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Is Baptism Necessary For Salvation?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Humbleman, Nov 12, 2010.

  1. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." - John 3:5 kjv


    -- Hard to argue with specific, unambiguous scripture.
    Jesus himself felt the need to be baptized. Why would he do that if it wasn't important?
     
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  2. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    Selene...I like that...I defer to the best story teller.

    Logabe
     
  3. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    Thank you for bringing the batted thread to the surface again Foreigner.

    The baptism of John was from heaven but as most often happens people fail to see the transition of God from the Jews alone to all the nations, from the law to grace.

    The question of who Johns baptism was for is absent from your observation. It was for the Jews who believed Johns message and for those like wise that believed in the one whom John pointed to, Jesus. This marks the first provision God establishes that will lead to the message of the entire NT, the new covenant is beginning to be reveled, the futility in men receiving salvation threw the law will now be realized by the provision God has brought fourth, Jesus. It draws a line in the sand between the Jews, those that believe in Jesus and those that believe in the ones that sit in Moses chair as Catholics like refer to the Pharisees. Jesus Himself testifys that He has come to the house of Israel Mt 15:24. Salvation is of the Jews John 4:22, Gods divine plan of salvation was manifest in the nation of Israel. The completion of salvation that would be presented to all the nations was beginning and Its transformation from law to grace. Just as Abraham prophesied to Isaac, the LORD shall provide Himself a sacrifice Gen 22:8 . From your seed all nations shall be blessed Gen 22:17-18, Paul likens this seed as singular meaning Jesus. Gal 3:16

    We see this plan of salvation is not completely evident, even to the disciples. Acts chapter 10 marks the final transition from the house of Israel to all nations, from the law to grace, I like to point out the fact that this transition is accompanied by divine intervention. My observation is that Peter saw that the Gentiles had received salvation by hearing the word, he himself said, I now understand that God is no respecter of persons Acts 10:34-35. Even in that we still see Peter commanding that, Cornelius and his house be baptized after receiving the gift of the promise Gal 3:19. IMO Peter does not completely understand the full implications and message that was reviled to both him and Cornelius. To support this observation, later in Acts we see the sorting out of the necessity of circumcision, another indicator that the Apostles were still learning the completed work of God that Paul speaks of threw out all of his letters. By grace you are saved threw faith and that not of yourselves Eph 2:8-9. So now should we go on sinning because we are no longer saved by observing the law, God forbid Romans 6:15. In not understanding this transition leads to apparent contradictions in the message of the NT. When in reality its a mater of understanding the time in which the event and statements were made.

    I can not go without adding one last bit of evidence to my understanding of the message from above. Divine intervention and its message, Just as Peter and Cornelius had divine intervention in the finial stag of salvation so also Gabriel was sent to herald in the Messiah. To both Danial as to the time, and outline of His coming and at the event itself in the NT. 70 weeks were determined for Danial and his people. I take this quite literally. That the 70th week was fulfilled directly after the 69th. Until Messiah the Prince there shall be 7 weeks and 62 weeks, Dan 9:25 . The 70th week began with Johns baptism of Jesus, along with the Fathers baptism "anointing" of Jesus with the Holy Spirit. In the midst of the week Messiah shall be cut off but not for Himself. Dan 9:26 . 3.5 years after Jesus began His mission He was cut off, He went to the cross. But lets look and see there is still 3.5 years left of the 70th week. Dan 9:27 says that He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week Mt 26:28 Heb2:3 . Jesus confirmed the covenant with the Jews, 70 weeks are determined for you and your people. We can see that Jesus is not finished with the House of Israel even after death and resurrection. The 70 week did not end until Acts chapter 10. For 3.5 years salvation was offered excusivly to the Jews the House of Israel. I believe that salvation threw grace was offered to the nation of Israel from the cross to the Gentiles, Acts chapter 10, but the Jews did not fully comprehend it, yet that is the message of salvation. Only after we see the message of grace threw faith poured out on the Gentiles are the Apostles beginning to understand the full gospel that Paul was commissioned to take to the world in Acts chapter 9. As you might see the 70th week was right on the heals of the 69th, the NT supports this, God has not forsaken the Nation of Israel but simply completed His work of salvation being manifest threw them. Then offered it exclusively to them for 3.5 years. God has not forsaken Israel but in fact Israel as seen as a whole forsook God Mt 23:38-39.

    [font="Trebuchet MS][size="2"]Lk 14.16-24 And He said to him, A certain man made a great supper and invited many. And he sent his servant at supper time to say to those who were invited, Come, for all things are now ready. And all with one consent began to make excuse.

    The first said to him, I have bought a piece of ground, I must go and see it. I beg you, have me excused.

    And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I am going to test them. I beg you, have me excused.

    And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

    And coming up that servant reported these things to his lord. And the master of the house, being angry, said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city and bring in here the poor and the maimed, and the lame and the blind.

    And the servant said, Lord, it is done as you have commanded, and still there is room.

    And the lord said to the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges and compel them to come in, so that my house may be filled. For I say to you that none of these men who were invited shall taste of my supper.



    So I have answered Selene, will you do the same and answer my question?

    [/size][/font]
    You are of the Catholic faith so are these also a necessary work for salvation as well? The other 6 sacraments?
    I just want to know how long the list is
    Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Communion, Confession, Marriage, Holy Orders, and the Anointing of the Sick

    I end with my first response to baptism with water. Acts chapter 10
    Now you go and be baptized, the keeping of the law is always pleasing to God.
     
  4. Martin W.

    Martin W. Active Member

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    A hardened Baptist would say Yes.

    A hardened criminal on a cross next to Jesus would say no.

    I would say if you are a baptized Christian believer , drop all the debating already. It accomplishes nothing.

    Unless of course you think your style of Baptism theology is better than all those other guy's.

    Which of course it is ...... right ?

    AHAA .... motive is exposed ....

    Clean Chlorinate water in a Church baptismal , or a sprinkle of water on a forehead , or a dunking in the mighty muddy Jordan River .... pick any one ..... that is all it takes to get men to argue for 2000 years about a public outward sign of an personal internal beleif.
     
  5. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Hello Bud,

    Baptism was started in the New Testament. It started with St. John the Baptist. And yes, this baptism came from God, not from man. This baptism was for both the Jews and the Gentiles. St. John the Baptist baptized the Jews with water, and it was St. Peter who baptized the first Gentiles ALSO with water. St. Peter and the Apostles baptized the Gentiles with both water and the Holy Spirit. In other words, they did not leave water out (See Acts 10:44-48). Furthermore, Jesus told the Apostles to go out and baptize all nations. It was a baptism of both water and spirit because St. Peter wrote to the all the Christian churches about water baptism (See 1 Peter 3:20-21). Are you disputing these scriptures? Surely, you are not saying that the Apostles were wrong in baptizing with water?



    My brother, I have answered your question. I already stated that anything that comes from God is not considered "works by salvation." It was Christ Himself who commanded the Apostles to go out and baptize all the nations (Matthew 28:19). Again, this came from God, not man and this was a baptism of both water and spirit. This is the Sacrament of Baptism and Confirmation. So, we go and baptize all nations with water and spirit just as Jesus commanded us to do....and you see that as "works by salvation?" It was Jesus Himself who told His Apostles to go out and forgive sins (John 20:22-23). Again, this came from God, not man. This is the Sacrament of Reconciliation. So, we forgive the sins of others as our priests also offers forgiveness of sins through reconciliation....and you see that as "works by salvation?" During the last supper, it was Christ Himself who told His Apostles to "do this in memory of me" (Luke 22:19). Again, this commandment came from God, not man. This is the Sacrament of the Eucharist. So, everyday (yes, everyday), we celebrate the Eucharist in memory of Him.....and you see this as "works by salvation?" There are 7 sacraments altogether and all came from Heaven.

    Exactly, how do you expect to receive salvation? Do you honestly think that all you have to do is sit around and do nothing except believe in Jesus and that is it? Do you even see praying as "works by salvation?" Do you believe that all you need to do is believe and that is it? Is that your idea of receiving salvation?

    My brother, I am a daughter of God....and I can tell you that the sons and daughters of God are NOT sitting around doing NOTHING!

    Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Do you believe that the will of our Father is to sit around doing nothing?

    Perhaps, you need to ask yourself this question: If water baptism is really not important as you say, then why did God commanded it, why did Jesus allow Himself to be baptize with water, and why did He allow His Apostles to continue baptizing with water even after St. John the Baptist was gone? A baptism of both water and spirit is what Jesus went through at the Jordan River. We follow this, so why criticize Catholics for following the sacrament of Baptism, which came directly from God and not from man? God bless.


    In Christ,
    Selene
     
  6. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    It would seem your the one cherry picking verses, just what do you do with Pauls teachings? Claim that Peter is the pope and has presidents over him.
    Its very evident in Acts 10 that baptism was not necessary to receive the baptism of the HS, the baptism that saves. They received it by hearing the word of God. Rom 10:17 Eph 2:8-9






    I suppose the law was also from God, so do you also keep the law? or have you ever failed to keep it?
    Circumcision was also from God, does your church also keep this command? By your definition the Apostles failed to keep that which came from God. Peter himself is condemned by your definition in Act 15 The Apostles decided that circumcision was no longer necessary. And isn't it interesting that Peter points to Acts chapter 10 to support this decision. So now why do you test God by putting the yoke on the neck of the disciples Selene?


    Acts 15
    [sup]6[/sup] Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. [sup]7[/sup] And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. [sup]8[/sup] So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, [sup]9[/sup] and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. [sup]10[/sup] Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? [sup]11[/sup] But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ[sup][a][/sup] we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

    Now how is it Peter now teaches a message of faith instead of works? I explained it to you in my last post.
    So what did John say the very day He announced the Lord? He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, thats exactly what Peter says in Acts 15, referring to Acts 10 see the part I bolded.

    Its apparent you teach and expect to receive it by being a member of the RCC and receiving the 7 sacraments, I'll believe what the Apostles taught.


    Its pretty clear you ether did not read or did not understand my last post. Baptism was for the Jews during the time God was removing Israel from under the law to a salvation by faith threw grace. Read Acts 15 6-11 again and note the last statement Peter makes.
    [sup]11[/sup] But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

    And what manner was that?
    Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. [sup]8[/sup] So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, [sup]9[/sup] and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

    By Peters own words the transformation from the law to grace has been completed the transformation from the sons of Israel to all nations. And he reminisces Acts chapter 10 as the working evidence.
    My question to you would be, do you and your church really follow Peter?


    Where would you rather be here Rom 8:5
    or here Rom 8:1 Rom 8:4

    Also note I am not teaching people to ignore the law.
    Now you go and be baptized, the keeping of the law is always pleasing to God.



     
  7. Anastacia

    Anastacia New Member

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    What exactly are you saying about water baptism? You've already been told by others here that we know people can be saved without having a water baptism. And we already told you that we know people were given the Holy Spirit before they were water baptized. So why do you keep arguing here? And what exactly are you arguing about? You have even told us that you agree with us that people should be water baptized. Do you believe that a believer has to ever repent and turn from their sin? I would like you to explain better exactly what you are debating here. I do know though, from debating you previouly on this that you deny some of the scriptures that speak of water baptism as speaking of water baptism. So is that your main argument here being that those scriptures don't speak of water baptism?
    I just want to understand better on what you are saying.
     
  8. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    You directing your frustration at the wrong person. You should be asking Selene why she believes water baptism is necessary for salvation. That is what I'm replying to.

    Read post #23 if you want a complete explanation for the apparent confusion.

    I didn't give you the explanation simply because I don't want to tolerate your antagonizing. After you asked for my reply to be removed, Its evident you didn't like the results.

    In short don't ask for things in a tone your not willing to hear. You start throwing fire around be prepared to get burnt.
     
  9. Anastacia

    Anastacia New Member

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    You've got to be kidding. It's almost laughable. You got your one post to me deleted because you were found to be personally attacking. You are ridiculous if you believe you burned me. You are wrong when you say the scriptures that speak of water baptism as not speaking of water baptism. You can't bring yourself to admit you got those scriptures wrong. You show yourself as someone who goes against the Word of God. And you show yourself as one who sins by falsely judging a believer.
     
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  10. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    I could have easily petitioned for the same in your post but choose to let people see and choose for themselves.
    Are you happy now that the thread post here are moved off topic? We wouldn't want someone reading my reply's about this topic would we. Stone is heavy.
    And BTW I never so much as received a PM about the post you personally found embarrassing. Was it the fact you got caught falsely accusing me followed by a proverb? That is hardly a personal attack, but is rather embarrassing. I'm done its your thread now.
     
  11. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    No, Bud, I back up what I say with biblical scripture. Isn't that what Protestants always do?

    I thought we were speaking about baptism? Where did circumcision come from? And for your information, circumcision is not a sacrament.

    My brother, all you did was ignore Acts 10:44-48, where St. Peter DID say "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we?" You simply ignored that one line in the scripture.


    You ask if I and my Church really follow St. Peter? The answer is no. We follow Jesus Christ in the same way and manner that the Apostle Peter and the rest of the Apostles followed Him. St. Peter is not higher than Christ.

    You are actually asking me if I would rather be in Romans 8:5 or in Romans 8:1 and Romans 8:4? :blink: Now, look who is cherry-picking verses? My brother, there are many things you don't understand about Catholics. For one thing, we view the entire Bible as the "Word of God." Therefore, it is not a matter of where we would rather be in which biblical verses because all biblical verses are the "Word of God." Unlike you, we don't pick and choose which biblical verse we would rather be in. The Word of God is not meant to be picked and chosen according to your liking. All the Word of God is meant to be listened to and adhered to. And when we read and listened to the Word of God, it does speak of a baptism of BOTH water and spirit. You, on the other hand, only see a baptism of the Holy Spirit. You forget that Christ Himself was baptized in both water and spirit.

    In Christ,
    Selene
     
  12. Anastacia

    Anastacia New Member

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    bud02, I have reported the above post you made to me. You have not said one thing about baptism in your post to me and you have only attacked me personally. Repent, bud02. You have too much hate for a believer.
     
  13. Humbleman

    Humbleman New Member

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    My brethren and I are constantly scolded and criticized for putting so much emphasis on “water baptism” by our Protestant friends. Why is it do you suppose, that faithful Christians talk and write so much about “water baptism?” I suggest some reasons at least.

    1). Because the New Testament has quite a lot to say on the subject.

    2). Because of the “design” given “water baptism” in Christ’s word. Mark 16:16 clearly teaches “He who believes and is baptized will be saved...” That’s sufficient for me. What about you?

    3). Our religious neighbors teach so much error on the subject of “water baptism” that we feel compelled to “contend for the faith once for all delivered” (Jude 3), and to “give an answer to everyone who asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear” (1 Peter 3:15).

    When I set out to answer some objections to baptism, let me say right up front that most religious folks do not oppose water baptism per-se. No, most every religious group engages in, and at some point even demands what they call baptism. They also have “water” associated with the same. It is only when one teaches what the Bible actually says about “water baptism” that our religious friends and neighbors get all “bent out of shape” with my brethren and me.

    Following Is Some of What The Bible Teaches On This Subject

    1). The only proper subjects are: Those capable of hearing, believing, repenting, and confessing faith in Jesus with their mouths. (John 6:44-45; Romans 10:17; Mark 16:15; Acts 8:21-24; Hebrews 11:6; Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9; Acts 17:30; Romans 10:9-10; Matthew 10:32-33; Acts 8:37).

    2). The design or purpose of “water baptism” must be: “to save,” “for remission of sins,” “into the one body.” (Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; Romans 6:3-4; Acts 8:12,12; 22:16; 1 Peter 3:20-21; 1 Corinthians 12:13).

    3). The action of the “one baptism” of Ephesians 4:5 is complete immersion in water, a going down into and a coming up out of the water.(Colossians 2:12; Acts 8:38-39; Romans 6:3-4). The meaning of the Greek word translated baptism means only to immerse.

    4). The relationship into which Scriptural baptism places one is as the last point in numeral 2 suggests, it puts one “in Christ” and “in the one body, His church.”



    Still, Objections to “Scriptural Baptism” Abound! Here are a few of them.

    1). “Look at all the passages which demand faith but say nothing about “water baptism.”

    Answer: We must “live by every word that proceeds from God” (Matthew 4:4). You can’t get the whole truth on any subject until you read everything the Bible says on that subject. Even then, it must be “rightly divided” (2 Timothy 2:15; 1 Peter 3:16). If we should use this approach to Bible study we could teach “salvation by baptism alone” since 1 Peter 3:21 says, “...baptism doth also now save us.” If we did that we would not be “handling aright the word of truth” don’t you see?

    2). “The thief on the cross was not baptized:”

    Answer: Are you sure of that statement? In all probability he was since he seemed to have such a good understanding of the nature of Christ kingdom. In fact while hanging on the cross on one side of Jesus he still believed that Christ death would not hinder His coming kingdom (Luke 23:43). Even Christ’s apostles thought when He was crucified all was lost. Why? They looked for a physical kingdom just as many do today (Acts 1:6). Jesus taught, “My kingdom is not of this world...” (John 18:36). This thief had probably been baptized with John the immerser’s preparatory baptism of repentance for the remission of sins as he waited the coming of the Messiah since “all Jerusalem and Judea went out and were baptized of John” (Matthew 3:5). Those who refused, rejected the council of God against themselves (Luke 7:30). However, it matters not whether the thief was baptized by John or by Christ since they were living under a different dispensation than you and me and since Christ had power on earth as (God with us) to forgive men’s sins any way He chose (Matthew 9:6). Anyway, the “Great Commission” of Christ had not been given as yet and a “testament is of force after men are dead, not while they live” (Hebrews 9:15-17). Your objection is only a quibble!

    3). “Baptism is an ordinance of man:”

    Answer: Even John’s preparatory baptism was of such importance that those who rejected the same, “rejected the council of God against themselves” (Luke 7:30). Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father hath taught Me, I speak these things” (John 8:28).

    4). “We aren’t saved by works.”

    Answer: I agree that we aren’t saved by “boastful works” (Ephesians 2:8- 9). We cannot put God in our debt. Works of human devising are incapable of saving one’s soul. Works of the law of Moses will not save one. Still, to make a blanket statement that “we aren’t saved by works” would rule out the essentiality of faith. Someone asked Jesus “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said, “This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He hath sent” (John 8:28- 29). Still, a man must do the believing. Does our belief negate the grace of God and deny that salvation is a free gift provided by God? Certainly not! Christ is said to be the “author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him” (Hebrews 5:9; Matthew 7:21; James 1:18-25; 2:14-26; Revelation 22:14).

    5). “I believe the “one baptism” for today is Holy Ghost baptism.”

    Answer: Really!!! Then since you also practice some “form” of “water baptism” or at least every Protestant church with which I’m familiar does, it appears to me you must decide for sure on this matter and your decision must be Biblically correct, for you now have “two baptism,” not one. Paul said in about the A.D. 60’s “One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism,...” (Ephesians 4:5). As the “Great Commission” was carried out by the apostles and evangelists of the first century, this “one baptism” was in water. In Acts 8:26- 39 the Eunuch said, “see, here is water; what hinders me from being baptized?” (v-36). In Acts 10:47-48 Peter said “can any man forbid water that these should not be baptized...?” (v-47). In Acts 16:33 the Jailer “washed their stripes and was baptized he and all of his household.” Some folks want to dehydrate this matter removing the WATER! It can’t be done and please the Lord who commanded water baptism. Besides, “Holy (Ghost) Spirit Baptism” was a promise and the Son of God alone could administer the same (Matthew 3:11; Acts 1:5). We can’t obey a promise but we are able to obey this command Disciples were to administer baptism as they carried out the “Great Commission.” Jesus said, “...Go, Teach, Baptize, and Teach...” (Matthew 28:18-20).

    6). Oh, we believe in baptism alright but we think it is just how one identifies with Christ. Kind of like a soldier putting on his uniform. He is already a soldier before he puts on his uniform, and we believe this is simply the way one confesses to the world that they have received Christ. It’s just an “outward sign of an inward grace” don’t you see? We believe one is baptized to “join a church.”

    Answer: We have heard all of that gobbledegook over and over! The trouble is, there are no passages of Holy Scriptures to back up those statements. Besides, according to your teaching on baptism a man could be saved at the point of faith, die before baptism and go to heaven never having been baptized. I know that’s what you Protestants teach. Then let’s try your “putting on the uniform” example. I don’t think it fits your understanding (rather misunderstanding) concerning baptism’s purpose. That would mean that the soldier would never have to put his uniform on. They would put such a soldier in the brig my friend! Too, you would never have to “confess to the world that you have received Christ” and never have to show “an outward sign of an inward grace,” since your own doctrine says we are “saved by faith alone” and rejects baptism as essential to salvation from past sins. See?

    The Bible teaches that water baptism:


    1). It is obeyed to be saved-(Mark 16:16).
    3). It is for the remission of sins-(Acts 2:38).
    4). It is into Christ-(Romans 6:3).
    5). It is into Christ’s death-(Romans 6:4).
    6). It is into the one body-(1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 2:13-16).
    7). It is how one puts on Christ-(Galatians 3:26-27).
    8). It saves one-(1 Peter 3:20-21).
    9). It washes away sins-(Acts 22:16).
    10). It is the washing of regeneration-(Titus 3:5).
    11). It is the final act of the “new birth”-(John 3:3-5).
    12). It is essential to conversion-(Acts 3:19).

    7). Well now, just look at all the folks who haven’t been baptized and who do not believe what you say the Bible teaches about water baptism! What about them? Are they all hell bound?

    Answer: Final judgment and destinies are left in the hands of an all wise and all powerful God who makes no mistakes. While I am unable to give any comfort to one who has not been “born again of the water and of the Spirit” since Jesus said such cannot “see,” nor “enter” into the kingdom of God, (John 3:3-5). I must reach and teach as many as I possibly can. One thing is for sure my friend, You are not among the number who haven’t heard or who haven’t had an opportunity to comply with the Bible’s teaching in this matter of “water baptism,” and one thing is for sure, you have no excuse! I will just add this: If you are honest in your question and you are really concerned for “all of those lost folks,” you had better obey the Lord at your earliest opportunity, then get busy trying to reach and teach those lost folks the soul saving gospel of Christ (Mark 16:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16-17; Romans 10:6-17; 16:25-26). Besides, you teach as do I that faith in God and Christ are essentials and there are many who do not believe, are they lost? To be consistent with your argument would negate faith the same as it would baptism as being essential don’t you see? Yet (John 8:21-24; Hebrews 11:6) indicate the impossibility of salvation apart from faith in the Godhead!

    8). “To require baptism for salvation puts a man between God and man.”

    Answer: No more than does the command to believe (John 8:24; Hebrews 11:6). Since “faith comes by hearing” and since God chose “preaching to save those who believe” (1 Corinthians 1:21; Romans 10:8-17; John 6:44- 45). Any objection one may raise against the necessity of water baptism can also be leveled against God for commanding that one believe or perish! Your objection is really directed toward God, not toward members of Christ church. Your attempts to condemn us comes only because we adhere to the will of Christ in this matter.

    9). “Well, you may be right but I just can’t see it.”

    Answer: He means it just doesn’t make sense to me that God would send one to torment just because he wasn’t baptized scripturally. Well, once again the same response can be made against other commandments of Christ that you do take much stock in like “faith” and “repentance.” We are to “walk by faith and not by sight” according to the apostle Paul in (2 Corinthians 5:7). Faith comes by “hearing the word of Christ” (Romans 10:17), and the word of Christ says baptism is one ingredient upon which man’s salvation is predicated. God’s ways and man’s ways are not alike by a long shot! In fact God’s ways and thoughts are higher above man’s then the heavens are above the earth (Isaiah 55:8-9). The apostle Paul speaks of the weakness of God being stronger than man and indicates to us that we must humble ourselves before God. He even says not many mighty, not many noble, are called. “But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things that are mighty; and the base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in His presence....That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord” (See 1 Corinthians 1:18-31). In 2 Corinthians 2:5, Paul wrote “that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.”

    10). “Your position limits the gospel.”

    Answer: You don’t say? My position is only following what the Bible teaches and don’t you know that “your faith only” position (even if your doctrine was correct) “limits the number who will be saved?” But neither you nor I can change God’s foreordained plan to save mankind without losing our own souls (Galatians 1:6-11; John 12:48; Luke 6:46; 2 John 9-11). Christ knows that His truth will not be palatable to the masses, even though He tasted of death for every man (John 3:16-17; Hebrews 2:9), He said of the “strait gate and the narrow way that leads to life” will be entered into only by the “few” (Matthew 7:13-14). He has “limited salvation” to those who are willing to “obey the Father’s will” (Matthew 7:21-29; Hebrews 5:9; Revelation 22:14). See also (John 14:15, 21, 23).

    11). “Paul said he was sent to preach not to baptize.”

    Answer: He did baptize. Did he disobey Christ? See (1 Corinthians 1:14- 17). Did not the “Great Commission” apply to Paul who was chosen last as an apostle to the Gentiles (Mark 16:15-16)? What is Paul really saying in that statement “Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach...?” Only that he didn’t personally have to do the act of baptizing, others could do that. The reason he was glad he had not personally baptized very many was because at Corinth some were taking the name of the one who had baptized them into Christ and this was promoting division. Read the whole context (1 Corinthians 1:10-13; 1 Corinthians 3:1-3). So this puny objection falls under the weight of investigation just as all the rest.

    12). “Well, We think Christians ought to be baptized.”

    Answer: Bless your heart, Christians were never baptized under apostolic teaching! Believers who asked what they must do were told to “Repent and be baptized...for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38). We have seen what is attributed to scriptural baptism in this study and those blessings were what lost people received in being saved from alien sins. When Christians sinned they were not told to “repent and be baptized,” they were told to “repent, confess, and pray” for forgiveness (Acts 8:22; 1 John 1:9; James 5:16). Water baptism is for alien sinners in order that they may become Christians and members of Christ’s blood bought church (Romans 6:3-5; Galatians 3:26-29; Acts 2:22-38,40-41, 47; Acts 22:16; Colossians 1:13-14).

    Jesus asked a pointed question of some religious people of His day while walking among men: “And why call ye Me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46).

    I ask you why not yield to the truth of Jesus and “save yourselves from this crooked generation”(Acts 2:40)? Those who obey not the gospel will be “punished with everlasting destruction...” (2 Thessalonians 1:6-10).

    Don’t “object to baptism,” submit to it!

    Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power; When He shall come to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day” (2 Thess. 1:6-10).
    See also (1 Peter 1:22-25)!


    I know this was alot to read, but i believe this was important and necessary. I didnt start this topic to say, IM RIGHT, YOUR WRONG. I dont expect people here, to magically change their way of thinking about this important subject. Most of us were raised to think a certain way, or to believe the way our parents believed. I love my parents and I want them to go to heaven, and Im sure you all do also, but please, please, dont take for granted, that the way they believe in God and his word was correct. Your own soul is too important to "keep the tradition" of family. Think, read, study for yourselves. Thats all I ask.
    May God bless you all.
     
    Selene likes this.
  14. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Hello Humbleman,

    Excellent post. :)

    In Christ,
    Selene
     
  15. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    Nice copy paste job Humbleman. Why not just give the link.

    http://www.bible.ca/...sm-answered.htm

    Why I was just wondering myself, what is your position? in your own words please. LOL :lol:

    I'm not interested in what Kenneth E. Thomas has to say
    From Expository Files 12.2; February 2005
     
  16. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    Its pretty clear to everyone by now this is a batted thread from top to bottom.
     
  17. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    I think it is very clear that he thinks that it's okay to be baptized with water. My question to you is why do you put people down for recognizing water baptism? Why does it bother you so much that you want them to follow you and be baptize only in the Holy Spirit? A question was asked on this thread....is baptism necessary for salvation? My answer to that question is "yes" and it has nothing to do with any kind of "human works." Why? Because as I pointed out to you, what comes from God is not "works by salvation." What comes from man IS "works by salvation." And baptism never came from man. It came directly from God. If you don't care for water baptism, that is up to you. But why patronize your neighbor for following what comes from Heaven?

    We believe that Jesus is the only Way to salvation, and that is why we follow His way. He baptized Himself with water and spirit, so I don't see anything wrong with being baptized with water and spirit too. If water baptism is good enough for Christ, then it's good enough for me. :)

    In Christ,
    Selene
     
  18. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    Heres what I;ve seen, people go to a church that teach being baptized in water and the holy Spirit are one in the same. They spend a year or several they end up leaving just as empty as they came. These people have heard all you have to say, been to every sacrament under the sun they soon begin to realize that all church is, is a bunch of dos and donts. These people are very hard to reach their hearts are hard. BTW I don't do as you outlined, I simply teach you can't be saved by following the law. By hearing the word and accepting Jesus in the true gospel they become born again, of the Spirit, Is both my goal and Gods, now their under His complete care and have the seal of the promise. Eph 1:13-14



     
  19. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Matt 28

    “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [sup]19[/sup] Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [sup]20[/sup] and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
     
  20. Anastacia

    Anastacia New Member

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    Your "goal"? So far you've said scriptures were not about water baptism when they are in fact about water baptism. And you have also been shown to be loveless towards others here. I hear gongs playing...and a false teacher to boot.
     
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