Infinite Regress

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Use the Fear

Member
Aug 12, 2019
86
18
8
51
Brisbane
Faith
Atheist
Country
Australia
If I was to accept the Christian belief that Jesus is God, and after I die I would live for eternity with him. I would have to accept that the afterlife (Eternal Existence) would have no end, Jesus would never end, I wouldn't end, nothing would ever end.

I would be tied up with Jesus love that's ever lasting, for evermore. But isn't your God the Alpha & Omega?

Revelation 21:6-7
(6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.)

I ask this question then. How can your God be at the end, if there is no end to his kingdom? Or him.
 

Heart2Soul

Spiritual Warrior
Staff member
May 10, 2018
9,863
14,508
113
65
Tulsa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If I was to accept the Christian belief that Jesus is God, and after I die I would live for eternity with him. I would have to accept that the afterlife (Eternal Existence) would have no end, Jesus would never end, I wouldn't end, nothing would ever end.

I would be tied up with Jesus love that's ever lasting, for evermore. But isn't your God the Alpha & Omega?

Revelation 21:6-7
(6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.)

I ask this question then. How can your God be at the end, if there is no end to his kingdom? Or him.
This IMHO refers to His creation.
He also says He is The I Am, and He is the one who was, and the one who is, and who is to come.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If I was to accept the Christian belief that Jesus is God, and after I die I would live for eternity with him. I would have to accept that the afterlife (Eternal Existence) would have no end, Jesus would never end, I wouldn't end, nothing would ever end.

I would be tied up with Jesus love that's ever lasting, for evermore. But isn't your God the Alpha & Omega?

Revelation 21:6-7
(6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.)

I ask this question then. How can your God be at the end, if there is no end to his kingdom? Or him.

I think it refers to His perfection. Eternity is a state of perfection - nothing about His nature changes. God is perfect in His infinite nature. We will be perfect in our ability to love because I believe we were created to do so.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,744
5,599
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If I was to accept the Christian belief that Jesus is God, and after I die I would live for eternity with him. I would have to accept that the afterlife (Eternal Existence) would have no end, Jesus would never end, I wouldn't end, nothing would ever end.

I would be tied up with Jesus love that's ever lasting, for evermore. But isn't your God the Alpha & Omega?

Revelation 21:6-7
(6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.)

I ask this question then. How can your God be at the end, if there is no end to his kingdom? Or him.
It means that God is the beginning and the end, not of Himself and all that is eternal, but rather the beginning and the end of human existence and time.

But it's not a matter of "acceptance" as one accepts something he has been told, but rather as in the acceptance of a gift. God isn't selling anything.
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What I find interesting is...I wonder, did Jesus, when He actually said it, say it in Greek? Did He maybe say it in Hebrew? Did He say maybe, I am the aleph tav? And considering that the Hebrew letters all mean something, with aleph meaning ox, strength, I think? Then what does tav mean? I don't remember what the letter stands for.
 
Last edited:

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, I just read online that tab means truth, but I don't think I remember that from when I decided I wanted to learn Hebrew but then dropped it fairly quickly...but if it is accurate, and if He did originally say it in Hebrew (if, if, if) He could have been saying something like...I am the strength and the truth. I'm just pondering here, that's all.
 

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,232
113
North America
The point is not to rationalize in order to decide whether to believe; it is to accept and trust the revelation of what Scripture declares.
 
  • Like
Reactions: brakelite

Use the Fear

Member
Aug 12, 2019
86
18
8
51
Brisbane
Faith
Atheist
Country
Australia
I think it refers to His perfection. Eternity is a state of perfection - nothing about His nature changes. God is perfect in His infinite nature. We will be perfect in our ability to love because I believe we were created to do so.
Can you actually prove that everything exists because of this quintessential belief of universal love. It seems to me that nature itself does not encompass such an expectation on us.

Please show me the love particle.
 

Use the Fear

Member
Aug 12, 2019
86
18
8
51
Brisbane
Faith
Atheist
Country
Australia
It means that God is the beginning and the end, not of Himself and all that is eternal, but rather the beginning and the end of human existence and time.

But it's not a matter of "acceptance" as one accepts something he has been told, but rather as in the acceptance of a gift. God isn't selling anything.
Sorry to say this, but I doubt there is one human being that has understood existence correctly. If matter & energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then how can there be a beginning or end to this universe. There was no singularity, no big bang, no nothingness before, and no God at the beginning or end. Because this universe is all that was before it became what it is now, and in time it will become something else again.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Can you actually prove that everything exists because of this quintessential belief of universal love. It seems to me that nature itself does not encompass such an expectation on us.

Please show me the love particle.

Evolutionary biology supports this idea - primates must maintain strong emotional ties to their clan in order to survive - love is this expression of bonding in human primates
 

Use the Fear

Member
Aug 12, 2019
86
18
8
51
Brisbane
Faith
Atheist
Country
Australia
Evolutionary biology supports this idea - primates must maintain strong emotional ties to their clan in order to survive - love is this expression of bonding in human primates
I doubt that, since love is just a word that people use to condone their particular stereotypical emotional expressions. We barely know anything about the known universe, also we have not arrived at a point sofar that we know much about ourselves either. So for anyone to get on a soapbox and say they know that love is the only way, sounds very ignorant. Basically it's hypocrisy at it's finest when a human being claims absolute understanding, while at the same time knowing as much as the nothing that everyone else does.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I doubt that, since love is just a word that people use to condone their particular stereotypical emotional expressions. We barely know anything about the known universe, also we have not arrived at a point sofar that we know much about ourselves either. So for anyone to get on a soapbox and say they know that love is the only way, sounds very ignorant. Basically it's hypocrisy at it's finest when a human being claims absolute understanding, while at the same time knowing as much as the nothing that everyone else does.

So you’re biased - ok glad that is on the table.

Before you dismiss me as ignorant - like a garden variety fundamentalist would do, it may benefit you to check out the research of Jane Goodall - I attended a lecture by her about this very subject. It is her contention that the bonding between chimps, which is expressed as service towards others in order to strengthen bonding and the expressions of anxiety when the the bonds are weakened, combined with the grief behaviors displayed could be described as love.

Love is expressed in service towards others - your snowflake definition of love is weak, I agree with you.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,744
5,599
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sorry to say this, but I doubt there is one human being that has understood existence correctly. If matter & energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then how can there be a beginning or end to this universe. There was no singularity, no big bang, no nothingness before, and no God at the beginning or end. Because this universe is all that was before it became what it is now, and in time it will become something else again.
You are not understanding.

But there is no need for you to "doubt." It is like a fishbowl, and from inside the fishbowl you are only seeing the fishbowl and its terms and limitations. The answers to where the fishbowl is in the greater scheme of things, are not to be found within the fishbowl, but must come from without. That greater context without is the kingdom of God--He created the fishbowl. You are a fish that doesn't know. <')))><

He is a fisherman.

Would you like to know? Or do you prefer your own conjecture, and that of other fish who have never been or seen outside and know nothing but a limited amount of what is inside?

The "good news" that you may have heard mentioned, is that we have heard from the outside, and we know the answers to the questions you have.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: brakelite

Use the Fear

Member
Aug 12, 2019
86
18
8
51
Brisbane
Faith
Atheist
Country
Australia
So you’re biased - ok glad that is on the table.

Before you dismiss me as ignorant - like a garden variety fundamentalist would do, it may benefit you to check out the research of Jane Goodall - I attended a lecture by her about this very subject. It is her contention that the bonding between chimps, which is expressed as service towards others in order to strengthen bonding and the expressions of anxiety when the the bonds are weakened, combined with the grief behaviors displayed could be described as love.

Love is expressed in service towards others - your snowflake definition of love is weak, I agree with you.
Animals do not possess the language you're using to demonstrate our notion of love. No animal has such a burden other than nature & nurture to guide them. But let's say for arguments sake that animals did have a similar concept of love as we do. Let's say they were also compelled to act on it, then what gets them off the hook concerning their own afterlife (Salvation)

If love as you believe is so universal, a constant in time and space, then who's going to sacrifice themselves for them? Obviously every living thing would need a saviour, since everything must give an account for love used or abused.
 

Use the Fear

Member
Aug 12, 2019
86
18
8
51
Brisbane
Faith
Atheist
Country
Australia
You are not understanding.

But there is no need for you to "doubt." It is like a fishbowl, and from inside the fishbowl you are only seeing the fishbowl and its terms and limitations. The answers to where the fishbowl is in the greater scheme of things, are not to be found within the fishbowl, but must come from without. That greater context without is the kingdom of God--He created the fishbowl. You are a fish that doesn't know. <')))><

He is a fisherman.

Would you like to know? Or do you prefer your own conjecture, and that of other fish who have never been or seen outside and know nothing but a limited amount of what is inside?

The "good news" that you may have heard mentioned, is that we have heard from the outside, and we know the answers to the questions you have.
Would I like to know? Sure, if it doesn't require blind belief first. You say I am in a fishbowl, but are you not in a fishbowl also? Explain to me how Christian's are free to believe, but not free to leave.

Sound's just like another fishbowl too me.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Animals do not possess the language you're using to demonstrate our notion of love. No animal has such a burden other than nature & nurture to guide them. But let's say for arguments sake that animals did have a similar concept of love as we do. Let's say they were also compelled to act on it, then what gets them off the hook concerning their own afterlife (Salvation)

If love as you believe is so universal, a constant in time and space, then who's going to sacrifice themselves for them? Obviously every living thing would need a saviour, since everything must give an account for love used or abused.

And yet, love is just a word to you....
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,744
5,599
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Would I like to know? Sure, if it doesn't require blind belief first. You say I am in a fishbowl, but are you not in a fishbowl also? Explain to me how Christian's are free to believe, but not free to leave.

Sound's just like another fishbowl too me.
The difference is that Christians have heard from the outside. Whether a still small voice, or a vision, or any number of encounters. I myself was caught up in the spirit to experience the supernatural realm--and yes, "super" leaves no contest as to what is actually real or literal. "Created" takes on a whole new meaning...well, not really, just not the illusion of actual reality we consider the world to be--what idiots! We've been the characters in a color cartoon thinking light and pixels and the whole story line was life...when we were told from the start that it is all "created" out of nothing--"Let there be light!"--camera, action, roll'em! Idiots.

The good news is, there is good news...there actually is a real reality beyond this cartoon fishbowl, and the end is not the end unless you close your eyes and plug your ears. In which case, when the color cartoon ends--no popcorn and no main event.

So, you can take the word of countless eyewitnesses to the only complete ribbon of cohesive truth the world has to offer, or pull your fingers out of your ears and open your eyes and your mind, and [duh!] listen for yourself and get a clue that there is more to life than the shallow and organic patty cake world, or hey, just enjoy the limpet tale and then go home.

But let me help you with that... Imagine you were born into a big room with a bunch of other people and there were no apparent doors or windows and no one had ever been or seen outside--we talked about this. Anyway, if no one inside had ever been or seen outside, who could actually know what was outside? A scientist? A professor? A monk? A politician? Any one? No. That means the only actual truth and not just some conjecture based on what no one actually has, would have to come from-the-outside-in. Well...like I said, We have heard from the outside. In fact, its all written down--that's what the Bible is: a written record of personal encounters with the outside--with God. I know, because, I am one.

The rest is on you. Got perception? You can do this!

But hey, don't be upset (most are), it is not as if there is no purpose to the whole preview rehearsal. That's what it is, it's practice. If you have it in you, you will practice opening the door when you hear the knock, if not, you will practice closing that door and hiding in your room. It's your future. As they say, "No one is going to drag you up."

And don't bother asking any of us to prove it--there is only One who can prove it. You gotta ask Him. But let me caution you (sibling to sibling), think about how you as a child might ask your own father. The response might depend on your attitude...if you know what I mean.
 
Last edited:

Use the Fear

Member
Aug 12, 2019
86
18
8
51
Brisbane
Faith
Atheist
Country
Australia
And yet, love is just a word to you....
How can the emotion you call love be a word? You feel a feeling, then assume the feeling your experiencing is actually the word you learnt in school? Did you ever stop to think for one moment that each person feels love differently, or any other emotion for that matter. If every person on this planet could experience love the exact same way every other person does, then everyone would be compatible with everyone else in the human relationship rainbow.

But then what makes someone's love unique if they have to first accept another person, or groups feeling on that matter. Trying to change your emotions to fit in with other people's emotions is mentally destructive, this is another thing that is painfully obvious to me.
 

shnarkle

Well-Known Member
Nov 10, 2013
1,689
569
113
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
If I was to accept the Christian belief that Jesus is God, and after I die I would live for eternity with him. I would have to accept that the afterlife (Eternal Existence) would have no end, Jesus would never end, I wouldn't end, nothing would ever end.

Non sequitur. Just because existence is eternal, it doesn't then follow that things are eternal. If you're going to assume what the bible says is true, then it is a Given that things have a beginning and an end. When you state that you will one day die, what or who are you referring to? You, or yourself?

I would be tied up with Jesus love that's ever lasting, for evermore. But isn't your God the Alpha & Omega?

Revelation 21:6-7
(6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.)

I ask this question then. How can your God be at the end, if there is no end to his kingdom? Or him.

Christ doesn't claim to be at the beginning or end. He claims to be the beginning and the end. John also points out that eternity is more comprehensive than time, e.g. "in the beginning WAS the word". This suggests that the word exists prior to the beginning of time. It is more of a way of pointing out the reality than actually stating a fact because there can be no "before" or "after" when there is no time. There is no "when" without time.

There is no beginning or end to eternity because these are characteristics of time. In other words, eternity is not a very long time. Eternity has nothing to do with time except insofar as it is something created with a beginning and end in eternity.

The dilemma is in figuring out what or who we are, and how to identify what is eternal and what is temporal. What actually lives and what is going to die?
 
  • Like
Reactions: aspen

Use the Fear

Member
Aug 12, 2019
86
18
8
51
Brisbane
Faith
Atheist
Country
Australia
Non sequitur. Just because existence is eternal, it doesn't then follow that things are eternal. If you're going to assume what the bible says is true, then it is a Given that things have a beginning and an end. When you state that you will one day die, what or who are you referring to? You, or yourself?



Christ doesn't claim to be at the beginning or end. He claims to be the beginning and the end. John also points out that eternity is more comprehensive than time, e.g. "in the beginning WAS the word". This suggests that the word exists prior to the beginning of time. It is more of a way of pointing out the reality than actually stating a fact because there can be no "before" or "after" when there is no time. There is no "when" without time.

There is no beginning or end to eternity because these are characteristics of time. In other words, eternity is not a very long time. Eternity has nothing to do with time except insofar as it is something created with a beginning and end in eternity.

The dilemma is in figuring out what or who we are, and how to identify what is eternal and what is temporal. What actually lives and what is going to die?
I don't think that the Bible will cover us on this explorative investigation of discovering the facts. The Bible is just not good enough when it comes to establishing grounded theories about the topics it raises. At some point everyone has to put their ancient book of beliefs down, and enlist the service of scientific evidence.