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Featured Incarnation

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by BARNEY BRIGHT, Jun 30, 2018.

  1. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

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    IN Christendom the bridge between God and man is called “Incarnation.” The sense of the word “incarnation” is that God took upon himself the nature of man in the person of Jesus Christ. He thereby became a God-man.

    Although the idea of a God-man is not foreign to paganism, yet that the Logos should become flesh belongs to Christendom alone, say these religionists. They maintain that pagan religions teach an apotheosis or glorification of man, that they do not teach an incarnation of the true God. According to the English church historian Charles Hardwick, if we purge pagan incarnations from all the lewd and Bacchanalian adjuncts that disfigure and debase them, still they come definitely short of the doctrine of incarnation as taught in Christendom, despite the striking similarities.

    But merely to deny the doctrine’s paganity does not establish the teaching of incarnation as being of Christianity. In his book The Creative Christ, E. Drown associates Christendom’s concept of incarnation with pagan Greek mythology. He says: “This idea of substance . . . found its way into Christian theology from Greek sources. The result was that the Incarnation was too often interpreted in physical instead of in moral terms.”

    Then there are objections of another character. An eminent professor, Dr. Charles A. Briggs, who was also a priest of the Protestant Episcopal Church, taught that the virgin birth was only a “minor matter connected with the Incarnation . . . [that it] cannot be so essential as many people have supposed.” To Adolf Harnack, German theologian and professor of theology, Jesus was not God in the flesh, but just another Jewish rabbi. Otto Pfleiderer, German Protestant theologian and professor ordinarius of theology, was amazed at the “countless parallels in the legends of pagan heroes and Christian saints,” including that of Jesus Christ.

    That there should be conflicting opinions on this doctrine is not at all surprising, since the doctrine of incarnation finds no basis in the Bible, the only reliable authority for truth. (John 17:17) The ancient Jews in their long history never once declared any of their judges, kings, generals, priests or prophets to be gods. The Hebrews and the Jewish Christians utterly abhorred the defilement of heathen mythology. These facts render impossible the fanciful notion that Christian Jews absorbed the history of Jesus from pagan mythology. Neither the Bible nor faithful first-century Christians maintained the pagan concept that Jesus was a God-man. Therefore, when renegade Christians tried to sell the pagan God-man concept as Christian, they found the going rough. The doctrine itself was not crystalized until some three hundred years after Jesus’ day and not defined until A.D. 451 at the Council of Chalcedon. The noted American theologian, Henry P. Van Dusen, whose Presbyterian religion teaches that Jesus was a God-man, in his book World Christianity, page 75, calls Chalcedon’s definition of Christ’s nature “distilled nonsense.”

    During the first two centuries there was considerable opposition to the doctrine of incarnation. The Ebionites, a Jewish Christian sect that began in the first century, maintained that Jesus had a natural birth, that he was not God incarnate. Arius, a presbyter of Alexandria, who lived toward the beginning of the fourth century, taught that Jesus was neither coeternal nor coequal with God, that he was the head of all creation, but not “of one substance with the Father.” Docetists, a sect of Jewish Christians that flourished in the second century, believed that Jesus’ body was merely apparent, a vision, a delusion, not material. Gnosticism was a fusion of independent “Christian” beliefs. Its contention was that evil is inherent in matter and that for that reason Jesus’ body could not have been material. Valentinus, the most prominent leader of the Gnostic movement, taught that Jesus’ ethereal body passed through Mary but was not born of her. Others said Jesus had two wills, one human, the other divine, and so forth.

    It was from this hodgepodge of conflicting opinions that Christendom has received her incarnation doctrine. Since some thought Jesus was man and others maintained he was God, the council at Nicaea A.D. 325 headed by a pagan political emperor, namely, Constantine, decided on a God-man to please both sides. This doctrine, though unfounded in Scripture, is generally believed by Protestants and Catholics to this day. The Catholic Encyclopedia states bluntly: “Christ is God.” A Presbyterian Church publication speaks of Jesus as “God and man.”

    WAS JESUS A GOD-MAN?

    Regardless of what any council or man has said about Jesus’ nature, the only reliable source of religious truth is the Bible. This Word reveals that Jesus is God’s Son and as such he was not and is not God. Jesus himself said: “I am God’s Son.” To Mary the angel Gabriel said: “What is born will be called holy, God’s Son.” Nothing is said of a God-man or a man-God. Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus called a “God-man” or “God incarnate.” Such assumptions are strictly human illusions tainted with paganism.—John 10:36; Luke 1:34, 35; 2:21.

    In the Scriptures Jesus is referred to as “the beginning of the creation by God.” He is God’s first creation, called the Word of God or Logos. After Adam’s sin, the Almighty God purposed to send this only-begotten Son of his to earth to redeem man from sin. He was to become the second perfect man or second Adam. This would necessitate his laying aside heavenly life to be born a man. No incarnation, but a perfect human birth. This was accomplished by holy spirit or the power of God, as Luke 1:26-38 shows. He was born of the maiden Mary and was called Jesus, who became “the man.”—Rev. 3:14; John 1:29; 19:5; 1 Cor. 15:45.

    Was Jesus flesh and blood? John tells us: “The Word became flesh and resided among us.” Of Jesus Paul said: “Since the ‘young children’ are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly partook of the same things.” Had Jesus been a God-man, he would have been higher than angels and man. The Scriptures tell us that he was made “a little lower than angels.” Neither was he coequal with his Father, for he himself said: “The Father is greater than I am.”—John 1:14; Heb. 2:14, 9; John 14:28;Phil. 2:5-7.

    If Jesus was an incarnation, then he was not the second Adam; his life, death and resurrection would all be a lie. The Christian faith would be in vain. We would be still in our sins without hope. Thank God his Word remains true! Christ is true. He was the second Adam, a perfect man who gave his soul “a ransom in exchange for many.” Those who teach that Jesus was a God-man have no Scriptural basis for saying so.




     
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  2. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    @BARNEY BRIGHT BB: I'm not a JW or of any religious persuasion, although I believe Jesus was 100% human being for the reasons you cited and more, in your OP. I do not agree that Jesus pre-existed before his birth though. He was only in the mind of God per scripture and born at the appropriate time. I just wrote an OP/thread touching this subject.

    I do not agree with how John 1-3 and John 1-14a was bastardized to force Jesus into pre-existing being. Greek work 'Logos' is never a person let alone the man Jesus. Jesus became the instrument and vehicle for the logos(word), the critical execution of the plan of salvation for mankind. This plan involving Jesus to die for our sins was with (his mind) God from the start (John 1-3). They were as one thought and in on purpose when it all 'went down,' especially in those last 3 years. The Father is the work and Jesus was obedient throughout. Jesus did his part with his bloody death and his love for his Father and us, ungrateful beings. Grace and full of truth came on earth.....and turned our wretched state into miraculous gift for those that believed in him..Amen

    Bless you,

    APAK
     
  3. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    Jesus Christ never was the second Adam. He is always the Last Adam. I guess your whole theology just went down the toilet.

    Stranger
     
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  4. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 15:45-47 King James Version (KJV)
    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    We know Jesus was the last Adam and there will not be a third. The usage of the second Adam in scripture is understand as the second man AND last Adam. Why split hairs here when you have the understanding of the scripture, or maybe not?

    Bless you,

    APAK
     
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  5. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

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  6. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    Oh, who is 'we'? You and Barney. Barney didn't know. You didn't correct him. But now, of course, 'you know'. And Barney has nothing to say.

    Splittin hairs? Not hardly. Last Adam and Second Man are important truths God is giving. They are not interchangeable as Barney and you like to do.

    Stranger
     
  7. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    Barney

    Every one apparently but you. Pay attention. Jesus Christ is not the second Adam.

    Stranger
     
  8. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

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    I'm paying attention, I believe your the one who isn't paying attention to what you are saying. Like I said I'm going to disagree with you when you try to influence me to deny that it was the Only begotten Son of God who came to this world, that it was the only begotten Son of God who died for us, and that it was the only begotten Son of God who God resurrected three days after his death. Try as you will I will never deny this.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
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  9. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

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    In the text I sent having the phrase "Second Adam" the context of what I was saying is there are only two Adams that were brought into existence as 100% perfect sinless human men. The 1st Adam fell into sin and lost his perfection. The last Adam which was the second Adam who was sent as a 100% perfect sinless human but retained his perfection and sinlessness for he remained without sin right up to death.

    Corresponding Ransom

    "In Adam all are dying,” said the apostle Paul. (1 Corinthians 15:22) The ransom thus had to involve the death of the exact equal of Adam—a perfect human. (Romans 5:14) No other kind of creature could balance the scales of justice. Only a perfect human, someone not under the Adamic death sentence, could offer “a corresponding ransom”—one corresponding perfectly to Adam. (1 Timothy 2:6) It would not be necessary for untold millions of individual humans to be sacrificed so as to correspond to each descendant of Adam. The apostle Paul explained: “Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin.” (Romans 5:12) And “since death is through a man,” God provided for the redemption of mankind “through a man.” (1 Corinthians 15:21)
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
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  10. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    If you can't get the basics down, why should anyone believe your theology? And you have proved you don't have the basics down. Answer: they shouldn't.

    Stranger
     
  11. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    Now you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. The Last Adam was never the Second Adam. Your house of cards keeps falling down.

    Stranger
     
  12. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

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    I get the basics down, you and I and those who agree with you simply disagree what those basics are.
     
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  13. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    It is basic that Christ was the Last Adam and Second Man. It is clearly stated. You want it not to be so, so you develop some sort of theological mystery goop and out comes Christ the Second Adam. Which is nothing but a lie.

    You disagree with Scripture not me. And you are too ....... to admit it.

    Stranger
     
  14. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
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  15. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

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    Like I said. You and I disagree on what is and isn't scripture. Just because someone disagree with someone doesn't necessarily make them wrong. It just means we disagree. Neither one of us is infallible, even when reasoning on the scriptures
     
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  16. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    (1 Cor. 15:45-47) "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.....The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven."

    It is Scripture you disagree with. Not me. Adam was the first Adam and first man. Jesus Christ is the Last Adam and the second Man. And no amount of b.s you try to throw on it, will change it.

    Stranger
     
  17. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

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  18. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Something is really bothering me. Maybe I’ve(been) here far to long(on the board). You asked me before where I come up with such stupid ideas. Above you said, Christ was the Last Adam and second Man? Why is that never related to:

    Isaiah 48:11-12
    [11] For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it : for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. [12] Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

    Isaiah 41:4
    [4] Who hath wrought and done it , calling the generations from the beginning? I the Lord , the first, and with the last; I am he.

    Isaiah 44:6
    [6] Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

    1 Corinthians 15:45-46
    [45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. [46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    Revelation 2:8
    [8] And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

    Revelation 22:13
    [13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

    God doesn’t have a beginning and an end, except in our time??

    “Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.”
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
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  19. epostle

    epostle Active Member

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    In St. John's letters (1 John 4, 2 John 1), he tells us that the spirit of the Antichrist denies the Incarnation (the Son of God becoming man) and thereby also the Trinity (the Father and the Spirit, too). This is the spirit of the Antichrist. We got your number. Don't call us, we'll call you.
     
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  20. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    Barney

    You can believe what you want. But Scripture disagrees with you. (1 Cor. 15:45-47). Christ is not the second Adam. If you want to change the Scripture, then your theology is flawed. Which of course you are a shining example of.

    Stranger
     
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