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Is God Omniscient?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by robert derrick, Jan 10, 2022.

  1. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    We love him, because he first loved us.

    How did God first love us? Which would include all souls from the beginning, such as Adam.

    When did God first love man?

    God did not first love us on the cross, but finished the work of His love for us on the cross.

    God first loved us in the beginning by allowing us free will, Who's love commands to love Him freely with all the heart, by choice not by predetermined selection before conception.

    There is no free will of any soul to choose to serve God from the heart, if every soul is prechosen and so made to come or not to come to Him.

    God purposed in Himself to save by faith, not by preselected making. God makes every soul equally the same in the lower parts of the earth to cover in the womb, that He may only choose by righteous judgment, them that He sees in the heart chooses Him freely.

    God commands us to live by faith, because He created all souls by faith, that some would choose Him freely from the heart, while others would choose not to.

    Preknown and selected and determined to be made differently: one to life and one to death, has no free will, and and so no choice at all to believe and obey Him.

    Them saved by preselection cannot live by faith, because they have no choice in the matter of faith.

    God has predetermined what manner of faith that saves, but not the choice of any soul to believe Him or not. That manner of faith preknown and chosen from everlasting is that of Jesus: the faith of God Himself before ever the world was.
     
  2. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Yes God forbid I should follow your word rather than Gods Word.
     
  3. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member

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    If ^ this is about Isaiah 45:7, a better translation for the word "evil" is actually "calamity"
     
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  4. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    Where did he argue that?

    Are you talking of God creating with the capacity to do evil, by creating with free will?

    My creation can do evil against my will?

    If ^ this is about Isaiah 45:7, a better translation for the word "evil" is actually "calamity"

    Ok, but how does He create calamity?

    Scripture also says He creates darkness. How does Light create darkness, especially Him that is Light and no darkness is in Him at all.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
  5. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    How not? What is your definition of God's omniscience.

    I take things literally. People say it means He knows all things that ever would be forehand, and He knows all things that ever were past.

    And yet, He tells us how He does not remember and therefore does not know all things past.

    I.e. give a definition of God's omniscience that is acceptable to Scripture, and I'll acknowledge as true.

    How did God not know Abraham's whole hearted fear of Him, until He saw what Abraham did. It was by this that God called him the Friend of God.

    I cannot reconcile God would have all men to be saved, and searches the hearts for them that love Him, and Calvin's predetermination by God for some souls to be saved, and others only to be destroyed, with no chance of salvation.
     
  6. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    He just tosses random spirit parts together in a bag and is sometimes quite surprised at what He finds He has done?
    Like a drunk who discovers only later what he did the night before, after someone sober tells him..


    The question is not whether He knows what He did, but whether He chooses to know beforehand what He will do in the case of specific souls.

    The question is simple: Is Calvin correct by using God's omniscience as means to teach predetermined nature of souls, and so prejudges their outcome for life or destruction, before making them in the womb.

    Are souls born into this world already judged by God to be destroyed or saved.

    Does God purposely make a soul fit only for destruction, so that there is no need to search that heart nor to call that soul unto Himself: the gospel is not preached for that soul to hear and believe. The gospel is predetermined as useless for that soul.

    I don't believe that due to God calling all men to repent everywhere and believe His gospel, and that He would not have any soul on earth to perish, but to be saved.

    And so, I suppose the better question would be, how does Calvin misuse the omniscience of God to preach a false doctrine of predetermination before conception.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
  7. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    He just tosses random spirit parts together in a bag and is sometimes quite surprised at what He finds He has done?

    And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

    Jesus is saying His soul is the bread of Life.

    Souls are the bread of God: He makes and bakes them all equally in the lower parts of the earth, to cover them in the womb upon the earth, with faith of them returning unto Him.

    The only Soul he has not made is His own, but He makes each soul with love and great care equally, that it might return unto Himself and be conformed to the image of the Bread of Life:

    Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days.

    God knows what He is doing perfectly in perfectly making each soul exactly the same, being prepared exactly in the same way each time He does so.

    And He seeks to find each soul return unto Himself on this earth: to be born of water and of the Spirit, that whosoever will return unto Him by the faith of Jesus, shall enter into the kingdom of God.

    God makes His bread perfectly the same, and He casts His bread upon the waters of this life, seeking to find them returning to Him by His faith.

    I do not believe in a predetermination of which souls will made for bread to return to Himself, and for bread that will remain afloat away from Him in this life.

    God creates each soul by perfect knowledge of how to do so equally, without prejudging any, and certainly not by corrupting any in the making.

    God creates each soul with love and great care, not with such love for some and disdain for others. God does not make and bake one soul well and another soul not. God is the Perfect baker: He will not purposely make any bread corruptly.

    He makes each soul by knowledge, and by faith He casts His bread upon the waters, knowing of a certainty some shall and some shall not return to Him, but then that is the price He is willing to pay in making bread that can both believe and do His will by choice: Free will.
     
  8. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    how can he choose not to foresee something without seeing what he doesn't want to see?

    I'll answer; however, first I must acknowledge my error.

    Thinking of Wrangler's post and comparing it with Scripture: God is omniscient. He did foreknow all things of creation before creation.

    The title of this thread should have been How is God Omniscient?, and so I will start another thread with that.

    And so, I unwittingly started a thread that stirred up unnecessary wrath.

    Calvin's predetermination is wrong, not God's omniscience.

    I believe harmony can be achieved here when one realizes God created time and therefore, exists outside of time. To him, our unfolding story is like a static painting. He only need look at a particular area of the painting to ‘know’ our fate, as opposed to pre-determining our destiny.

    The answer is God foreknew everything, not because He foresaw it in His mind only, but because He actually saw and watched all things come to pass, as that came to pass:

    For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. (Ps 90)

    God is omniscient not by foreseeing all things in His mind only, but by seeing it all come to pass: He watched it from beginning to end already.

    And so wrote all He needed for it in Scripture, which was written before ever the world began in His own book sealed until the time of giving it to His prophets and apostles in due time:

    And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

    The Spirit gave His prewritten Scriptures into the world from time to time at exactly the right time, because He had already seen that time, and Christ would come to unlock all Scripture on earth in the fullness of time, which the Spirit also saw before.

    God foreknows, because He's already watched it, and so He knows exactly when, because He's already seen it.
     
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  9. CadyandZoe

    CadyandZoe Well-Known Member

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    Romans 9.
    Paul is arguing that salvation doesn't depend on the "man who wills or the man who runs." Obviously God created man with freedom of the will, but with regard to judgment, we are all condemned because we are all sinners. The fact that mankind has freedom of the will indicts him as responsible for his evil choices. Therefore, Salvation can't come that route. God is saving human beings on another basis.

    In Romans 9, Paul argues that salvation is predicated on God's choice. The individual has no say in the matter. If anyone is saved, it isn't a matter of equity, fairness, or justice. The basis of salvation is mercy, and God can have mercy on whomever he choses.

    Paul rhetorically asks, "Is God unjust then?" He answers, "no, because God is the creator and as the creator, he has the right to treat his creation however he wants.

    Romans 9:14-18
    What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

    Here is where Paul defends God's honor, arguing that God is not unjust to pick and choose whom to save according to his own criteria because he has the right of authorship.

    You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
    I believe you were asking a similar question earlier. We all ask the same question in light of Paul's shocking statements here. How can God be a just God if he is creating evil people doing evil?

    On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?
    This interrogative is not meant as a rebuke or a reproach. Rather, Paul invites the reader to remember WHAT we are. From God's standpoint, each of us is "the thing molded."

    The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
    Just as a human potter has the right to make any kind of vessel he desires from his clay, God has the right to make any kind of person he wants. He has the right to create an evil person, for instance, for the sole purpose of judging that person. It isn't evil of God to create an evil person on whom to pour out his wrath because, as Paul argues, God has the right to do this.

    22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory . . .?

    God's creation is not arbitrary or capricious. There is a reason and a purpose for all that he makes, every situation he makes and every circumstance he makes. It all has a purpose and the purpose is good.
     
  10. Bob Estey

    Bob Estey Well-Known Member

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    It would seem to me God was always omniscient.
     
  11. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    True. I've been corrected. The real argument is about Calvin's erroneous predetermination of souls based upon God's omniscience.
     
  12. Bob Estey

    Bob Estey Well-Known Member

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    I'm no expert on Calvinism, but I don't think the Lord can pass judgment on me before I do anything.
     
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  13. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    The fact that mankind has freedom of the will indicts him as responsible for his evil choices.

    Good point. Thanks. Though evil abounds in this wicked world, doing evil is not justified even with sinners, since we do have free will to do good or evil.

    In Romans 9, Paul argues that salvation is predicated on God's choice. The individual has no say in the matter. If anyone is saved, it isn't a matter of equity, fairness, or justice. The basis of salvation is mercy, and God can have mercy on whomever he choses.

    If you're arguing for Calvin's predetermination of salvation of some vs others, I disagree completely. Every soul has a say in the matter based upon faith from the heart and choosing to serve the Lord or the devil.

    God's salvation is by grace through faith, without which no soul is saved. He choice of mercy is based upon His power to search the very hearts for true faith in Him, vs just lip service of faith alone, which is dead.

    It is therefore based upon His righteous judgment of the heart, by first searching the heart, and also seeing the works of faith, as He did with Abraham, who was justified with God by works, when offering up Isaac according to God's command.

    Paul rhetorically asks, "Is God unjust then?" He answers, "no, because God is the creator and as the creator, he has the right to treat his creation however he wants.

    While God is indeed omnipotent, yet He also must judge according to His own Word, that he not be an unjust judge and liar, and He has declared that His salvation would not be based upon how good a person lives by will of man, but His justification of judging some good and some evil, is based upon His searching of the heart to prove man's 'willingness and running', is from faith of the heart, and not from his own righteousness.

    God showed the righteousness of His judgment and mercy, by choosing Jacob over Esau while yet in the womb: Searching the hearts even in the womb.

    to pick and choose whom to save according to his own criteria because he has the right of authorship.

    Which 'criteria' is His faith seen in the heart, not just by appearance of man in the flesh. God doesn't choose anyone without His faith in the heart, nor does He reject anyone with His faith in the heart. The faith that He searches the heart for is the faith that He Authors: the faith of Jesus.

    I difference of criteria being offered here, is between that of predetermined prejudgment vs that of judging the heart for faith.

    God has the right to make any kind of person he wants.

    And He has the right by power to make any souls any way He wants, and so has the power to make every souls the same equally as He wants. I would only agree to His shaping a vessel from the womb, having searched the heart, not predetermined to do so before the womb.

    It isn't evil of God to create an evil person on whom to pour out his wrath because, as Paul argues, God has the right to do this.

    He has the right of power to do so, but I do not believe He uses His power to do so. God that is love makes every soul in the beginning with love and great care equally in the lower part of the earth and to be covered in the womb. God then is justified in how He judges any soul in and after the womb based on His perfect discerning of the heart:

    For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    His Word searching the heart by His Spirit discerns the true judgment of the heart, since discerning used here is that of skillful judgment.

    Scripture teaches the omniscience of God, not the predetermining prejudgment of God before a soul is ever made: otherwise is no purpose for God to judge each soul by searching and discerning the heart, which is what he does.

    God's creation is not arbitrary or capricious. There is a reason and a purpose for all that he makes, every situation he makes and every circumstance he makes. It all has a purpose and the purpose is good.

    True. Which is why He chooses by His own counsel and will not to predetermine and prejudge any soul before the time of their making, but making all souls equally with His call to come unto Him, to be answer one way or another by each soul from the heart: God creates every soul the same, that He would have all men to be saved, which would not be the case, if He purposely made some for destruction.

    What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

    God is willing to endure vessels He sees in the heart, as being fitted for destruction, and He makes His power known by enduring such with meekness, which is power controlled and not used before the time.

    Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

    And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory . . .?

    I.e. He does endure vessels of wrath for a reason: to save some from destruction.

    Paul was speaking of us all as being vessels of wrath by sin and trespasses. he was not speaking of some vessels made for wrath and some not made for wrath: We all were vessels of wrath whnsoeve3r we sinned in this world.

    Are you saying you were never a vessel of wrath, yet were a sinner like all other sinners of the world?

    He endures all such for a season. Why? That He might show His glorious salvation and mercy upon them that believe from the heart and are now made vessels of mercy, rather than of wrath: New creatures in Christ Jesus, no longer vessels of wrath but of mercy.

    And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    God endures sinners in the world, that He might save some before destruction, and He would have all such be saved, but not all such believe, though all were created equal in the womb.
     
  14. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    He can see our hearts to know our sincerity, but:

    But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds.

    And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    The Spirit has already seen and watched all the works of man on earth, and so God foreknew all such before Creation, but no man is forejudged: prejudged of God, without God breaking His own Word of Scripture.

    God's omniscience is no basis for Calvin's predeterminism of souls: The true doctrine of omniscience is God's, the the false doctrine of predeterminism is Calvin's alone.

    The righteous judgment of God is according to our deeds, and the unrighteous judgement of Calvin is according to His predeterminism before ever a deed was done.
     
  15. Bob Estey

    Bob Estey Well-Known Member

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    God is a good predictor, but he has to wait for me to make a mistake before he can discipline me for that mistake.
     
  16. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    True. He only judges what He sees.

    He's not a predictor though. His omniscience is that He has already watched all things of creation from above the heavens, while they came to pass, and so He has foreknown all things of creation before creation.

    He foreknows who does what, and does not predestinate who does what.
     
  17. Bob Estey

    Bob Estey Well-Known Member

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    Either way, he can't discipline us for mistakes until we make them.
     
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  18. CadyandZoe

    CadyandZoe Well-Known Member

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    We are not talking about Calvin's opinion. We are talking about Paul's opinion.
     
  19. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    God is omniscient. Try looking at the thread how.

    He's omniscient by seeing all things come to pass even as they do so, and so knowing all things before they come to pass.

    He is omniscient of who, by seeing who, not by predetermining who.
     
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