Incompatibility

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Netchaplain

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[SIZE=10pt]I believe there is a significant advantage for one to know and understanding the difference in God’s separate dispensations concerning His people Israel, and His children the Church (all believers in Christ, which separates the people and children), because it is through both eras that He worked to bring man into fellowship with Himself and His Son. The first dispensation was Israel’s “schoolmaster,” to bring them “unto Christ”; the present dispensation finds them “no longer under a schoolmaster,” and are joined with the Gentile world resulting in being “all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus” (Gal 3:24-26).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The importance of differentiating between Israel and the Church is to reveal the final status God has planned for each (Israel and the Church). Though Bible doctrine related to this distinction in the coming eschatological period is "nonessential" (teachings not related to receiving salvation), it is nonetheless advantageous (as all nonessential doctrine is) for spiritual growth.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]It is my belief that those who remain among the nation of Israel will be saved during the end times (Rom 11:26) and that they (non-Messianic Jews) have been and will remain distinct from the Church, even in the eternal state.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]NC[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Incompatibility[/SIZE]​
To the church today, which would seem to be a corruption of Judaism and Christianity (Judeo-Christian#!?--NC) the question must be asked, and answered: What is Christianity?

In the first place, Judaism was a religion, a systematic trial of man; as Moses said, at the time of the giving of the Law, “God is come to prove you” (Ex 20:20). Christianity affirms this trial over, the sentence of the law given—“none righteousness, no, not one”; the Cross, the judgment of the world more full still; “the carnal mind” as enmity against God. Christianity thus begins in the soul as a true repentance, an acceptance of God’s righteous judgment against him, the end of all hope of betterment for him, save in a new life and nature from God: he must be born again.

The characteristic of Judaism was an unrent veil: man at a distance from God, who dwelt is the thick darkness (Ex 20:21; 1King 8:12) unapproachable (Lev 21:17), unknown. Christianity declares the veil rent in love and righteousness—rent by the Cross of Christ, and a way of access thus to God, revealed in the Lord Jesus. “By a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh” (Heb 10:20).

Judaism, with its many constantly repeated offerings could not make the “conscience perfect” (Heb 9:9). The law was efficacious to condemn (Gal 3:10—NC), but not to justify; and its forgiveness, needing again and again to be renewed, spoke only of the “forbearance of God” (Rom 3:25), gave no place of assured rest and acceptance with Him. “Who, for fear of death, were all their lifetime subject to bondage” (Heb 2:15). In Christ, by one offering are perfected forever those who are sanctified; the worshiper once purged has no more conscience of sin; and the righteousness of God justifies the ungodly, who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Judaism left, therefore, the people of God confounded with the world—necessarily, as giving no full assurance to any. No cry of “Abba, Father,” therefore was known—no spirit of son-ship. Christianity separates its justified ones from the world, to which they no more belong and have been crucified to (Gal 6:14)—and separates them to God, to whom they belong and in whom they are. “For your life is hid with Christ in God” (Col 3:3).

Judaism, for worldly men, had a “worldly sanctuary” and “carnal ordinances” (Heb 9:1, 10)—things suited to act upon men in nature, in the flesh. The worship of Christianity is heavenly, spiritual, in the intelligence of faith, and needing it; the worship of those brought nigh.

Judaism had its separate order of priests, who alone had to do with sacred things. Priest and people were distinct; and while none could really draw nigh, the former had an outward, official nearness which the latter had not. In Christianity, people and priests are one and the same; there is real, not merely relative nearness to God.

In Judaism there was God’s house, but of necessity the house and the people were quite separate; in Christianity they are identified; and this is the first way in which the Church was announced, i.e., as a building: “Upon this rock I will build My church.” Peter describes it as a building of living stones—a spiritual house (1Pet 2:5), and Paul as the temple of God in which the Spirit of God dwells (1Cor 3:16).

- F W Grant
 

OzSpen

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NetChaplain said:
[SIZE=10pt]I believe there is a significant advantage for one to know and understanding the difference in God’s separate dispensations concerning His people Israel, and His children the Church (all believers in Christ, which separates the people and children), because it is through both eras that He worked to bring man into fellowship with Himself and His Son. The first dispensation was Israel’s “schoolmaster,” to bring them “unto Christ”; the present dispensation finds them “no longer under a schoolmaster,” and are joined with the Gentile world resulting in being “all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus” (Gal 3:24-26).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The importance of differentiating between Israel and the Church is to reveal the final status God has planned for each (Israel and the Church). Though Bible doctrine related to this distinction in the coming eschatological period is "nonessential" (teachings not related to receiving salvation), it is nonetheless advantageous (as all nonessential doctrine is) for spiritual growth.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]It is my belief that those who remain among the nation of Israel will be saved during the end times (Rom 11:26) and that they (non-Messianic Jews) have been and will remain distinct from the Church, even in the eternal state.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]NC[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Incompatibility[/SIZE]​
To the church today, which would seem to be a corruption of Judaism and Christianity (Judeo-Christian#!?--NC) the question must be asked, and answered: What is Christianity?

In the first place, Judaism was a religion, a systematic trial of man; as Moses said, at the time of the giving of the Law, “God is come to prove you” (Ex 20:20). Christianity affirms this trial over, the sentence of the law given—“none righteousness, no, not one”; the Cross, the judgment of the world more full still; “the carnal mind” as enmity against God. Christianity thus begins in the soul as a true repentance, an acceptance of God’s righteous judgment against him, the end of all hope of betterment for him, save in a new life and nature from God: he must be born again.

The characteristic of Judaism was an unrent veil: man at a distance from God, who dwelt is the thick darkness (Ex 20:21; 1King 8:12) unapproachable (Lev 21:17), unknown. Christianity declares the veil rent in love and righteousness—rent by the Cross of Christ, and a way of access thus to God, revealed in the Lord Jesus. “By a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh” (Heb 10:20).

Judaism, with its many constantly repeated offerings could not make the “conscience perfect” (Heb 9:9). The law was efficacious to condemn (Gal 3:10—NC), but not to justify; and its forgiveness, needing again and again to be renewed, spoke only of the “forbearance of God” (Rom 3:25), gave no place of assured rest and acceptance with Him. “Who, for fear of death, were all their lifetime subject to bondage” (Heb 2:15). In Christ, by one offering are perfected forever those who are sanctified; the worshiper once purged has no more conscience of sin; and the righteousness of God justifies the ungodly, who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Judaism left, therefore, the people of God confounded with the world—necessarily, as giving no full assurance to any. No cry of “Abba, Father,” therefore was known—no spirit of son-ship. Christianity separates its justified ones from the world, to which they no more belong and have been crucified to (Gal 6:14)—and separates them to God, to whom they belong and in whom they are. “For your life is hid with Christ in God” (Col 3:3).

Judaism, for worldly men, had a “worldly sanctuary” and “carnal ordinances” (Heb 9:1, 10)—things suited to act upon men in nature, in the flesh. The worship of Christianity is heavenly, spiritual, in the intelligence of faith, and needing it; the worship of those brought nigh.

Judaism had its separate order of priests, who alone had to do with sacred things. Priest and people were distinct; and while none could really draw nigh, the former had an outward, official nearness which the latter had not. In Christianity, people and priests are one and the same; there is real, not merely relative nearness to God.

In Judaism there was God’s house, but of necessity the house and the people were quite separate; in Christianity they are identified; and this is the first way in which the Church was announced, i.e., as a building: “Upon this rock I will build My church.” Peter describes it as a building of living stones—a spiritual house (1Pet 2:5), and Paul as the temple of God in which the Spirit of God dwells (1Cor 3:16).

- F W Grant
NetChaplain,

You have cited F W Grant, a Christian Brethren scholar. Would I be correct in concluding that you are a supporter of Christian Brethren (Gospel Hall) Dispensationalism in your theology? Is your view similar to that promoted by Dallas Theological Seminary?

Oz
 

mjrhealth

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Hi Net C,

dont always agree, but that was well put, not so sure about the non- messianic but that I dont understand.

In all His Love
 

Netchaplain

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OzSpen said:
NetChaplain,

You have cited F W Grant, a Christian Brethren scholar. Would I be correct in concluding that you are a supporter of Christian Brethren (Gospel Hall) Dispensationalism in your theology? Is your view similar to that promoted by Dallas Theological Seminary?

Oz
Hi Oz - Always nice to hear from you! Yes, I've been studying (last 12 years) the materials that are dispensational-centric (held mostly by the Plymouth Brethren or now "Brethren" (even fellowship with a couple Bible Chaples for a while), which use teaching sources from circa 1700s-1800s. I believe these are doctrines which are as close to Biblical truth as one can get, and are greatly used for spiritual growth, because all who authored the materials maintain a high Scripture concentrate to stay in check. No doubt it's obvious that the last century has manifested a noticeable distance to the teachings of the Word of God in the general populous of contemporary Christendom (in my opinion).

Concerning DTC, I'm uncertain that it still maintains a close parallel to the dispensational tradition any longer.
 

Netchaplain

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mjrhealth said:
Hi Net C,

dont always agree, but that was well put, not so sure about the non- messianic but that I dont understand.

In all His Love
Hi Mjr - Also been missing your greetings and replies, nice to hear from you too! There are not many presently (self included) who are sufficiently accurate concerning Israel's eschatology because Scripture (for God's reason) is not openly clear concerning this. This category of study is as mysterious and difficult to comprehend as Revelation when Israel is involved. But the Bible provides sufficient enough material to apprehend these concepts, because it does reveal such if looking for it, but like gold it requires much "digging."
 

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NetChaplain said:
Hi Oz - Always nice to hear from you! Yes, I've been studying (last 12 years) the materials that are dispensational-centric (held mostly by the Plymouth Brethren or now "Brethren" (even fellowship with a couple Bible Chaples for a while), which use teaching sources from circa 1700s-1800s. I believe these are doctrines which are as close to Biblical truth as one can get, and are greatly used for spiritual growth, because all who authored the materials maintain a high Scripture concentrate to stay in check. No doubt it's obvious that the last century has manifested a noticeable distance to the teachings of the Word of God in the general populous of contemporary Christendom (in my opinion).

Concerning DTC, I'm uncertain that it still maintains a close parallel to the dispensational tradition any longer.
NetC,

One can have a high view of Scripture (as I do) but have divergent interpretations. An example of this would be the world of creationism where conservative scholars such as the late Gleason Archer (prof of Hebrew and Semitics), Norman Geisler, the late James Montgomery Boice and Hugh Ross are creationists with a high view of Scripture but believe in an old earth. By contrast, the scholars associated with Answers in Genesis & Creation Ministries International believe in a young earth.

I find that there are many conservative teachers and scholars who are not dispensational in their eschatology but endorse a high view of Scripture. I think of George Eldon Ladd and others. Their hermeneutics diverge from dispensationalism. In addition to Amillennialism, Historic Premillennialism has opposed Dispensationalism.

See,
As for Dallas Theological Seminary, as of 2015 a Brethren College 10 mins from where I live was affiliated with DTS for some kind of accreditation. I couldn't see how that College would associate with DTS unless it was Dispensational.

My parents at the time of their death fellowshipped with a Brethren Assembly (Gospel Hall) and my sister and her husband currently are in fellowship with a Brethren assembly. He's a former elder. I have a close friend who is Brethren and preaches in Brethren Assemblies in my hometown. He's been doing a series on the Feasts.

However, to be honest, I need to do more study to compare Brethren teaching with that of Scripture and what was taught in the early church. To this point, I have not seen solid research from the early church that supports Dispensationalism prior to J N Darby (AD 1800-1832). Some are of the view that he invented the pre-trib rapture in 1830. See HERE.

Without having done a lot of study in this area, it seems to me that a pre-trib, any-moment rapture of believers doesn't seem to harmonise with the teaching of Matt 24:1-31 (ESV). This includes the statement, 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man ... and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other'.

Seems to me that there will be 'the tribulation' before the appearance of the Son of Man.

Maybe I'm seeing this too simplistically.

In Christ,
Oz
 

Netchaplain

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OzSpen said:
NetC,

One can have a high view of Scripture (as I do) but have divergent interpretations. An example of this would be the world of creationism where conservative scholars such as the late Gleason Archer (prof of Hebrew and Semitics), Norman Geisler, the late James Montgomery Boice and Hugh Ross are creationists with a high view of Scripture but believe in an old earth. By contrast, the scholars associated with Answers in Genesis & Creation Ministries International believe in a young earth.

I find that there are many conservative teachers and scholars who are not dispensational in their eschatology but endorse a high view of Scripture. I think of George Eldon Ladd and others. Their hermeneutics diverge from dispensationalism. In addition to Amillennialism, Historic Premillennialism has opposed Dispensationalism.

See,
As for Dallas Theological Seminary, as of 2015 a Brethren College 10 mins from where I live was affiliated with DTS for some kind of accreditation. I couldn't see how that College would associate with DTS unless it was Dispensational.

My parents at the time of their death fellowshipped with a Brethren Assembly (Gospel Hall) and my sister and her husband currently are in fellowship with a Brethren assembly. He's a former elder. I have a close friend who is Brethren and preaches in Brethren Assemblies in my hometown. He's been doing a series on the Feasts.

However, to be honest, I need to do more study to compare Brethren teaching with that of Scripture and what was taught in the early church. To this point, I have not seen solid research from the early church that supports Dispensationalism prior to J N Darby (AD 1800-1832). Some are of the view that he invented the pre-trib rapture in 1830. See HERE.

Without having done a lot of study in this area, it seems to me that a pre-trib, any-moment rapture of believers doesn't seem to harmonise with the teaching of Matt 24:1-31 (ESV). This includes the statement, 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man ... and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other'.

Seems to me that there will be 'the tribulation' before the appearance of the Son of Man.

Maybe I'm seeing this too simplistically.

In Christ,
Oz
From what I've experienced within a couple of years of fellowship with two different Brethren Chapels, I'm of the opinion that not many of the assemblies are very familiar with the dispensational materials within the last decade.
 

mjrhealth

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(for God's reason
"God reason", is so that all men would seek Him and learn from Him, but evidently very few do, some how mankind seems to think he can undestand and infintly wise God, God will not argee with mens wisdom that is why he uses teh base and unlearened to confound the wise, for they have space for Him where the lerned are alreay filled with all there learning and understanding and leave no room, just like a glass filled with mud. You need to empty the glass of mud wash it clean than you can fill it with clean water.
 

Netchaplain

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mjrhealth said:
"God reason", is so that all men would seek Him and learn from Him
The intention for my statement "God's reason" is related to my claiming the He has not made it clear in Scripture concerning Israel's eschatology, not the Gospel of Christ concerning Soteriology in receiving salvation. Please excuse me if I'm not understanding your reply correctly.
 

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NetChaplain said:
From what I've experienced within a couple of years of fellowship with two different Brethren Chapels, I'm of the opinion that not many of the assemblies are very familiar with the dispensational materials within the last decade.
NC,

I think that applies to many evangelical denominations. My wife has drawn my attention to a sermon by Michael Horton that deals with the beliefs of young evangelicals and the research staggered (but did not surprise me). I'll post a link after I've listened to it. To this point, I have my wife's paraphrase. She's a very thoughtful thinker who is sharp theologically. I'm grateful for the wonderful insight the Lord has given her.

I think you could be correct about the lack of dispensational materials at the practical Brethren level. I've been suggesting to the local Brethren College to broaden its attraction to the wider evangelical community but it is finding that difficult with its fixation (my word and it may be too harsh) on a dispensational framework. It would attract so many more evangelicals if it were not so rigidly dispensational.

Please understand that this was the framework under which I was raised as a Baptist teenager and young adult.

Oz
 

Netchaplain

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OzSpen said:
NC,

I think that applies to many evangelical denominations.
Amen on the Lord using the wife in theology within your marriage! I believe many protestants within contemporary Christendom within the last century have been at bit distanced from fundamental Scriptural doctrine, i.e. have not learned much since the outset of their rebirth concerning the basic spiritual growth truths, and for whatever reason it does not matter because all believers in Christ will not be allowed to be ignorant of these basic truths. (Phil 2:13).

I'm not referring to the present subject being discussed (Israel and the Church) but to the most important Bible doctrines that are used for spiritual growth. A good example concerns learning the doctrines, not related to being reborn (Gospel of Christ) but those which promote progressing (Heb 6:1, 2) on to Biblical doctrine that has to do with "growing up into Him" (Eph 4:15) by being "conformed" (Rom 8:9) by the Spirit of God (Eph 3:16).

[SIZE=14.4px]The most significant doctrines for spiritual growth are directly related to the assurance of salvation (never losing it) and until there is sufficient understanding here there can be no growth--salvation by faith in Christ but no increase of faith. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.4px]My mentioning the doctrine of assurance isn't to challenge anyone to address it, but because a[/SIZE]ll spiritual growth doctrines are supported by this most important teaching. The most any believer can do to increase their Scriptural understanding and faith is to keep reading the Bible (esp. the NT), and that which hinders growth will eventually be seen, resulting in being "changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (2 Co 3:18).

Forgive me if I rattled on too much, and God's blessing to your Family!
 

OzSpen

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NetChaplain said:
Amen on the Lord using the wife in theology within your marriage! I believe many protestants within contemporary Christendom within the last century have been at bit distanced from fundamental Scriptural doctrine, i.e. have not learned much since the outset of their rebirth concerning the basic spiritual growth truths, and for whatever reason it does not matter because all believers in Christ will not be allowed to be ignorant of these basic truths. (Phil 2:13).

I'm not referring to the present subject being discussed (Israel and the Church) but to the most important Bible doctrines that are used for spiritual growth. A good example concerns learning the doctrines, not related to being reborn (Gospel of Christ) but those which promote progressing (Heb 6:1, 2) on to Biblical doctrine that has to do with "growing up into Him" (Eph 4:15) by being "conformed" (Rom 8:9) by the Spirit of God (Eph 3:16).

[SIZE=14.4px]The most significant doctrines for spiritual growth are directly related to the assurance of salvation (never losing it) and until there is sufficient understanding here there can be no growth--salvation by faith in Christ but no increase of faith. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.4px]My mentioning the doctrine of assurance isn't to challenge anyone to address it, but because a[/SIZE]ll spiritual growth doctrines are supported by this most important teaching. The most any believer can do to increase their Scriptural understanding and faith is to keep reading the Bible (esp. the NT), and that which hinders growth will eventually be seen, resulting in being "changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (2 Co 3:18).

Forgive me if I rattled on too much, and God's blessing to your Family!
NC,

I agree that there has been a moving away from fundamental doctrines of the faith in evangelical churches in my part of the world.

However, when I follow your excellent advice to 'keep reading the Bible' I find that there are doctrines of assurance of salvation that are mixed with warning passages about falling away/committing apostasy (Heb 6:4-6 ESV) or shipwrecking one's faith (1 Tim 1:18-19 ESV).

I support the view of reading the entire Bible - not just the NT - because without the OT some fundamentals of the faith are missing such as creation, covenants, psalms of praising God, Messianic prophecies, and the supernatural God in action throughout history. Only today at my place I've been discussing creation with my 16-year-old grandson. He had visited a geological display where a presenter tried to convince him of the rocks and fossils not being able to be formed by water because the rocks are too heavy. We had a short, but interesting, conversation about the supernatural God who was in action in Noah's Flood (Gen 6-9) and the naturalistic presuppositions of the woman at the geologic display and how this does not allow for God's supernatural activity during the great flood.

I consider that we do great harm to the Christian witness if we minimise the OT.

Bed is calling.

Oz