Imputation is based on the Old Testament

[Episkopos]

In the OT we read that Abraham was imputed (attributed) with having righteousness by faith. We read...​

Gen. 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

What kind of righteousness was that? It was human righteousness. Abraham grasped that God could do anything...like a child would. He did what was possible for men to do in their own strength.



Another example of this same kind (human kind) of righteousness is shown to us with Phinehas. He was was justified by WORKS...that he did in his own strength. Again, same level of righteousness.

“Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed.” “And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.” Ps. 106: 30, 31

Neither of these examples points to grace. God is merely counting righteousness to those who have shown their own initiative towards right doing.

​

The confusion comes by misunderstanding Paul. ​

​

​

Romans 4:22-25 KJV​

And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; but for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.

People are taught to self-justify based on what only God can do in the future. An inheritance is only worth something if we are faithful till the end. In the meantime we are to move on into the high calling in Christ...to enter into Christ now. ​

So we see we can be justified both by faith AND by works.

But Paul only speaks of faith because it is scaleable into the faith OF Christ.

So we can be justified in our own faith (and works). BUT.....we can only enter into Christ by faith. No amount of works lets us into resurrection life in the here and now. To walk in His salvation we must enter into Him by faith. And the faith to do that is a gift. The gift of faith.



Gal. 3:22 "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."


Faith is given to those who already believe. In Christ we go from faith to faith...from our level of faith to His. On the holiness scale ALL are missing the mark. But the faith OF Christ (His faith not ours) is given (as a gift) to those who have already believed (with their human faith).

So in the NT we have 2 levels of faith to consider. The human faith is as good as Abrahams' in that it is for an inheritance on judgment day. But there is the faith OF Christ to consider...which we apprehend by entering personally into Him to walk as He walked.

Acts 26:18 "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness (actually "freedom") of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

Where is the faith that sanctifies us found? It is found only by entering INTO Christ. This is above the justification of men based on human faith and works. This is a supernatural faith that causes us to walk in Zion as Jesus walked. Even the smallest amount of this faith can move mountains. It translates us into the kingdom of His dear Son...right now!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Waaah! You posted stuff that’s hard for me in evening when my brain is starting to tire for the day! But I’m certainly not going to wait for morning for your post brother! Making coffee.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Okay I read it a few times. I’m going to read Romans again and go gather the other verses that came to mind before I attempt to explain what is so difficult for me in your post.

And I promise right now I will completely ignore any post in here by the usual cast of characters who try to throw a good discussion into a mud pit of egoic and narcissistic flesh displays. I will also ignore the posts of anyone (even those whose posts I always look forward to) who even so much as encourages them by getting pulled into responding to their bad behavior. I just don’t have the desire, will, strength or patience to put up with it. In fact, I’m going to start using the ignore button in order to not be distracted by nonsense.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Okay, two cups of joe, wide awake and reading and gathering stuff together.

My first difficulty is in trying to ascertain how Abrahams trust is that different from our trust. God spoke to Abraham and Abraham believed God and believed and trusted God was truthful and was telling the truth and could be trusted and should be trusted. I can’t see how that is so different than having your eyes opened/your blindness healed, to see God exists (and having God be pleased to show you His Son.) Abraham heard God. Not every man has ever heard God. Had Abraham never heard God, how would he have believed God? So God talking to Abraham was a gift that caused Abraham to believe God, to have faith in God. So…I see his faith as a gift. And I see my trust/faith as a gift too. In fact, I had locutions once, soon after I first came to God, and if anything, that actual hearing God has helped me in my trust maybe MORE than other believers.
So I can’t see that Abraham just did something on his own that was just humanly possible.

Thats my first difficulty.

I do see a difference in…Abraham not seeing Jesus clearly (or at all) and maybe not having his conscience as at ease as I do about his sins being forgiven? Possibly? But I can’t see the difference in trust that you do.

 

[Episkopos]

Okay, two cups of joe, wide awake and reading and gathering stuff together.

My first difficulty is in trying to ascertain how Abrahams trust is that different from our trust. God spoke to Abraham and Abraham believed God and believed and trusted God was truthful and was telling the truth and could be trusted and should be trusted. I can’t see how that is so different than having your eyes opened/your blindness healed, to see God exists (and having God be pleased to show you His Son.) Abraham heard God. Not every man has ever heard God. Had Abraham never heard God, how would he have believed God? So God talking to Abraham was a gift that caused Abraham to believe God, to have faith in God. So…I see his faith as a gift. And I see my trust/faith as a gift too. In fact, I had locutions once, soon after I first came to God, and if anything, that actual hearing God has helped me in my trust maybe MORE than other believers.
So I can’t see that Abraham just did something on his own that was just humanly possible.

Thats my first difficulty.

I do see a difference in…Abraham not seeing Jesus clearly (or at all) and maybe not having his conscience as at ease as I do about his sins being forgiven? Possibly? But I can’t see the difference in trust that you do.

There's what we do...and then there is what God does...the election of grace. God translates people into His realm...or not.

Paul was trying to win Christ by appreciating just how far beyond us God is. It was in embracing his own weakness that God gave him strength through His grace.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Okay…
Sorry I’m having trouble understanding you recently. The thoughts that holiness and faith have different meanings between old and new testaments is puzzling me. Not sure if I’m thinking you’re saying something you aren’t or if…yeah, don’t know. Maybe I just need some sleep.

 

[Episkopos]

Okay…
Sorry I’m having trouble understanding you recently. The thoughts that holiness and faith have different meanings between old and new testaments is puzzling me. Not sure if I’m thinking you’re saying something you aren’t or if…yeah, don’t know. Maybe I just need some sleep.

God stated in the OT that He was going to do something new...novel. Something different. A change of level. So the stakes were raised.

What God accomplished was adding a new level to an existing structure. The NT is built on the OT.

With the NT we go from law to grace....from righteousness to holiness...from our righteousness, love and faith into HIS righteousness love and faith.

Does grace eliminate the law? No it fulfills it by empowering us by grace to fulfill it. Does the the law of flight eliminate the law of gravity? No it fulfills it and rises above it.

 

[Episkopos]

Once people have accepted a lie that seems to benefit the flesh....it becomes very difficult to repent towards something that brings loss to the flesh. So the carnal remain carnal and refuse to repent. They hold to what edifies the rebellious part of them. They revel in riches and increase and HATE the cross of Christ. We see this with the church of Laodicea. Will the church of Laodicea (our present church stage) repent? Of course not. Yet, some individuals will. Otherwise it would be pointless to shine a light on the current lies that have penetrated and perpetuated a religious Babylonian system

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In the OT we read that Abraham was imputed (attributed) with having righteousness by faith. We read...​

Gen. 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

What kind of righteousness was that? It was human righteousness. Abraham grasped that God could do anything...like a child would. He did what was possible for men to do in their own strength.



Another example of this same kind (human kind) of righteousness is shown to us with Phinehas. He was was justified by WORKS...that he did in his own strength. Again, same level of righteousness.

“Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed.” “And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.” Ps. 106: 30, 31

Neither of these examples points to grace. God is merely counting righteousness to those who have shown their own initiative towards right doing.

​

The confusion comes by misunderstanding Paul. ​

​

​

Romans 4:22-25 KJV​

And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; but for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.

People are taught to self-justify based on what only God can do in the future. An inheritance is only worth something if we are faithful till the end. In the meantime we are to move on into the high calling in Christ...to enter into Christ now. ​

So we see we can be justified both by faith AND by works.

But Paul only speaks of faith because it is scaleable into the faith OF Christ.

So we can be justified in our own faith (and works). BUT.....we can only enter into Christ by faith. No amount of works lets us into resurrection life in the here and now. To walk in His salvation we must enter into Him by faith. And the faith to do that is a gift. The gift of faith.



Gal. 3:22 "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."


Faith is given to those who already believe. In Christ we go from faith to faith...from our level of faith to His. On the holiness scale ALL are missing the mark. But the faith OF Christ (His faith not ours) is given (as a gift) to those who have already believed (with their human faith).

So in the NT we have 2 levels of faith to consider. The human faith is as good as Abrahams' in that it is for an inheritance on judgment day. But there is the faith OF Christ to consider...which we apprehend by entering personally into Him to walk as He walked.

Acts 26:18 "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness (actually "freedom") of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

Where is the faith that sanctifies us found? It is found only by entering INTO Christ. This is above the justification of men based on human faith and works. This is a supernatural faith that causes us to walk in Zion as Jesus walked. Even the smallest amount of this faith can move mountains. It translates us into the kingdom of His dear Son...right now!

So abraham was imputed with human righteousness? Did he not already have human righteousness?? What good is human righteousness to abraham? this makes no sense

 

[Episkopos]

So abraham was imputed with human righteousness? Did he not already have human righteousness?? What good is human righteousness to abraham? this makes no sense

FYI Abraham was human like us. So was Phinehas. The OT is based on what was possible to do in human strength. The NT is based on what is possible by the empowering grace of God...which was modeled by Jesus in His earthly walk. When we put on Christ we put on His strength and perfection.

God recognized righteousness in Abraham due to his faith in God.

Phinehas was recognized as righteous based on his works...what he did...and how he intervened by killing the offenders.


Which of these is scaleable? Only faith. That doesn't mean that people will not be justified by BOTH faith and works.

Why don't modern believers understand righteousness or grace? Self-serving doctrines that ignore the whole counsel of God. People have been conditioned to fit their beliefs into their bible reading rather than learn righteousness and actually understand the gospel.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

FYI Abraham was human like us. So was Phinehas. The OT is based on what was possible to do in human strength. The NT is based on what is possible by the empowering grace of God...which was modeled by Jesus in His earthly walk. When we put on Christ we put on His strength and perfection.

God recognized righteousness in Abraham due to his faith in God.

Phinehas was recognized as righteous based on his works...what he did...and how he intervened by killing the offenders.


Which of these is scaleable? Only faith. That doesn't mean that people will not be justified by BOTH faith and works.

Why don't modern believers understand righteousness or grace? Self-serving doctrines that ignore the whole counsel of God. People have been conditioned to fit their beliefs into their bible reading rather than learn righteousness and actually understand the gospel.

It does not say God recognized righteousness in Abraham

It says because Abraham believed, God imputed to abraham his righteousness.

Abrahams righteousness is as filthy rags.. all people. ot or nt. can not be saved unless they are imputed gods righteousness.. if left to our own righteousness. we are lost.; because all have sinned and fall short.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Once people have accepted a lie that seems to benefit the flesh....it becomes very difficult to repent towards something that brings loss to the flesh.

Fallen human nature is just like that though. Whatever gives ease to them in the temporal is sought and adored, even if the cost is fetters.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

With the NT we go from law to grace....from righteousness to holiness...from our righteousness, love and faith into HIS righteousness love and faith.

Does grace eliminate the law? No it fulfills it by empowering us by grace to fulfill it. Does the the law of flight eliminate the law of gravity? No it fulfills it and rises above it.

That’s what I desire without cease. To apprehend that. To know that love.

 

[Episkopos]

It does not say God recognized righteousness in Abraham

It says because Abraham believed, God imputed to abraham his righteousness.

Abrahams righteousness is as filthy rags.. all people. ot or nt. can not be saved unless they are imputed gods righteousness.. if left to our own righteousness. we are lost.; because all have sinned and fall short.

This is the biggest error possible. I can't believe the modern teachings on how easily people are led astray.

God did not impute His righteousness to Abraham. That's definitely not in the Bible. But it is preached as such by false teachers.

read the Bible for yourself...without the blinders...without adding in fables or taking away from what is written.

Human righteousness is less than God's. So what? Our strength is less than God's. So what. Does that mean we are powerless to love others as ourselves?

Your confusion is in not knowing the power of Christ. By this lack you are making God's righteousness to be as filthy rags...since you claim both to sin all the time AND be as righteous as God. No one can be more confused than this.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is the biggest error possible. I can't believe the modern teachings on how easily people are led astray.

God did not impute His righteousness to Abraham. That's definitely not in the Bible. But it is preached as such by false teachers.

read the Bible for yourself...without the blinders...without adding in fables or taking away from what is written.

Human righteousness is less than God's. So what? Our strength is less than God's. So what. Does that mean we are powerless to love others as ourselves?

Your confusion is in not knowing the power of Christ. By this lack you are making God's righteousness to be as filthy rags...since you claim both to sin all the time AND be as righteous as God. No one can be more confused than this.

My friend, if anyone here is preaching a false gospel and heresy it is you

it is nonsense to claim God imputed Abraham's own righteousness to himself. This is proven in romans 4. where Paul said if abraham was found by works (his own righteousness) he would have something to boast about..

You need to stop boasting in the wortks of men, and learn to recieve the work of god

 

[marks]

My friend, if anyone here is preaching a false gospel and herey it is you

it is nonsense to claim God imputed Abraham's own righteousness to himself. This is proven in romans 4. where Paul said if abraham was found by works (his own righteousness) he would have something to boast about..

You need to stop boasting in the wortkd of men, and learn to recieve the work of god

Romans 4 is a very detailed treatise about how God imputes righteousness to us quite apart from anything we do, aside from believing in Him. The passage is filled with plain words telling us that God counts believing as righteousness, and in doing so, He justifies the ungodly. Ungodly people believe God, and God justifies them, imputing righteousness to them, who were before, ungodly.

This is not about "identifying righteous people by whether they believe", this is about how unrighteous people are made righteous by God when they believe in Him. They are declared justified in God's forgiveness of their sins, and are made righteous in being born from Him in rebirth.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

God did not impute His righteousness to Abraham. That's definitely not in the Bible. But it is preached as such by false teachers.

oh…yes, I’ve thought that to be righteous, on a human level, must mean the same thing as the one sinner praying, so that leaving his prayer “justified” meant the same thing as “righteous” and that God said of the man that he had done the right/righteous/just thing by saying he left justified. When a man tells the truth about himself, God sees the man has done the right thing.
But of course that doesn’t mean the man left there and always continued to do what was right/righteous in Gods eyes. And we see a list of kings in the OT where God says of certain kings, and he did what was right in Gods sight, nevertheless, he did not tear down all the idols of his father. (Some translations say he didn’t tear down all “the high places” rather than “all the idols.”)

So even with the kings who “did right” or who were “wholly devoted to the Lord” it says that “nevertheless” of not getting rid of all idol worship in the land. People are stiffnecked I guess.

So I can see that in the OT (and as concerns us), men don’t always do what is the right thing in Gods sight. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t. I know I don’t always. My conscience tells me, so I admit my poverty of spirit and ask for what I lack.

But as you’ve said before, if you remain with that honesty, contriteness of heart and humility, God makes a place for you among the righteous of the nations, of whom the holy will rule over. That’s very good news. To someone like me, who was raised being always rejected and being told I was never good or perfect enough in anything I did or said, it’s a great relief that God is not like my earthly parent.

And there is a lot of hope that God will lift me up into walking in His Spirit in His holiness if I take that low and truthful place in my heart. But to inherit the earth sounds pretty good and blessed, even though we continue to race to enter into that more.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Romans 4 is a very detailed treatise about how God imputes righteousness to us quite apart from anything we do, aside from believing in Him. The passage is filled with plain words telling us that God counts believing as righteousness, and in doing so, He justifies the ungodly. Ungodly people believe God, and God justifies them, imputing righteousness to them, who were before, ungodly.

This is not about "identifying righteous people by whether they believe", this is about how unrighteous people are made righteous by God when they believe in Him. They are declared justified in God's forgiveness of their sins, and are made righteous in being born from Him in rebirth.

Much love!

Amen,

We as sinners have to get out of our own way and admit who we are. and how we deserve judgment. Until then, we will still believe we have something to offer for salvation. when there is nothing we can do..

 

[marks]

Romans 5:3-5 KJV
3) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4) And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5) And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

I like the JP Green translation here,

Romans 5:5 LITV
And the hope does not put us to shame, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit given to us;

God's love is poured into our hearts to be poured out. We are are the vessel. We are the crack in the rock from which living water bursts forth. We can only give what we have first received, and if we do not know the true love of God how shall we ever give that to others?

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Romans 5:3-5 KJV
3) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4) And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5) And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

I like the JP Green translation here,

Romans 5:5 LITV
And the hope does not put us to shame, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit given to us;

God's love is poured into our hearts to be poured out. We are are the vessel. We are the crack in the rock from which living water bursts forth. We can only give what we have first received, and if we do not know the true love of God how shall we ever give that to others?

Much love!

amen

God fills our fuel tank to overflowing so we can in turn take the excess fuel to help fill other peoples fuel tank, as he uses others to help us