is Revelation 17:10. This led directly to other misinterpretations of other eschatological prophecies. The end result, sadly, has been the Church as a whole has been misled and, as a result, "can not see the forrest for the errors." Today the Church, especially in America, looks for an eschatological paradigm where some form of a quasi-Revised Roman Empire (the Fourth Beast of Daniel 7) becomes the vehicle which allows the Antichrist to come to power; usually through the United Nations. Gog, of the land of MaGog is, in many of these same paradigms, is usually the Russians (formerly the atheistic Soviet Union), and in extreme Protestant circles the Roman Catholic Church becomes "Mystery Babylon" of Revelation 17, the heretical religion of the great Beast which is the Kingdom (Empire) of the Antichrist, etc.

    Any eschatological paradigm can - and must! - be tested. Just as scientific theories must be tested before they are accepted as truth, eschatological paradigms must also be tested before they are ever accepted as truth. And the way to test any eschatological paradigm is simple - all eschatological prophecies from both the Old and New Testaments must fit into the new paradigm without being forced. For example, one can not attempt to trace the migration of the ancient people known as the Scythians throughout the many centuries, which is virtually impossible since the history of their migrations is incomplete, simply because one believes that the Scythians were the original inhabitants of "The Land of MaGog" and, over the centuries, eventually migrated into Russia. Thus, Russia, of their preconceived beliefs, must be "the Land of Magog."

    Moreover, any eschatological paradigm must also solve any of what I like to term 'mysteries' of eschatological prophecies. And again, it must do so in a convincing fashion, not forced as the eight emperors (kings) of the hundreds of Imperial Roman Emperors which where chosen, were chosen simply to be forced into the prophecy which is Revelation 17:10 in order to come up with an answer to the mystery which is the literal fulfillment of the prophecy.

    That brings us to the purpose of this article - to correctly answer, for the first time in Church history, the mystery of who the eight kings of Revelation 17:10 are. In my new book, Kingdom of the Antichrist/The Rise of the Beast I go into great detail regarding my new end time paradigm. In doing so the paradigm, as I understand it, easily answers the prophecy which is Revelation 17:10. "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction" Rev. 17:10-11.

    The "Five who have fallen" can be none other than the only five Caliphs (kings) the Islamic Empire has ever known since its inception in the sixth century A.D. 1. Muhammad, 2. Abu Bakr, 3. Omar, 4. Umar and 5. Ali.

    Because the Islamic Empire, since the death of the last Caliph, Ali, and the ensuring civil war, which is known to history as The War of the Camels, has been a divided empire (Sunni and Shiite), Islam has not known a sixth caliph for nearly fourteen hundred years. Under Islamic tradition, there can not be a sixth caliph until the empire is first reunited.

    The sixth Caliph (king), then, is "Gog, of the land of MaGog" (Ezek. 38, 39) who reunites the Islamic Empire (the Fourth Beast/Empire of Daniel 7) in an attempt to annihilate the modern Jewish state of Israel (Ezek. 37).

    Gog, and his coalition force (empire) is defeated by God, and Gog dies "on the mountains of Israel" (Ezek. 39:2). This is the "mortal head wound" suffered by the first beast of Revelation 13:3. The "first beast" of Revelation 13 is the Islamic Caliphate, but more on this in a minute. The death of "Gog," "on the mountains of Israel" opens the way for the seventh king (Caliph), known to Scripture as The False Prophet, but known to Islam as al-Mahdi (the Mahdi) of Islamic eschatological anticipations.

    al Mahdi of Islamic eschatological anticipations is a forerunner - a sort of John the Baptist to "Jesus, son of Mary" of Islamic eschatological anticipation. (This is not the place to go into a detailed explanation of who, exactly, "Jesus, son of Mary" is in Islamic eschatology, or how they will perceive him. But it is enough here to say that "Jesus, son of Mary" is the Antichrist (Greek anti = imitation of). Thus, as is foretold in the Hadith (Traditions) of Islam, al Mahdi will welcome "Jesus, son of Mary" as Caliph, and even abdicates (must remain for a little while) his power and position to "Jesus, son of Mary." Thus, making "Jesus, son of Mary," who is the Antichrist, the eighth and final king (caliph).

    As we alluded to earlier, "The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction" (Rev. 17:11). "He belongs to the seven" simply means that the eighth king (Caliph) belongs to the Caliphate (the seven) which preceded him. This Caliphate, then, is the "beast" "coming out of the sea [of humanity]. He had ten horns [the ten kingdoms of Ezekiel 38 which make up the empire/beast of Daniel 7] and seven heads {the Caliphate]....Rev 13:1.

    Richard Neal - author Kingdom of the Antichrist/The Rise of the Beast
     
  2. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    Just to name some likely possibilities...some of which have fallen.
    Saddam Hussein
    Hosni Mubarak
    Moammar Gadhafi
    Bashar Al-Assad
    Ahmadinnijad
    Ali Abdullah Saleh
    King Abdullah
     
  3. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    It's not that difficult.


    Rev 17:10-11
    10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
    11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
    (KJV)

    "five are fallen" = Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Mesopotamia

    "one is" = Roman, Domitian in John's days

    "and the other is not yet come... he must continue a short space" - the final Antichrist for the great tribulation time

    "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and of the seven, and goeth into perdition" = Satan, when he is released one more time at the end of Christ's future thousand years reign.

    ANYTIME... you see God's Word referring to one like that king that goes into 'perdition', that means Satan. The reason is that only he and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perdition into the future lake of fire. No flesh man, not even any of the previous beast kings like Nebuchadnezzar have been judged yet. The reason why Satan is "of the seven" previous kings is because he's been the one behind them in attempt to establish his kingdom over all the earth.
     
  4. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    I no longer believe that theory and it's an old one.

    I'm going to ask you the same question I did on another thread.

    What is it in Revelation 17 that indicates to you that the beast is figurative of centuries old past empires? I think God is being more specific and less complicated here. I think all the beast mentioned in Revelation as well as the four beast in Daniel 7 are complete end-time entities.

    Because the word "before" in Daniel 7 means 'in the presence of' and not historically before....and because there's no indication in Revelation 11, 13, 17, etc. that any of these beast represents past empires, I say that all of them are completely figurative of end-time kings and empires.

    Now think about the 7 heads and ten horns.

    The ten horns are ten kings "which have received no kingdom as yet;"

    But receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    Why would anybody think these are past empires? Read carefully!

    And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

    The beast that 'was, and is not, and yet lives' doesn't imply past empires.
    and this verse implies that they are not!

    And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

    And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

    And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

    How can past empires have one and give their power and strength to the end-time beast?

    And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet;

    How can they be past empires if the have received no kingdom as of yet?

    And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

    How can past empires hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked...

    For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

    How can God put in the hearts of kings of past empires to give their kingdom(s) unto the end-time beast?

    It makes me wonder how people, esp. the prophecy experts arrive at their conclusions and disregard these simple truths.
     
  5. Richard

    Richard New Member

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    These MUST be "Five Kings (Caliphs)" who have ruled the reunited empire of the Book of Daniel...None of these five, some of which have not yet "fallen (died)" have ever been considered a Caliph by anyone at any time - nor did they reunite the Islamic Empire.

    You are confusing the "ten kings" or kingdoms of Ezekiel 38 with the fourth beast of Daniel 7...The importance of the ten kings of Ezek 38 is that they make up the fourth empire of Daniel 7. We know this because they are the coalition force (empire) that invades a reborn state of Israel "in the latter days" (Ezek 37).

    We know that John, in the Book of Revelation is looking back over time because he names Daniel's four beasts (empires) in reverse order (Rev 13:1-2)...Daniel, was looking forward in time to the appearance of three more beasts (He currently lived in Babylon, the first beast)). John, however, was looking back in time to three that had already come and gone in world history, i.e., Babylon, Medo-Persia and Alexander's Grecian, while, at the same time, looking forward in time to the dreaded fourth beast...
     
  6. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    John or Daniel were not looking back in time.

    The dream in Daniel 7 happended about 35 years after Daniels' dream of the great statue.

    Most interpreters do believe that the vision of Daniel 7 depicts the same empires as of Daniel 2.

    Lion
    How can this be Babylon when Nebuchadnezzar had already gone mad and restored to the throne? The date this vision occured is the 1st year of Belshazzar who was the last king of Babylon. Daniel sees this beast (lion) rising out of the sea. Babylon had already risen and was toward the end of it's reign. Daniel's prophecy of the lion can't be about Babylon because it was already in existence. This would make Daniel a false prophet and atheist Kyle Williams has caught onto it to debunk the bible and make Daniel a false prophet.

    Why would Daniel get a vision about a kingdom that has already risen some years ago and is at the end of it's reign?

    It is unlikely that a vision in chapter 7 would be a repetition of Daniel 2. Why would God find it necessary to repeat a vision to the same prophet?
    Daniel 2 and 7 are written some 35 years apart and written in Aramaic indicationg it's meant for gentile nations.

    I think that this vision is a picture of 4 empires just preceeding the Lords return.

    This is with the permission of a good friend who I haven't see since 2003.
    Understand something about the word before...

    Daniel’s vision has traditionally been interpreted as a progression of world empires culminating in a revived Roman Empire. Following this tradition, Babylon is considered the lion, Persia the bear and Greece the leopard. But the weakness in this interpretation can be seen from a closer look at Daniel 7:7b which reads in the King James Version, "it (the fourth kingdom) was different from all the beasts (kingdoms) that were before it." The Hebrew word for "before" in this text is ‘qodam’ which means "in front of, in the presence of," not "historically before" as is commonly interpreted. This means the first three empires will be in the presence of (or stand before) the antichrist kingdom when it emerges. They will be current and contemporary with the emerging of the final evil empire. In fact, in Revelation 13:2, the first three beasts are essentially incorporated into the final entity, as if it were a global merger of sovereign empires. "And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion."

    I would also like to mention that the word fallen doesn't mean to have died. It means to to descend from a higher place to a lower.

    To this list I would also like to add Ben Ali the fallen leader of Tunsinia.

    Saddam Hussein-------------Iraq
    Hosni Mubarak---------------Egypt
    Moammar Gadhafi-----------Lybia
    Ben Ali--------------------------Tunsinia
    Ali Abdullah Saleh------------Yemen
    These five have already fallen. I don't know if they are the 5 mentioned in Rev. 17.
    _______________________________

    Bashar Al-Assad--------------Syria
    Ahmadinnijad------------------Iran
    King Abdullah------------------Saudi Arabia
     
  7. Saint

    Saint New Member

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    Or it could be the Regime that claimed the Caliphate of Islam:

    #1 The Quraysh 621-661
    #2 Umayyads 661-749
    #3 Abbasids 749-932
    #4 Buyids/Fatimids 932-1171
    #5 Seljuk/Ayyubids 1171-1260
    #6 Mongols/Mamiuks 1258-1517
    #7 Ottomans 1342-1923
    #8 Last Calliphate (Mahdi) still future



    In Yeshua Messiah,

    Bob
     
  8. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    Why do you and so many others believe the beast of Rev. 17 is a progression of past empires???
    What is it in the text that leads you to believe that.

    If that's what you and others believe I would like somebody to answer the questions I asked in post #4.
    These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

    How can the kings of past empires have one mind and give their power and strength to the end-time beast?

    And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet;

    How can they be past empires if the have received no kingdom as of yet?

    And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

    How can past empires hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked...

    For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

    How can God put in the hearts of kings of past empires to give their kingdom(s) unto the end-time beast?
     
  9. Saint

    Saint New Member

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    The list kaoticprofit had to do with the seven kings of which five have fallen, one is and one must still come of Rev 17:10-11; it was presented as a consideration. You mean to say that you don't think these verses don't have referance to the first and last Caliphate?

    In Yeshua Messiah,

    Bob
     
  10. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    I don't. I think the beast of Rev.17 is a complete end-time entity. And the questions that I asked explain why I think it is a complete end-time figure. To me it really doesn't make any sense for it to be a progression of caliphates or empires.
    I present my idea as a consideration too. Subject to change. But I might be right if we see the Arab world unite in some way soon.
     
  11. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    Ahhh, comeon!, Richard ... Give us a break, huh? :rolleyes:
    Do you really believe that God cares two hoots whether you're a Muslim sinner or a Jewish sinner or a Gentile sinner?
    You're not the first (nor will you be the last) to demonize a race of people or a particular religion by a twisted construct of theology.
    As a matter of fact, you're theology is similar to that of the intolerant Jihadists whom you seem to abhor so much. They too demonize everyone who don't belong to their particular slant of beliefs.

    I can only suspect that it was people with the same mindset as you who were justifying the 12th century Inquisition too.
    To understand the description of the heads, insight combined with wisdom is called for.
    The faithful church is founded on the seven columns mentioned in Hebrews 6:1-2. These are repentance, faith in God, baptism in water, baptism in the Holy Spirit, the laying on of hands, resurrection from the dead, and the eternal judgment.

    Richard, you need to discover knowledge about the pillars on which the assembly of the unfaithful is founded before you go off on some rant about Muslims ... or any other race, group or religion.

    I respectfully suggest that you "Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth" and maybe decide to re-write your book. :)
     
  12. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    Considering what you just said...

    I side with Richard on this one! He's on the right track!

    Hey! After the next 911 maybe you'll change your mind~
     
  13. Saint

    Saint New Member

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    Oh they will unite into another and last Caliphate and it will encompass the same general area and nationalities; those same nations who have been against Yahweh since the beginning of time. Assyria is the focal point of unrighteousness both yesterday and tomorrow. I think more than once the antichrist is referred to in Isaiah as the Assyrian.

    In Yeshua Messiah,

    Bob
     
  14. Richard

    Richard New Member

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    There are many lessor "Caliphs" of lessor known Islamic "kingdoms" you could have mentioned. But the whole point is that under Islamic tradition, one can only be considered Caliph if he rules over a united Islamic Empire (Sunni Shiite) like the first five caliphs did. Those are not my rules, but rather the rules of the "ummi" or world-wide Islamic community; rules which are based on the Traditions (Hadith) of Muhammad. Still, many lessor kings have claimed to be Caliph over the centuries, but the world-wide Islamic community (ummi) never considered them Caliph...That puts us right back to where we were: Five have fallen: 1. Muhammad 2. Abu Bakr 3. Umar 4. Omar 5. Ali. The next recognized Caliph (recognized by the world-wide Islamic community) must, then, reunite the world-wide Islamic community (Sunni and Shiite) into one Empire. Gog will do this when he leads an invasion of modern Israel. With his untimely death "on the mountains of Israel" the way will be opened for the seventh Caliph - al-Mahdi of Islamic eschatological anticipations. Scripture calls this "king" the "False Prophet." He will abdicate his power and position as Caliph when "Jesus, son of Mary" of Islamic eschatological anticipation appears on the world scene, exactly as is foretold in the Islamic Hadiths. This "Jesus, son of Mary," then, will be the "eighth king (caliph) and the Antichrist. He will be the infamous Antichrist because he is a poor imitation (Greek = anti) of Jesus Christ. In fact, he is a Christ made up, not by Muhammad, but rather by the many Gnostics which preceded him over the centuries. One, then, must understand Gnosticism, its history, origins, and specifically its heretical Christologies if he is to fully understand the Antichrist, and the eight kings....

    Richard Neal - author Kingdom of the Antichrist
     
  15. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    He's also refered to as the king of Babylon.

    I don't know if you looked at these but this is what I believe.

    http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/14617-the-assyrian-anti-christ/


    http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/14636-nebuchadnezzars-yoke-of-iron/
     
  16. JosyWales

    JosyWales New Member

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    The eight kings of Revelation are the Seven Angels of Revelation and the False Prophet that rises after that supports the Seventh King, who is the Beast.
     
  17. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Don't know what theory you speak of. And by the way, God's Holy Writ is pretty old, and it's not theory.


    Where you pulling that idea from? You didn't get it from anything I wrote above. I have always pointed out how the Rev.13:1 beast kingdom is for the very end of this world just prior to Christ's return. In Rev.17, both the Rev.13:1 beast kingdom and the beast king of Rev.13:11 are being covered. It's just that Rev.13:11 doesn't call him a king there. But Rev.9 does give that link, and that's who Rev.17:8, 10, and 11 is pointing to, an entity, the final Antichrist. That's the one John said was still yet to come. But the five that had already fallen, that was about previous beast kings of history that were already past in John's days. You were supposed to pick that idea up even in Rev.13:2 when the 1st beast was being described, as some of the Dan.7 beast kingdom symbols were given in that verse.

    So basically, you're deluded if you think everything revealed in our Lord's Revelation is only about end time events. It covers points in past Biblical history also while using those historical events to help describe future events to come. There's even several direct parallels in Revelation to Genesis.
     
  18. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    I'm pulling the idea from the text itself. So then answer my questions!

    Why do you and so many others believe the beast of Rev. 17 is a progression of past empires???

    What is it in the text that leads you to believe that?

    If that's what you and others believe I would like somebody to answer the questions I asked in post #4.
    These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

    How can the kings of past empires have one mind and give their power and strength to the end-time beast?

    And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet;

    How can they be past empires if the have received no kingdom as of yet?

    And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

    How can past empires hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked...

    For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

    How can God put in the hearts of kings of past empires to give their kingdom(s) unto the end-time beast?

    Come on Veteran get it right!

    The Protestant theory about Rev. 17 is that it's a progression of world empires culmination into the final beast empire. I don't know how long that idea has been around but I use to believe it too because I accepted the theory of the 'prophecy experts'.

    Now that I do my own homework I've repented of that kind of thinking.

    I ask anybody on the forum to answer my questions!
     
  19. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    What makes you think the eight kings mentioned in Rev.17:10-11 are of the same ten kings mentioned in Rev.17:12?

    Look at the simple grammar...

    Rev 17:10-12
    10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
    11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
    12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
    (KJV)


    Using the perspective of John's day:

    "five are fallen" = Past
    "one is" = Present
    "other is not yet come" = Future

    "ten kings" that have received no kingdom yet = Future


    How is it that you cannot see how those ten kings are a separate subject from those mentioned in the previous verses?

    In Rev.17:8, 10, and 11, John is being shown about the idea of beast kings, while also being shown about the one that is to come, and also who the final eighth beast king is. Those verses include time markers and a partial description pointing to the beast that goes into perdition, which is Satan per Rev.9. So both a separate beast king, and ten kings are being described to come still in John's future there.
     
  20. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    Has common sense gone right out the window with you???

    The word fallen means to...

    to descend from a higher place to a lower

    It doesn't mean historically in the past.

    Now answer my questions!
     
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