Is it ok to Give = $$$$$$$

[Behold]

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Probably the first tithe was given by : Gen 14:17-20: “at the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley), after his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him. Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. And he blessed him and said: “Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; And blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand.” = And he gave him a TITHE of all. Tithe means 10%

So, that happened BEFORE the Law was given by Moses.

If we read the last book of the OT we read : Malachi 3:10 ""Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows. """

1st Corinthians 16: 2 says..., """"On the first day of the week let each one of YOU (born again) lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.""

Many versions of the bible define the "lay something aside" as money.

We are told in 1st Timothy 5:17 : "Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine", and that is certainly talking about a paycheck.

Paul said this.. 2nd Corinthians 11:8 ... " I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you."""

and... IN Philippians 4:10... ""But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly that now at last your care for me has flourished again"". And Saint that "care" is MONEY. $$$$$

Saint when you love someone, you'll give them time, compassion, and often this is completely related to MONEY being given to them.. I think you know that....

So, the tithe predates the Law, and God loves a cheerful Giver.

If you have a minister or know of a local teacher, who is blessing you, and helping you grow in Grace, then you should bless them with your money and your care and be available to help.

If you belong to a Local Church that accepts tithes and offerings, and you feel to Give, because you believe that you are giving to God by giving to a Church that is serving Him with missionaries and outreach, and REAL ministry, and not just a place to show up and be entertained by the music and a charming Talker, then give as your heart leads you to do, as much as you want. "Cheerful giver"

If all of that is obnoxious to you, and you want to give and have it be as pure a gift to God as you can find a way to do it, then just give to the Poor., as that is the finest tithe and offering of all.

Find a hungry family, where this virus has caused them to be in a financial mess, and help them for months, till all is right again. Thats a tithe or an offering...... does not matter the semantics. Its just GIVING....thats all it is.. Giving into the need of the harmed and the hurting.

Or find a ministry that specifically feeds and helps these..the poor, and give there...

If you feel, ultimately that you dont need to share your money into any type of ministry, and you just want to keep it all , then you ARE limiting God.

How? Because all your money. is HIS.....Its not yours...So, if you keep His money from Helping others, you are LIMITING GOD.. Understand how that works? See it now?

Someone said that what you let go from your hand, God will let go from His.....and thats true.

And there is one more verse i will share with you...

Proverbs 11:24. " There is that which scattereth, and yet increaseth; and there is that which withholdeth more than is meet, but it tendeth to poverty.""

So, this verse is teaching that giving leads to getting back from God, and being stingy and greedy, leads to LACK and living in a state of being constantly " needy"

 

[Randy Kluth]

I don't believe the "tithe" that Abraham paid to Melchizedek was expressed as a routine, monthly "tithe." It sounds like it was a one-time payment to express gratitude to God for saving Lot, by giving a tenth of the plunder. This is hardly a regular "tithe." I think the story is given as a kind of explanation, by Moses, of God's intention to ultimately demand 1/10th of Israel's produce in the Promised Land. It was not a tithe on all income, but largely, on farming income. It was designed to support a priesthood, which is perhaps the equivalent of today's ministry.

So I agree that the ministry needs to be paid today, if they are to devote themselves fully to the work of God. On the other hand, there is no priestly system with offerings and sacrifices. We have a different kind of ministry today, and it obviously does not require a tenth of farming income. For one thing--we don't all have farms today!

Nonetheless, we are not Israel and we're not under the Law any more. And as I said, Abraham's "tithe" to Melchizedek was hardly a regular tenth payment to him! So enough of the pre-Law "tithe" concept! Nowhere in the NT teachings are we told to "tithe" in the sense of a "tenth."

Neither are we told that our support of the ministry can be suspended by giving money only to the poor. The ministry entails preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, and not just feeding the poor, who we "will always have with us." It is far more important to feed people spiritually than to feed them physically.

There are many secular programs that feed the poor. It is our responsibility to feed Christians in our fellowship, both physically and spiritually.

I think it's an important subject. If we are to have ministries today, they must be financially supported--not just by throwing a few dollars into the plate, but rather, by responsible Christians paying things like utility bills, taxes, supplies, maintenance, etc.

 

[justbyfaith]

Tithing did indeed predate the law...

And the mandate to do it is also found not only in the law but in the prophets (specifically Malachi 3).

In the passage in question, God tells the people that they are robbing Him and therefore they are cursed with a curse.

Then He deals with the root of the problem...that they don't have the faith to give 10% of their income because they are worried about making ends meet.

He proceeds to tell them that they can test Him in this. This is the only place in scripture where God tells people to test Him other than in Isaiah 7:11-12 if you want to count that. The Lord promises them that if they will only obey His command to "bring the whole tithe into the storehouse" that they will see with their own eyes that He will pour out for them a blessing so large that they will not be able to receive it all.

I consider that in the New Testament, this blessing is not always measured in material wealth given back to the tither.

It can be measured in spiritual wealth (Ephesians 1:3).

 

[Randy Kluth]

Tithing did indeed predate the law...

And the mandate to do it is also found not only in the law but in the prophets (specifically Malachi 3).

In the passage in question, God tells the people that they are robbing Him and therefore they are cursed with a curse.

Then He deals with the root of the problem...that they don't have the faith to give 10% of their income because they are worried about making ends meet.

He proceeds to tell them that they can test Him in this. This is the only place in scripture where God tells people to test Him other than in Isaiah 7:11-12 if you want to count that. The Lord promises them that if they will only obey His command to "bring the whole tithe into the storehouse" that they will see with their own eyes that He will pour out for them a blessing so large that they will not be able to receive it all.

I consider that in the New Testament, this blessing is not always measured in material wealth given back to the tither.

It can be measured in spiritual wealth (Ephesians 1:3).

I reiterate--this is an important subject, and I don't wish to deemphasize that. It's just that it's equally important not to put Christians under the bondage of the Law, which is no longer a viable system. We are not under the Law of tithe, which was indeed supported by the Law, and by the Prophets who were under that Law. It was a Law exclusively for Israel, even if other ethnicities practices some kind of "tithe" law themselves.

I have no evidence that Abraham paid Melchizedek a tithe under any kind of "law of tithe?" It was, as I said, just a one-time payment, in effect, to God, because God had kindly delivered Lot back into his hands. It foreshadowed Israel's legal system from Mt. Sinai, but it was not part of that system, obviously.

So there is no "law of tithe" at all, since not even what Abraham practiced at one time in his life constituted a "law" either for himself or for others. To claim this is unsubstantiated. Abraham indeed did this one-time act *before the Law.* He did lots of things *before the Law,* but those things do not thereby become a law for Christians. He offered his son Isaac to death in sacrifice, but that does not become, thereby, a rule for all Christians!

Since God is the same "yesterday, today, and forever," what shall we learn from Abraham's "tithe?" It is the knowledge that God is the source of our success in war. He is the arbiter of justice, and the enabler of our wealth and health.

As for the Law of Tithe in Israel, we can learn of the need to support the ministry. Today we need not do this by a percentage, nor by farming, nor do we do it to sacrifice animals to appease God. Rather, we support a ministry that *today* is backed by God, and that is the Christian ministry. And we need to support ministries up to their actual needs and beyond, if so desired.

 

[justbyfaith]

Indeed, in the New Testament we are governed by the principle of "he who sows sparingly shall reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully shall reap also bountifully." (2 Corinthians 9:6).

I would say, however, that there is definitely a promise given in Malachi 3 that tells us that if we bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, the Lord will pour out a blessing that we will not be able to receive all of it, it is so great. Again, not necessarily a financial blessing (see Ephesians 1:3).

I suppose that in the New Testament we are called to actually give more than the prescribed OT 10%...

Luke 6:38 does indeed tell of the reality that there is a financial blessing associated with giving.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Indeed, in the New Testament we are governed by the principle of "he who sows sparingly shall reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully shall reap bountifully."

I would say, however, that there is definitely a promise given in Malachi 3 that tells us that if we bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, the Lord will pour out a blessing that we will not be able to receive all of it, it is so great. Again, not necessarily a financial blessing (see Ephesians 1:3).

I suppose that in the New Testament we are called to actually give more than the prescribed OT 10%...

Luke 6:38 does indeed tell of the reality that there is a financial blessing associated with giving.

I disagree. Anything we give "above and beyond" in the NT is considered a matter of free choice, not denying us a blessing. It is not a curse to avoid giving "above and beyond." It is a curse only when we are commanded to do something, and refuse to do it.

The curse in Malachi has to do with having a command to tithe, and Israel refusing to obey it. They were cursed for disobedience. We are not commanded to give a tenth in the NT. That is false teaching.

I do agree that we can increase our production when we give more bountifully, more freely. Generosity tends to be rewarded, but we do not give to get. We choose to be generous to spread the model of generosity to others. Others, then, tend to be generous in return.

When we go above and beyond to plant more seeds, we do get more production. We may not need it, but if we do so, this will be the result. What we actually need to do is determined by the circumstances. We do not need to give beyond our means, or to causes that cause our interests to suffer loss. But this is what some Faith Teachers preach, and I believe it to be wrong.

 

[justbyfaith]

We are not commanded to give a tenth in the NT. That is false teaching.

It is not false teaching (see Luke 11:42).

 

[Randy Kluth]

It is not false teaching (see Luke 11:42).

It is indeed false teaching because you're applying an OT rule to the NT Church!

Col 2.16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Rom 13.8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.

Gal 3.10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

We are not under the Law of Moses. We owe no debt to God over it. It was applied only to Israel and only prior to the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Once atoned for we are no longer under the Law of Moses. Rather, we are subject to the laws of Christ alone. In this "law," there is no requirement of a tenth. Period.

If we love Christ we will understand in his "Law" that we are to have love. And if we love those who minister for God, we will support them, to the degree we can. For the young and the weak this support may only consist of "prayer." However, those of us more mature would understand the actual need for money--sufficient to meet the need to pay bills, etc.

 

[Sabertooth]

@Behold , there is tithing and there is giving. I don't believe that God compels Christians to tithe under threat of punishment, but He still blesses the tithe. I don't expect God to make me a millionaire because I tithe, but I do expect Him to --and have seen Him-- make the other 90% go farther, as promised.

" 'Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
That there may be food in My house,
And [test] Me now in this,'
Says the Lord of hosts,
'If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
And pour out for you such blessing
That there will not be room enough to receive it.
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes,
So that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground,
Nor shall the vine fail to bear fruit for you in the field,'
Says the Lord of hosts;..." Malachi 3:10-11 NKJV

If you tithe, it is 10% of your income given to your church home. Anything else is considered "giving." We tithe off of net, earned income. Others calculate from their gross income. It just depends on how the Holy Spirit convicts you.

 

[Randy Kluth]

@Behold , there is tithing and there is giving. I don't believe that God compels Christians to tithe under threat of punishment, but He still blesses the tithe. I don't expect God to make me a millionaire because I tithe, but I do expect Him to --and have seen Him-- make the other 90% go farther, as promised.

" 'Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
That there may be food in My house,
And [test] Me now in this,'
Says the Lord of hosts,
'If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
And pour out for you such blessing
That there will not be room enough to receive it.
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes,
So that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground,
Nor shall the vine fail to bear fruit for you in the field,'
Says the Lord of hosts;..." Malachi 3:10-11 NKJV

If you tithe, it is 10% of your income given to your church home. Anything else is considered "giving." We tithe off of net, earned income. Others calculate from gross income. It just depends on how the Holy Spirit convicts you.

The Holy Spirit does *not* lead people to give a tenth of their "earned income." That's because the Holy Spirit has spoken through the Apostle Paul, who said we are under debt not to the Law, but to Christ. And Christ has required not one thing for us to receive salvation, save to love him alone. How far we go in supporting ministries is not a stipulation involving Salvation. Nor is it even a requirement that we meet any other standard than being responsible and loving. Certainly there is not "tenth" requirement!

The tithe to home church vs giving above and beyond is a common teaching by pastors, apparently. I've certainly heard it a lot. But it is false--it is *not* taught in the Scriptures.

We are not taught to give a tenth to our home church at all in the Scriptures. That applied *only to Israel under the Law of Moses!* It does not apply to NT Christianity. We should give, if we truly love Christ. But how much we give is between the individual and the Lord. There is no "tenth" rule. Please provide a Scriptural reference--there is none! They are all derived from the Law of Moses, which Paul said *does not apply to us!*

Gal 3.1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Rom 3.21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

What we are taught in the NT, with respect to giving, is that we should support the ministers of the Gospel. It is not a requirement for Salvation, but part of embracing Christ is embracing his love. And that love would want to support a ministry to produce that love in others.

 

[Sabertooth]

I believe that some OT practices are still beneficial even if they are not spiritual requirements, like

• hand-washing,
• kosher diet, and
• prophylactic male circumcision, etc.

They are only legalism if you do them in an attempt to satisfy Judaic Law.
After Pasteur et al., everybody learned the value of hand-washing.
Getting a prophylactic male circumcision* doesn't make one a "Judaizer." (I think that there are some differences between prophylactic & Judaic circumcisions, anyway.)

*Common in the USA and becoming more common in Africa.

 

[justbyfaith]

@Randy Kluth, you are a false teacher.

In Romans 8:7, we are told that the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The inverse of this: it can be rendered, that the spiritual mind is at peace with God; for it is subject to the law of the Lord, and cannot be otherwise.

The law of the Lord is written on the hearts and in the minds of New Covenant believers (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16).

The verses that you have quoted indicate that we do not obtain salvation by the works of the law.

However, this is not to say that once a man is saved, he does not, as the result of that salvation, obey the Lord in all of His commandments. For it is the love of God that we obey His commandments (Romans 13:8-10, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6).

Therefore if you have received the Holy Ghost by faith (Galatians 3:14) and the love of God through the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5), you will be obedient to the Lord in what He commands you to do.

Not as an attempt to earn salvation; but as acts of gratitude stemming out of the salvation that the Lord has given you.

That being said, I believe that you attempted to take advantage of the fact that I merely referenced, and did not quote, Luke 11:42. So I will quote it now in order to prove my point.

Luk 11:42, But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Here, Jesus says that the Pharisees were wrong to pass over judgment and the love of God while they "strained at the gnat" of tithing. He says here that they should have done judgment and the love of God without leaving the other things undone: which refers to their tithing.

So then, we are not to leave our tithing undone.

For if we are required not to pass over judgment and the love of God, and we are not Pharisees or scribes, then, even though we are not Pharisees or scribes, we ought not to leave our tithing undone.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is no "tenth" rule. Please provide a Scriptural reference--

Luke 11:42.

 

[justbyfaith]

Gal 5:22, But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Rom 3:21, But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 

[Behold]

I don't believe the "tithe" that Abraham paid to Melchizedek was expressed as a routine, monthly "tithe." It sounds like it was a one-time payment to express gratitude to God for saving Lot, by giving a tenth of the plunder.

My Thread is not about a "monthly tithe", and my response regarding Melchizedek, is not related to a monthly tithe.

Try reading more carefully.

 

[Behold]

@Behold , there is tithing and there is giving. .

My Thread is not concerned with tithing.
Its only concerned with allowing a believer to understand that all your money is God's.
Use it accordingly.

I dont put people under bondage to offerings or tithe.
My entire ministry is to free born again believers from any type of bondage......which is usually a bondage to a "sinning and repenting and confessing" = failed Discipleship.
I usually teach people how to escape their flesh by right believing.

But i do teach that God wound not tell you to give to the poor, if He didnt mean it.
Its not hard to understand...... that....if you are being spiritually fed by me, or a minister, and you are learning and growing, and you want to take God's money and invest it into the Light bill of the church or the outreach ministry, or even into the ministers bank account...its all GOOD, as its all God's money going back into God's work. Just be careful of the teacher. Be careful of what they are trying to do for you.
Dont give money to people who are teaching you how to worry about losing your salvation, or who keep you in bondage to trying to be good enough so that God will keep you.

The point of my Thread is that we need to give our time and money into God's work, and this becomes an issue for ME and for many people when we are not able to find a ministry or an outreach where we feel secure that we are actually giving into a NEED, and not into someone's GREED.

I give to the POOR.
This never fails for me, because i know that sleeping on the street and holding a sign that says "hungry- help" when its Summer heat, or winter cold, is not a joke.
I personally think that the USA should stop funding the "united nations" and Nasa, and take all that money and build a small safe and secure home for every Homeless Veteran who is living on the street for the last 5-10 yrs, = is living like a dog.

I give into the lives of poor people, as this not only blesses God, and blesses the poor, but there are strong blessing that are returned to you when you give to the poor and the hurting.
The most pure giving of your Christian life is to give it into the lives of the orphans, the poor......ect.
God truly honors "giving" when it goes into the life-support of people who are hurting and in pain and really need help.

 

[Agios]

I dont put people under bondage to offerings or tithe.

Really? WOW! I am so thankful that YOU and YOU alone don't do this to people. LOL

Does the Bible really say, "When Behold sets you free, you are free indeed?" Nope, not in mine.
Pride goes before destruction.......

 

[Randy Kluth]

@Randy Kluth, you are a false teacher.

Actually, you are acting as a false teacher when you say NT Christians must live by the Law of Tithe.

Any laws contained in the Law of Moses are no longer given us by that Covenant, but only come to us through Christ. And he said his burden is light. He informed Israel that they had to keep the Law. But he also said that he would bear their burden. Israel could achieve temporary righteousness and temporary redemption through the Law. But it could never obtain for them eternal salvation. That could only come by Christ.

[B][COLOR=#b30000][URL='https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/luk/11/42/s_984042']Luk 11:42[/URL], But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye [SIZE=5]tithe[/SIZE] mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: [SIZE=5]these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.[/SIZE]
[/COLOR][/B]
[COLOR=#000000]Here, Jesus says that the Pharisees were wrong to pass over judgment and the love of God while they "strained at the gnat" of tithing. He says here that they should have done judgment and the love of God without leaving the other things undone: which refers to their tithing.

So then, we are not to leave our tithing undone.

For if we are required not to pass over judgment and the love of God, and we are not Pharisees or scribes, then, even though we are not Pharisees or scribes, we ought not to leave our tithing undone.[/COLOR]

This command was given to Israel *while they were still under the Law.* Neither Israel nor any other nation is under the Law any longer. It is a dead law. It is heresy to say we need to go back under the Law and select rules to live by, based on our preference. Nowhere in the NT letters are we told to live by a Law of Tithe. If you think so, quote it. Either that, or keep your slanders to yourself.

 

[justbyfaith]

You are assuming the Old Testament is no longer valid.

Isa 8:20, To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Now I am not even saying that tithing is a law that must be kept.

But I will say that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and for ever (Hebrews 13:8, Malachi 3:6) and that this means that the OT prophets have a say in our doctrine (according to 2 Timothy 3:16 they do) because it is the same God who wrote the Old Testament who also wrote the New.

This means that when God says the whole nation is cursed with a curse because they are withholding tithes, that this applies to us today: and when He says that He will pour out a blessing that we will not have room enough to receive it if we will but bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that this applies to us today.

It is not presented in Malachi as a law; but it is given as a promise, that God will bless with a blessing those who will give to Him His proper due when it comes to their trusting Him in their financial situation.

I don't know if I'm saying things clearly enough tonight as I am somewhat tired tonight and may be beginning to experience burnout from ministry, I don't know. I covet the prayers of the saints on this. Hopefully I will feel better tomorrow.

 

[Behold]

Really? WOW! I am so thankful that YOU and YOU alone don't do this to people. LOL

Does the Bible really say, "When Behold sets you free, you are free indeed?" Nope, not in mine.
Pride goes before destruction.......

Let me ask you a question.
Do you sin and repent and sin and confess, and sin again?
Have you been doing this all your christian life?
Then your discipleship is a failure.
Is that my fault, or is that your fault?
Its really, not yours, and its certainly not mine.

The reason you and most readers here are failing to live Holy (perfected discipleship) is because you have been taught horrible theology.
You've actually been taught by liars, from the pulpit, and from commentaries, that your discipleship is to EXPECT to sin and repent and confess.
You've been taught that this is "christianity", and that is a lie.
So, until you decide to stop living a lie, you will continue to fail as a Christian.
Im here to help that situation end.
I know how.