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Idolatry and 1 Cor Ch.8

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by seekandfind, Jul 27, 2012.

  1. seekandfind

    seekandfind New Member

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    I wanted to post this in the "God is a God of knowledge" thread, but it kept adding it to my last message and made this long message even longer. So I moved it to it's own thread.

    1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

    At the council of Nicaea, recorded in Acts 15 leaders who were believers in Christ came together to discuss what should be taught to the Gentiles, (new believers, babes in Christ.)

    Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

    Acts 15 and 1 Corinthians 8, both go into eating things sacrificed that are offered to idols.

    The bible goes into both natural and spiritual things. There are many examples where the eating of natural foods is compared to eating of spiritual things.

    When Jesus spoke to Nicodemous He said, John 3:12 “If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?”

    In 1 Corinthians, Paul is talking about young believers who might be offended by what they would eat naturally, The end of the chapter goes into this more.

    1 Corinthians 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
    1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    Not eating things scarified to idols comes from Exodus 34:

    Exodus 34:15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;

    Clearly Paul is talking about idolatry involved with false religions, (which is also recorded over, and over again throughout the bible.) And idolatry by the many things that people can and have worshiped in the world. (Also many examples in the scriptures of this.)

    A few examples that come to mind would be that when the Hebrew children were brought into Israel, God told them not to learn of the gods of the people around them. Not to even speak their names, and not to learn their ways.

    Deuteronomy 6:14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;

    Exodus 23:13 And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

    Exodus 23:23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
    Exodus 23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

    There are examples in the scriptures where created things, such as the brazen serpent that Moses held up for the healing of the people was being worshiped. In 2 Kings 18, King Hezekiah destroyed the brazen serpent that Moses had made because the people were burning incense to it.

    2 Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brazen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

    The brazen serpent was made in the wilderness and used for the people to look upon for healing when they were bitten by snakes. It was a “shadow of things to come.” As Jesus said this regarding it:

    John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    Back to 1 Cor 8,

    1 Corinthians 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
    1 Corinthians 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

    Matthew 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

    1 Corinthians 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of your's become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
    1 Corinthians 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
    1 Corinthians 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
    1 Corinthians 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
    1 Corinthians 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

    Studying the bible is not Idolatry.

    Throughout the bible, when the scriptures were lost, the people fell into idolatry and when the scriptures were rejected people fell into idolatry. Here are just a few examples.

    2 Kings 22:10 And Shaphan the scribe showed the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath delivered me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king.
    2 Kings 22:11 And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes.
    2 Kings 22:12 And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah a servant of the king's, saying,
    2 Kings 22:13 Go ye, enquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us.

    2 Kings 23:23 But in the eighteenth year of king Josiah, wherein this passover was holden to the LORD in Jerusalem.
    2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the LORD.
    2 Kings 23:25 And like unto him was there no king before him, that turned to the LORD with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; neither after him arose there any like him.

    Jeremiah 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

    The bible goes into different things that we can put our trust in and things that can become idolatry, but our trust should be in Jesus.

    Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

    Psalms 119:42 So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.

    Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
    Proverbs 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
    Proverbs 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
    Proverbs 3:8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

    Psalms 62:10 Trust not in oppression, and become not vain in robbery: if riches increase, set not your heart upon them.

    Proverbs 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.

    Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

    John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
     
  2. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    This is akin to listening to secular music. Some think it an outright sin to listen to song that was sacrificed to an idol (other than God). Others see through what the intent of the performer is and into something greater.

    Is it a coincidence that a musical talent show should be called "American Idol"?

    Some would take this to mean working for the government or arms industries or cigarette manufacturers...etc

    I think we have to be sure that what we do is according to our faith...unless we are offending others by our liberties of course.
     
  3. seekandfind

    seekandfind New Member

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    I'm not sure why you are offended or going on the attack Episkopos.

    Because I believe what is written? You yourself have said that you have had many years of study and you matured and grew to the point (I suppose) where you no-longer believe what is written? Yet you will deny others the truth that is in the word? I just don't get it.

    If you can't answer by the truth, attack is the next best thing.

    i have no qualms with you. I simply believe the word, and will speak out regarding it. That beam (that rejects the scriptures) has been removed.
     
  4. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi Episkopos,

    What is akin to listening to secular music?


    I'm afraid I didn't understand your post. It was like you had already had some thoughts, and partway through you started writing them down...



    seekandfind,

    I enjoyed your post, thank you.

    In light of certain other threads going on at the moment 1 Corinthians 8:11 is very interesting indeed!
     
  5. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Why do you think I am attacking? I am drawing a comparison from what was once promoted in the early church to a modern equivalent. I am not disagreeing with you...merely keeping up to date. We can no longer actually go to the market and buy meat that was sacrificed to idols. Do you follow me there? But we do have other things at the market that were offered to an idol...like music!!!

    I was looking at the practical application of a tradition that no longer has relevance on it's own in our time.
     
  6. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Ah!

    I'm aware that there are many countries and religions, and occult practices - including in the west - where an equivalent takes place. And, in our cosmopolitan world, there is always someone nearby for whom the basic message in Paul's writings still applies to the ancient practices which have been kept alive, just as it did then.
     
  7. seekandfind

    seekandfind New Member

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    As I stated in the message itself that it was in response to another message where someone else brought 1 Cor Ch 8 into the conversation as a way to make a point that biblical knowledge is a form of idolatry, despite the hundreds of verses that show that it is not. When I read it in the other message string, I knew exactly where the person was going with it.

    When I looked at the chapter I wanted to make sure to examine it all because there are some principles in it that go along with several other chapters and verses in the bible. That is why the message has so many verses.

    I posted a message a while back called "biblical foods', in it there were several scriptures that show different aspects of what we eat.

    These are examples of what I mean, so don't take it personally.

    Psalms 141:4 Incline not my heart to any evil thing, to practise wicked works with men that work iniquity: and let me not eat of their dainties.

    Proverbs 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

    Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

    Proverbs 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

    Jesus also goes into a different principle of spiritual food in John Ch 6.
    John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    There are also references to natural foods that we eat. So with that in mind, and as you stated yourself the chapter goes into the natural aspects as described in the word.

    I don't see 1 Cor 8 as being irrelevant at all. If we disregard one chapter, then we can disregard other chapters until we don't need the bible at all. I'm sorry that it bores you.

    Honestly, if you heard me sing, you wouldn't be board at all. You might buy some ear plugs but it certainly wouldn't bore you.
    :D
     
  8. whitestone

    whitestone New Member

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    The Spiritual message is what is important to the individual here.
    If music helps one worship, then it is a blessing to that person.
    Someone else's mind may wander because of music...
    Someone else's mind may wander because of eating certain meats.
    Whatever it is in life that we allow ourselves, we should simply do inventory on once in awhile,
    to make sure that isn't taking up time in our thoughts, words or actions, robbing us away from Worshipping the Name of Jesus.

    Those are exactly what idols are today. It can be anything or any'one' that takes up our mind time.

    Let everyone be convinced in their own mind and everyone else refrain from judging our freedoms in Christ is a good saying also.

    It could even be mammon.
    Lord, is it I?

    Whitestone
     
  9. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Very good observation!!!
     
  10. Stan

    Stan New Member

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    FYI, the council of Nicaea occurred in 325 AD and the second one was in 787 AD. The first one brought us the Nicene Creed, which I personally love. It is NOT described in Acts 15, which happened around 60 AD. Acts 15 is more a story of how the OT laws had already affected the church and that Paul, Peter and Barnabas were against ANY rules from the Mosaic Laws. Verse 10-11 clearly shows Peter stating this; [sup] [/sup]Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
    John 3:12 is NOT talking about food at all. It is talking about things that Jesus and His disciples KNEW and tried to teach the Pharisees. This Pharisee had heard it all and reacted incredulously to Jesus talking about being born again. His comment was, "How can this be"? Food laws were OT/OC...the issue under the NC was not causing people to stumble and NOT using other people's freedoms against them. ALL believers are exhorted to walk circumspectly.
     
  11. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    I was slightly shocked to notice for the first time how Paul used the word 'perish' in 1 Cor 8:11 - just through causing a brother to stumble? But it's what he really meant!

    This is from Mickelson's Greek for the word 'perish'.

    G622 apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee) v.

    1. to destroy fully

    2.(reflexively) to perish, or lose
    {literally or figuratively}

    [from G575 and the base of G3639]
    KJV: destroy, die, lose, mar, perish
    Root(s): G575, G3639
    [?]
     
  12. seekandfind

    seekandfind New Member

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    Thank you for the correction Stan,

    I searched for more information on this, and there are similarities to the Acts 15 account to the Council of Nicea. With that said, I apologize if I caused any confusion on that matter. As I've stated many times here on this forum, I'm still learning, growing and maturing.

    The original conversation was in regards to knowledge in the scriptures. The person arguing against biblical knowledge used this argument:


    The issue that I have with it, and with others who disregard the scriptures as clearly evident on this message string and on others, even to the point of tying study of the scriptures to being some form of idolatry ("Bibliolatry") is this. These same people are busily attacking churches for teaching half truths, and the reason that happens is because of the rejection of parts of the scriptures or one-sided teachings.

    These people are doing the very same things that the churches that they complain about are doing. It's hypocrisy plain and simple.

    If anyone here has a problem with what is written, that is between you and God. As for me, I'll continue to study the word and believe God, HIS instruction and HIS truth. We should search out everything that we hear to make sure that it lines up with the Word of God.

    I think it's interesting how these people are on the attack against me, and the thing is that my main message is that we should study God's word as Jesus said. "Man shall not live on bread alone but on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." AND apply it, walk in it with CHRIST.

    We can't have one without the other. Sorry, but it's just true. We need the full counsel of God.

    Proverbs 19:21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    This was written in Isaiah.

    Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
    Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

    I will not respond to any more of your attacks Axehead, Espiskopos, and Dragonfly.

    It's in God's hands, I don't have time for these silly distractions.
     
  13. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hello seekandfind,

    How have I attacked you? That was not in my heart at all. I consider you a true brother in the Lord!


    Please PM me if you don't want to write here.
     
  14. Stan

    Stan New Member

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    MOUNCE uses the word 'destroyed'. As you state, Strong's shows it as the Greek verb, apollymi, and shows the following connotations;
    1) to destroy
    a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
    B) render useless
    c) to kill
    d) to declare that one must be put to death
    e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
    f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
    2) to destroy
    a) to lose

    Vine's perspective is as follows;

    a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins

    Years ago, when I was about 22, I opined a lot about it being OK to drink wine for Christians. It was a reaction to the prejudice I found in the church about drinking. The way I voiced it though, conveyed that Christians ought to stop being so stuck up and have a little wine now and then, after all Paul told Timothy to! Now please don't respond saying I was wrong, I know I was.
    Bottom line is a friend of mine decided if Stan though drinking was OK then smoking grass was OK and she got together with old friends and got stoned. When she realized what she had done she got mad at me and told me because of my opinion that I had set her back in her was....and she was right! We are to walk circumspectly and NOT force our opinions and personal freedoms on others. This is the whole reason God created a New Covenant. So He could write His will on His laws for us on our hearts, and deal with EACH of us as individuals.
     
  15. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi Stan,

    Thanks for those other scholars on apollymi.

    I really 'get' what you're saying, but I have the feeling that it's the same law for everyone (love) and that its application in my life is different from yours - and that's what you're getting at; an individual walk with the Lord in the Spirit. Amen?
     
  16. Stan

    Stan New Member

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    Amen!

    sorry about the masked icon with a smirk, apparently b ) without the space causes that effect. I have to try to remember that when I post those kinds of formatted lists.
     
  17. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    They turn up so often I barely notice them now. But I also try to notice to put an extra space in beforehand.
     
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