In-depth Bible Study on Eternal Punishment

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MatthewG

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(From PDF | The Christian Anarchist Crookbook | cult) expressed permission from the author was given to be able to share for the edification of learning and benefit of others.

(This is now completed) - follow the links and you will be able to stay tuned to the typed out information.

#57 SUMMARY OF ETERNAL PUNISHMENT


Within Christianity, there are several scenarios or perspectives from where "after-life punishment" must be considered.

- First, from the Old Testament perspective.

- Second, from the New Testament to 70AD perspective, and

- Third, after 70 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem

-​
In order to grasp the third scenario (which applies to us in our day), the first and second must be understood. Let's look at each of them respectively.

The First Scenario of Afterlife-Punishment

  • From everything the Old Testament seems to suggest, the afterlife destination for every departed soul was sheol, known as "the covered place."
  • Sheol (which was later translated hell by the King James translators) consisted of a dark holding cell (so to speak) which was also known as a prison and a place likened unto a beautiful place of rest, called paradise.
  • While the two different names tend to describe very different environments, we must note that they were both part, or under the roof, of the covered place. In other words, sheol (the covered place) had two compartments - prison and paradise - but both places were separated from the presence of God.
  • Based on the parabolic teachings of Jesus there was an impassable chasm or gulf between prison and paradise (also called Abraham's bosom) which was separated them from each other.
  • It is of note that all Old Testament Characters - from Cain to Abraham, and from Moses to Isaiah - went to Sheol when they died. Some (the faithless) went to prison and others (the faithful went to paradise) But all remained separated from God until Christ's Antoine work.
 
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MatthewG

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The Second Scenario of After-life Punishment

From the Gospels to 70AD

This scenario is what most Christians today read about in the Bible and believe is the destination for all who have not received Jesus as Lord and Savior now - that there is "eternal suffering" waiting them in endless and literal flames of hell. At first glance, especially in King James, the New Testament seems to support this idea. We will spend our time here illustrating that this view is at best misleading, and at worst, completely wrong.

  • Whether hell or lake of fire, the Bible describes the reactions people have to them as painful. "Weeping, gnashing of teeth, torments, and tormented in flames."
  • The physical descriptions include:
  • "Darkness, out darkness, chains of darkness, and the blackness of darkness" and then ever paradoxically, "hell fire, a furnace of fire, everlasting fire, fire that shall not be quenched, damnation, (a place where_ "the wrath of God abides on them", "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, from the glory of His power, "the perdition of ungodly men," "torments ascending up forever and ever, no rest day or night," "everlasting contempt, and "a lake of fire."
  • Those who are said to go there are described as:
  • "them that work iniquity," (listen) "the children of the Kingdom (Matthew 8:12), people who say, "thou fool" are in danger of it, "all things that offend," "those on the left hand," "the goats," those whose feet or hands offend," Jesus described one inhabitant only saying he was a "rich man who lived sumptuously everyday," "Those who have done evil," "raging waves," "wandering stars," "of the beast," and regarding the Lake of Fire, Revelation 21:8 says these are they who will have their part in it . . . ready?

  • "The fearful, the unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars.
  • These are not a place anyone anytime would want to step foot it.
  • Taking all of this into account, we hav ethos eww believe hell and the lake of of fire consists of literal flames being applied to the actual flesh of a resident forever and ever.
  • Any deviation from this interpretation is considered heretical.
  • And while I do NOT down place the torments of after-life punishments experienced in hell and/or the Lake of Fire, I am personally unconvinced that these interpretations and applications hold water - especially in the afterlife of people today.

We will spend the rest of this segment explaining why. Let's begin with just a minor example observed from scripture.

  • When Jesus had a change to tell a story about hell, in the story of the Rich man and Lazarus, He was the Rich man (while described as awfully thirsty) carrying on a rather intelligent conversation with those the Paradise side of hell. I would think if his flesh was literally on fire (with literal flames) no such conversation would be possible.
  • We might wonder why Jesus didn't say "and Lazarus look down from Abrahams bosom and saw the Rich man on fire, and screaming in unconscionable pain?:
  • We have to be careful not to manically apply literalism to places where God is speaking in concepts. Admittedly, sometimes it's hard tot tell which is which.
 

MatthewG

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Continued from post #2.

Now, one thing almost all of us do - partially because it is convenient - is to refer to hell as the catchphrase for where everyone has gone (or will go) who has not gone to heaven.

In light of scripture, this practice not only adds to the confusion of the topic but is wrong.

Again going back the Old Testament we have the Hebrew word Sheol.

And really this place ought to be referred to as the realm of the unknown. The Hebrews translated Sheol as the grave, as a pit, and a place (listen) for both the evil AND the good. In essence, Sheol is the covered holding tank for souls prior to Christ ascending.

It was comprised of prison and paradise.

The Old Testament translators frequently called it hell but remember, it was the holding place for all disembodied spirits. In the New Testament, the word finds its equivalent in the Greek word Hades. Again, and unfortunately, it is in the English that hades is translated to hell (as in the burning place).

We read in Revelation 20:14 that the keys to Hades and Hades itself will be cast into the Lake of Fire so we can see that it is different from the Lake of Fire . . . that hell is NOT the lake of fire.

Got that?

Another term used for hell is the Greek word Tartarus, and it is only used once (in 2 Peter 2:4). It is best-translated pit of gloom, a pit of darkness and is considered by some to be lower parts of Hades - the Prison part. Prior to Christ's Victory, those in Paradise and those in Prison of Sheol or Hades waited.

Christ took paradise with Him to heaven but the prison part remained as the hold tank (so the speak) for the faithless.

Gehenna is another word translated by Kings James as hell. It was actually a real place - a trash heap in the southeast of Jerusalem - where fires burned the bodies of criminals and the remains of dead animals. It was formerly a place where human sacrifices took place, offered to the pagan god Molech so it had a VERY bad association with the Jews and Jesus used it to describe prison part of Sheol, Hades, Tartarus.

Here many people believe that this describes the ultimate end of people who reject Christ. But is a term used symbolically.

Even James the apostles used the term to describe the human tongue - so this is NOT an allusion to the Lake of Fire spoken of in Revelation.

In other words, hell and the Lake of fire (with all of its inherent descriptions) are two different places. Get this right and you will be well ahead of the game in terms of understanding.
 

MatthewG

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Continued from post #3

If we turn to Revelation Chapter 20:13 we read that at the time of the Great White Throne judgment:

- "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."​

The best definition of eternal punishment is found in the next few verses of Revelation 20 where it reads:

- "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the life of fire."​

So if we really want to argue where unbelievers went after life in Jesus day, we would say they first went to hell (the dark, unwelcoming place) and then to the lake of fire when Jesus returned.

Again they are NOT one in the same.

Now, scripture tells us that the Lake of Fire was prepared for Satan and His angels. Jesus tells us so in Matthew 25:41, saying:

- "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting prepared of the devil and his angels."​

Take note, it was NOT prepared for Man.

Revelation 20:7 and 10 tell us that after Christ's return SAtan will be thrown into the Lake of Fire so if we considered the contents in "Eschatology" (for more see: PDF | The Christian Anarchist Crookbook | cult ), I think we are mistaken to believe he is roaming free today.

So, let me briefly summarize. I think we could all agree that when scripture speaks of Hades, Gehnna, Tartarus, Sheol it is where all unbelievers in the New Testament times were immediately upon death); that this Is a dark and dreaded place of of torment but it is NOT the place of fire and it will give up its dead to be judged later. Then, what we are really talking about when we are speaking on the eternality of suffering in flames is the place scripture calls the Lake of Fire.

Accordingly . . .

  • Hell is not the Lake of Fire.
  • Hell does not have flames but is dark and tormenting.
  • Hell gives up its dead.
  • The Lake of Fire was prepared for the Devil and his angels.
  • In the New TEstament Times the Lake of Fire was a future experience for some.
  • And that the Lake of Fire is only described in Revelation chapter 19-21.
To the next post: #6
 
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atpollard

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One cannot avoid the REALITY that the fate of the deceased before the “final judgement” is inherently different from the fate of those same people after the “final judgement” … just as the fate of the dead was different before the Incarnation/resurrection/ascension from after.
 

MatthewG

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Continued from post #4

So what is this Lake of Fire? Revelation describes it in one sentence: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."



Everyone of us experiences the first death. 1 Corinthians 15:22 says it - "For as in Adam all die,"

But not everyone will experience the second death. Who experiences this second death? what is it and is it eternal?

Revelation tells us plainly who will experience the second death.

Revelation 20:15 says, speaking of those people in that day and age:

- "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (And we know that this is considered the second death).

  • Let's pause here and gather up our thoughts in summary. Since hell will give up its dead, we cannot say (and be correct) that hell is eternal.
  • No matter how tormenting and dark the holding tank may be, it will end, and all those in it will be brought forth the great white throne and will be judged. This has occurred at the end of the age.
  • If their names were NOT found written in the Lambs Book of Life, they were to be cast into the Lake of Fire which was not created for them! It was created for Satan and his angels. Therefore, is the Lake of Fire eternal? We will see.
 

MatthewG

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Continued from post number #6


Reading the King James (and probably your NIV's and ESV's) we are presented with English words that tend to say in absolute terms, yes, the Lake of Fire suffering is eternal, everlasting, endless, etc. etc. After all, it is called the second death right?


(By the way, have you ever considered the fact that while all human beings die and are spiritually dead because of Adam we are all still existing after experiences these deaths? Weird huh?) Anyway. Let's take an example from the King James. Matthew 25:41 Jesus describes "the smoke of their torment going up forever and ever," and Revelation 20:10 says, "They will be tormented day and night forever and ever."



Such passages lead us to believe that the punishment is unending or forever. If how the King James Translators translated this passage then the idea would be sound. But here's the deal: Where we have the word eternal or everlasting in the passages founded in the King James and other translations, other Bible Translations, (like "Youngs LITERAL translations", or "Weymouth's New Testament" or Rotherham's Emphasized Bible", or the "Concordant New Testament") say something a bit different. They say "age-abiding" torments.



As an example, where the King James says in Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."


These other translations read:


"And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,', but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'"


OR


"And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."


"And These shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."


Why the difference?



It all comes down to the Greek noun "Aion" and the adjective, "Aionious." In the King James, which takes this Greek word and translates it, "Forever and ever," other MORE literal translations of the Greek to the English would translate it, "unto the ages of ages."

To the Next Post: #9

-- just sharing a song may not be everyones taste

 
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Skovand1075

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Sheol may have been turned into hell, same as with hades by the KJV but the bulk of translators don’t.

Hell and Hades are not the same place. Hades is the place of the dead . Hell is the lake of fire, aka, the second death. The KJV is notoriously known among scholars for not being a good translation and causes a lot of confusion.

I’ve mentioned elsewhere but this is one of the best books on hell that I’ve read. It’s definitely in the top 10. It’s Edward Fudge’s “ The Fire that Consumes “.

There is also a fantastic podcast hosted primarily by the budding Old Testament scholar , Chris Date , called “ Rethinking Hell “ this is to their website.
Rethinking Hell | Exploring Evangelical Conditionalism (Annihilationism)

T
he podcast has several hundred hours of discussions and debates on this.
 

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MatthewG

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Continued from post #7

--

What is an Age? A period of time.

The noun aheeohn (aion) means "age." Period. A specific period of time. It begins and it ends. But when some translators got to the adjective, they honestly translated it to the opposite meaning, "without end, without beginning, without beginning or ending."

I would first and foremost suggest that this I at best a dubious development of the adjective from the noun.

I can say this because the adjective simply does not work in many passage of the New Testament. For example (and you can take note of these passages) Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; and Philemon 15 -- all of them define "aionous" as the world, which had a beginning, and will have an end, instead of as eternal.

But let's explain this another way.

When we take the Greek Word "lion" and it's adjective, "aionous" we known they have given meaning- from the root word age or eon.

Every time the Greek terms are used they ought to translate into age-related phraseology. Instead of remaining true to the definitional root of the Greek Word, the King James translators took anon and aionous and subjectively translated the terms depending on the context of what the passage was talking about and according to the religious traditions of their day!

Why would they do this? Because they were intent on maintaining doctrinal purity as they translated.

In most cases, this proved beneficial and congruent but in the cast of eternal punishment , it was a fail. So along comes these other scholars (like Roherham, and Young or Wehmouth) and instead of translating Greek words into English words they thought fit best, they produced literal translation of each Greek word every time it showed up in the text.

Therefore, Rotherham, and (other literal) translations read consistently regarding the Greek. Every time we come across the Greek word axons or aionious in them we find an age-related definition. But with the King James (and others) which took up doctrinal causes as their priority, we are presented with prejudicial confusion.

To the Next Post: #11
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Within Christianity, there are several scenarios or perspectives from where "after-life punishment" must be considered.

- First, from the Old Testament perspective.

- Second, from the New Testament to 70AD perspective, and

- Third, after 70 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem

-​
In order to grasp the third scenario (which applies to us in our day), the first and second must be understood. Let's look at each of them respectively.

The First Scenario of Afterlife-Punishment

  • From everything the Old Testament seems to suggest, the afterlife destination for every departed soul was sheol, known as "the covered place."
  • Sheol (which was later translated hell by the King James translators) consisted of a dark holding cell (so to speak) which was also known as a prison and a place likened unto a beautiful place of rest, called paradise.
  • While the two different names tend to describe very different environments, we must note that they were both part, or under the roof, of the covered place. In other words, sheol (the covered place) had two compartments - prison and paradise - but both places were separated from the presence of God.
  • Based on the parabolic teachings of Jesus there was an impassable chasm or gulf between prison and paradise (also called Abraham's bosom) which was separated them from each other.
  • It is of note that all Old Testament Characters - from Cain to Abraham, and from Moses to Isaiah - went to Sheol when they died. Some (the faithless) went to prison and others (the faithful went to paradise) But all remained separated from God until Christ's Antoine work.
By what your saying you seem to think the soul of human beings to be a literal living person that goes to a literal place when a human being dies. This however doesn't seem to be in agreement with the scriptures. From my study of the scriptures when a human being dies he/she is no longer a living soul or living person who can literally exist anywhere.

What Genesis 2:7 says is very clear to me about what makes a human being a living soul or living person.This scripture tells us that God took dust from the ground and formed a flesh and blood human body. Then he blew the breath of life(spirit) into that flesh and blood human body and that flesh and blood human body became a living soul or living person. So this scripture is telling us that it's the breath of life(spirit) combined with the flesh and blood human body that makes a living soul or living person. So if the breath of life(spirit) leaves the flesh and blood human body the living soul or living person ceases to exist. So the breath of life(spirit) separately, on it's own, without a flesh and blood human body, isn't a living soul or living person.
An example of what I'm trying to say is when hydrogen oxygen are combined it makes water, but you take either hydrogen or oxygen away and the water ceases to exist. It's the same with a human as a living person. It requires a flesh and blood human body and the the breath of life (spirit) combined for a living soul or living person to exist, take either one away and the living soul or living person ceases to exist.
So I don't see how a literal living person can go to any literal place that's called Sheol, or Hades, or Hell, when no literal living person exists to go to any literal place. These words are used symbolically to help people understand, that those that God has judged worthy of a resurrection back into existence as a living person, are in God's memory. All those who are in God's memory are guaranteed to be resurrected back into existence as a living person.
 
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MatthewG

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Continued from post :#9

Why do I say this?

Because of the King James translators, instead of ever translating axons and aionious in terms of the English word, "Age" ( a period of time with a beginning and an end) they translate the terms 197 times using all of the following English words.

For the noun Aion they used the English words:

Ever (72 times)

World (40)

NEVER (7)

Evermore (2)

Course (1)

And for the adjective, they translated the Greek word aionous

Eternal (42)

Everlasting (25)

World (3)

and Ever (1)

Only twice out of the 197 times were the Greek words in the King James translated correctly! The exact same Greek word in one place is translated eternal and in another place, it is translated "never," and in another, it is translated, "world." Amazing!

There are forty places in the King James were the Greek Word anon is translated "world." The greek word for world is Kosmos, not lion.

Aion means age.

So if we read these literal translations we discover that the Bible, from the Greek, literally does not teach eternality of the lake of fire but an "age-abiding" term in the lake of fire. This makes sense when human go tot a place that was created for SAtan and his angels.

"The smoke ascends up unto the ages of ages, not forever and ever."

Reading the Greek properly, we would read the following passage like this:

God has a "purpose for the ages" - Ephesians 3:11

He is the "King of the ages" 1 Timothy 1:17

He prepared "the ages by His Word" Hebrews 11:3

A final thought:

There are two very simple Greek words that would have cleared all of this up had they been used. They are akatalous and aperantos. They both clearly mean endless.

1 Timothy speaks of endless genealogies (akatalous) and Hebrews 7:16 speaks of the power of an endless life (apernatos). The word immortal (athanatos) and immortality (aptharsia) also indicate never-ending-ness but none of these clearly defined terms (which denote eternal and endless) are ever used to describe hell, damnation, punishment for sin, or a time in the Lake of fire.
 

MatthewG

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Continued from post #11

Additionally, there are two simple prevalent adverbs in the New Testament which would have made the argument decisive regarding punishment being eternal - aei (which means always) and Pantote (which means evermore) but again neither of them are ever used to described damnation, hell, punishment for sin, or time in the Lake of Fire.

It is of interested that the super strong phrase "to the uttermost" is used only once. Does it describe hell? Or punishment in the lake of fire? Nope - Neither. It describes God's ability at saving us.

Judge 25 says the glory of Christ shall last "to ALL the ages . . ." had this been applied only once to punishment the argument would be over.

But it's not.

To the next post: #17
 
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Charlie24

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Continued from post #11

Additionally, there are two simple prevalent adverbs in the New Testament which would have made the argument decisive regarding punishment being eternal - aei (which means always) and Pantote (which means evermore) but again neither of them are ever used to described damnation, hell, punishment for sin, or time in the Lake of Fire.

It is of interested that the super strong phrase "to the uttermost" is used only once. Does it describe hell? Or punishment in the lake of fire? Nope - Neither. It describes God's ability at saving us.

Judge 25 says the glory of Christ shall last "to ALL the ages . . ." had this been applied only once to punishment the argument would be over.

But it's not.

You have reasoned yourself into UR membership!

If the lake of fire is temporary for man, meaning he will get out, show us in scripture where man gets out.

Until then what you have is a theory devised man who wishes to lessen his punishment for sin!
 

Charlie24

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You have reasoned yourself into UR membership!

If the lake of fire is temporary for man, meaning he will get out, show us in scripture where man gets out.

Until then what you have is a theory devised man who wishes to lessen his punishment for sin!

The scripture plainly tells us that "whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev. 20:15

Now show us where man gets out and you will have proven your point!
 
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Charlie24

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This is a two-fold damnable heresy!

Not only does it teach that man can sin in unbelief and suffer only a partial punishment, it is using God's saving Grace against Him to lessen that punishment!
 
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MatthewG

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Continued from post #12

The Greek phrase "for perpetuity" could have also been used to describe the Lake of Fire punishment - but is is only used to describe God and ultimate santification.

No Greek word that truly is used to describe forever, forevermore, evermore, always, endless, to the uttermost, etc. is ever connected to after-life punishment . . . but the terms are related to age (to a beginning and an end) are.


Let's conclude with a statement from the book of THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT ( edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan).

"In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (pg 16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Tessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ. The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgement and condemnation, death, and destruction, Hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1 Timothy 2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Colossians 1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Corinthians 15:28)."

So there are some of the thoughts on the second perspective we have to consider relative to hell, the lake of Fire, or what we collectively call afterlife punishment and how they applied to the people in Jesus day.

But there's more. A lot more, which we will summarize here.

Thus far we have asked, "Is Hell eternal?" And biblically speaking, the answer is "Not, it is not. Hell gives up her dead at the Great White Throne judgement." We know this from Revelation 20:13. Check it and see.
 

MatthewG

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Continued from post #17

If we say they will get out, we face some degree or another picturing universalism. But if we say they will never, ever get out, we are left with the subsequent questions that bear some weight like: "Are those in the Lake of Fire (who from what Jesus says encompassed most of humanity) "literally burned" with "Literal flames of fire" "Forever and ever and ever" in the worst pain and anguish imaginable and without end?"

OR

"Are they annihilated? Burning so deep and badly that they ultimately and totally consumed?"

Or

"After a time of purposeful suffering aimed at purging and not punishment, are they let out, only to come to faith and enter His all in all at some level or another?"

The idea of no after-life loses or purging is not an option and since we know that God is just and all will reap what they have sown in this life we must dig deeper. Hang with me.

  • There are four passages in the book of Revelation (which is the only book that mentions the Lake of Fire) which tie in a unique word to that place - brimstone.
  • Revelation 14:10; Revelation 19:20; Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 21:8
  • The word brimstone was translated from the Greek word "theion" - T-H-E-I-O-N.
  • You probably recognize the Greek word - "These" - means God - and it's where we get the word "theology," which means the study of God.
  • Additionally, the Greek word THEIOS means divine.
  • So it is really easy to see that the word brimstone, which comes from the greek word THEION is in the family with other Greek words used to describe God.
  • In Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament, the word brimstone is defined as fire from heaven used to purify.
  • IF you check Strong's Concordance (or Thayers) you will discover that brimstone is connected to God's divine power to purify NOT punish.
  • So we have to also ask, is the fire
- For punishment or purging

- for torture or trying

- for cruelty or for correction?
 

MatthewG

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Continued from post #18

  • As an interesting aside, where is the Lake of Fire actually located?
  • There are passages in Revelation 14 that might surprise you where the fire and brimstone exists, or at least who is present amidst them.
- Revelation 14:9-11 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, if any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of GOd, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascenders up forever and ever: and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever recievth the mark of his name."
  • From these passages, we can see that those tormented in fire and brimstone are "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb!"
  • We know from scripture that God does not take pleasure in this type of death - in any death of the sinner and wicked.
  • Ezekiel 33:11 reads
- "Say unto them, As I live saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye, from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

- 2 Samuel 14:14 says something interesting, in my opinion alluding to God and His ways of redemption, saying "For we must need die, and are as water split from the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him."

  • From all these passages and the information they provide, it seems we see the lake as having a few different elements present that what we might have thought were there before.
  • We have been taught by almost every faction of modern Christianity that the Lake of Fire is God tormenting Evil men for the sake of cruel punishment.
  • Listen - this assessment is absolutely correct . . . if the fire is literal and unending.
  • It certainly couldn't be LOVE that forces most of the world of unbeliever into the flames If they never get out right?
  • But we can say it is HIs Love, if they do and will get out.
  • In other words, if those who do not receive Christ shed blood in this life - those who die unsaved - are banished to eternal torments and fires, those torments must (MUST) be based in cruelty and torture . . . because they have no redemptive value.

  • So let's take a look at the word "tormented" in Revelation 14:10 - the passage that says they "will be tormented by fire and brimstone in the Holy Angels and Lambs Presence."
 

MatthewG

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Continued from post #19

Ready for this?

  • The word translated tormented in Strongs, Vines, and Thayers is "basinizo" which comes from the Greek word that literally means "to put to the test by rubbing on the touchstone."
  • Touchstones are pieces of rock or flint that are used to grind off elements or particles in the processing of alloys or other metals.
  • From this definition, we can see that the process in the Lake is not one of a mindless, endless torture for the sake of cruelty but one refining, purging, rubbing off the rough edges, so the speak.
I find this interesting because in it we discover real meaning - loving meaning - in something Jesus says in Matthew 21:44. Here Jesus had just given the parable of the wicked husbandman to the scribes and Pharisees. He ends the parable by telling these religious leaders - "Therefore I say unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation brining forth the fruits thereof."

  • They had the True Messiah come and they rejected Him and therefore, Jesus tells them, the Kingdom is going to be taken from them and given to another nation (the Gentiles) which would bring forth fruit.
  • Then he says something interesting relative to this touchstone concept in the very next verse:
- "Whoever shall fail on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."

  • The nation refused to fall upon Him the Rock or stone and humbly receive Him. Therefore, He says, the other option is He will fall on them and grind them to powder.
  • I would suggest, in light of the meaning Torments found in Revelation 14, and the fact that those in the Lake of Fire will be subject to brimstone and fire in the presence of the Holy Angels and the Lamb that again, we are talking about - painful mandatory refinement - grinding them down upon the willful - a grinding that, producing friction simultaneously produces heat or fire.
Some things to think about.

  • We also note that Jesus and His apostles are constantly, warning the people of their day and age that "the wrath of God was to come" upon them.
  • It will be poured out on those who reject His Son.
  • Revelation speaks of this wrath, and fierce anger of GOd, as being contained in a cup - a container of limited dimensions.
  • A loving, forgiving, long-suffering God would not have wrath that runs like a river forever. It is limited, justly appropriate to the crime, and delivered in appropriate amounts - like strips that come to some as a few, and to others as many (Jesus said that).