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Is Jesus God Incarnate?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Soul, Aug 4, 2021.

  1. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    Of course Jesus was born by Mary, therefore Mary was his mother - how can you deny that! (He was begotten by God, but God did not give birth to him!)

    So, you refuse to make difference between a woman giving Him birth and not begetting Him, yet you have no problem making difference between God begetting Him and not giving Him birth.

    I.e. you refuse to distinguish His soul and body in being born of a woman, while doing so in being born of God.

    The Son can be begotten of God, without God bodily giving Him birth, but the body of the Son cannot be given birth by a woman, without the woman also begetting the Son.


    You are an intellectual hypocrite: You are more than willing to acknowledge the difference between physical and spiritual birth pertaining to God, but you have no such willingness to acknowledge the same difference pertaining to a woman.

    You exercise this hypocrisy only so you can reject the Son of God begotten of God alone, and not of woman, while creating for yourself a christ made and begotten of a woman.

    Jesus Christ is made a quickening Spirit. The created christ is made an earthly demigod.
     
  2. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and give birth to a son, and will call his name ‘Jesus. Jacob became the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, from whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. She shall give birth to a son. You shall call his name Jesus, for it is he who shall save his people from their sins. She gave birth to her firstborn son.

    Mary had a son. The Son was begotten only of the Father.

    The baby boy called Jesus was the firstborn son of Mary. The man Christ Jesus and the Word was the only Son of the Father.

    In natural child birth a virgin gave birth to a son, and called his name Jesus.

    The Son begotten only of the Father is the resurrected man Christ Jesus and is called the Everlasting Father, Wonderful counsellor, and Prince of peace.

    The fact that Scripture speaks of Mary's firstborn son shows: She gave birth to other sons, and that the firstborn son was like them in the flesh.

    It does not show that The Son was the firstborn of Mary, neither did she give birth to other Sons. And so, The Son is the firstborn of many brethren:

    Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God.

    Knowing Christ the son of Mary after the flesh, is not knowing Christ the Son of God after the Spirit.

    And knowing Christ the Son of God by the Spirit is to no more know Him after the flesh: the carnal mind only knows Him as a son of Mary, but the spiritual mind knows Him as the Son of God and Saviour, and the flesh is no no profit at all.

    Created christs only speak of christ by the flesh, for all they know is the flesh.

    Christians speak of Christ by the Spirit, for all they know is the Spirit.

    Christians no more know Him as the son of Mary, but only as The Son of God.

    Created christs never know Him as the Son of God, because they only want to acknowledge Him as a son of Mary.

    The gospels of Jesus speak of His days in the flesh as a man, the epistles speak of the Lord and Savior Christ Jesus as the true God and Redeemer.

    The gospel of John is the last gospel and the transition: The Son was God the Word made flesh of a woman.

    Created christs never acknowledge the Word made flesh, because they only believe Mary had a son.

    How can you be ignorant of these details?

    Christians are not ignorant of the details of the natural birth of a virgin woman to become the firstborn son of Mary.

    Created christs are willfully ignorant of the details of the true God and man Christ Jesus begotten only of the Father to be made of a woman.

    At Christmas of all times!

    Right. Baby boy Jesus was born in December. Got it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2022
  3. keithr

    keithr Active Member

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    Father's beget, mothers give birth.

    I don't understand that sentence - it doesn't make sense to me.

    A woman cannot beget - a man is needed to supply his seed for that. In Jesus' case it was God's Holy Spirit that supplied the seed and begat Jesus' human body.


    Am I? What is a "spiritual birth"? To me that means being born with a spiritual body/nature. God hasn't had a physical or spiritual birth as far as I'm aware. We are not told how He came into existence.

    What has a woman's physical and spiritual birth got to do with Jesus being born by Mary?

    No I don't! The scripture verses I quoted clearly stated that Jesus was begotton by God - by His Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18,20).

    I never once said that Mary begat Jesus! How did you get that idea into your head?

    After his resurrection, not at his human birth!

    If you say so.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2022
  4. keithr

    keithr Active Member

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    Correct. So you agree now that you were mistaken to say:

    Correct. I'm glad you agree with that now!

    Jesus was the only begotten son of God. God had many other sons, e.g. Genesis 6:2 and also Adam, but Jesus was His only begotten son. It was Jesus who created all the other sons of God. All descendants of Adam and Eve are sons of Adam, not sons of God, but to those that believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, and is our Lord and saviour, Jesus gives the right, or privilege, to become sons of God - John 1:12.

    Technically, the Scriptures don't speak of Jesus being Mary's firstborn child. It's just obvious that he was because Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus!

    You are confusing things by subtly capitalising 'the' and 'son'. Why not explain what you mean more explicitly? The son of Mary was Jesus, who was the Son of God made flesh, i.e. God changed Jesus' nature from spirit being to human being, but he was the same person at all times.

    And yet Jesus said if you knew Jesus after the flesh then you also knew God - John 14:7 (WEB):

    (7) If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you know him, and have seen him.”​

    Yes. Paul said, 2 Corinthians 5:15-17 (WEB):

    He died for all, that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who for their sakes died and rose again.
    Therefore we know no one after the flesh from now on. Even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more.
    Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.​

    He is saying that we no longer consider Jesus as just a man, a descendant of David, but now we know him as the Son of God. Also we are not to regard anyone from a purely fleshly (imperfect) point of view, but look upon them as endowed with a new vital principle from above which has changed their heart. As verse 17 says, when "anyone is in christ, he is a new creation", the old things have passed away and all things have become new.

    If you're referring to considering Jesus created by God, before the creation of all other things, then it doesn't make sense that those that believe that would only know of Jesus as a man.

    But Christians do recognise that he was made flesh and born as the son of Mary, and that he lived amongst mankind on the earth for 33.5 years.

    Whether you believe that Jesus was created by God or somehow given birth to by God (was part of the essence of God's spirit being that became separated from Him), I'm fairly sure all Christians believe that Jesus was and is the Son of God.

    I've never heard of any Christians not believing that the Son of God was made flesh, the "Son of Man" as Jesus called himself.

    I'm not.

    And yet you had said that "Christ was not the son of Mary", which is why I questioned that statement!

    No he wasn't! Surely you know he was born around the beginning of October, and that the Roman Catholic Church chose 25th December because it was the day that pagan sun worshipers celebrated the rebirth of the sun, so the Church wanted to replace that with celebrating the birth of the Son. It was chosen as a method of trying to convert pagans to Christianity, not because it was Jesus' actual brithday.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2022
  5. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    Having looked through your comments, I believe I now know the defining differences between your created christ and Jesus Christ:

    You are confusing things by subtly capitalizing 'the' and 'son'. Why not explain what you mean more explicitly?

    Scripture makes distinction between the son and the Son: the firstborn son of Mary and the only begotten Son of God.

    The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    That holy thing was not Christ, but was only the body prepared by the Spirit for Christ to dwell in: it was made of the flesh of the woman, even as the body of Eve was from that of Adam. And it was also holy, even as that of Adam, because it was not made of the seed of sinful man, but rather had the promised seed of Abraham therein, which is Christ.

    The baby boy born of Mary was called Jesus her son, but Christ Himself was only begotten of the Father: only the body was given birth by Mary, but the Son was begotten only of the Father, not begotten of man nor born of woman.

    And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

    Mary brought forth her firstborn son, which was the body of Christ, who they called Jesus according to the Scripture: Christ was not that holy thing, but was the promised seed in that holy body in obedience to the commandment of the Father.

    Nor was He born of the natural seed of Abraham and David, even as not that of Joseph:

    The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

    Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

    His body was made of the seed of David: made of the flesh of a daughter of David called Mary.

    The Word was not born of Mary, but only His body, which holy thing was called her son:

    The Word was not the Son, nor was God the Father, until the Word obeyed the commandment of God to came down from heaven and dwell in that fleshy body made of a woman, which was prepared by the Spirit for Him.

    Only the body in which the Son dwelled was Jesus the son of Mary. Mary was not the mother of the Son Jesus Christ. She had motherhood over the body, but not over the Son:

    Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee?

    He honored her as the woman that gave birth to His body, not as His mother, not as the mother of Christ:

    But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

    The difference between Christians believing on the Son as God Himself, and them believing in a created christ, is that the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh of His own power in obedience to the commandment of the Father.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2022
  6. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    The son of Mary was Jesus, who was the Son of God made flesh, i.e. God changed Jesus' nature from spirit being to human being, but he was the same person at all times.

    And here is a defining error of a created christ, instead of Jesus Christ: God the Christ confirmed the covenant with Abraham before the law (Gal 3:16), and also gave the law to Moses from the mount.

    God did not 'change' the Word, no more than God ever changed Himself: the Word was God and is God.

    The Word never changed Himself, but only made Himself flesh on earth by commandment of the Father, to dwell in a body prepared of the Spirit: that holy thing was the uncorrupted body made of the flesh of Mary.

    It was not born of the natural seed of man, but was made of the flesh of a daughter of David, which the Word entered in obedience to God.

    In Jesus' case it was God's Holy Spirit that supplied the seed and begat Jesus' human body.

    Once again, this is the error of the created christ: Christ Himself was that seed.

    Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    Christ Himself is the seed of promise which He made to Abraham and confirmed it in a covenant with Him, which He also promised to David in prophecy of Scripture:

    Christ the promised seed of Abraham and of David came into the world to dwell in the flesh, which was prepared by the Spirit from the natural seed of Abraham and David through Mary.

    The Holy Spirit now plants that seed of Christ into the souls of them that believe and obey Him, and so we are new creatures created in Him.

    He was not created a new creature at all.

    Created christs are false christs who know not the difference between the promised seed of Abraham, which is Christ, and the natural seed of man, nor do they believe Christ Himself came down from heaven in obedience to the Father, to dwell in that body prepared for Him by the Spirit.

    Likewise, they know nothing of being born of the Spirit, which is not a force, but is God Himself, even as the Father and the Word are.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2022
  7. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    Whether you believe that Jesus was created by God or somehow given birth to by God (was part of the essence of God's spirit being that became separated from Him).

    And so again, another defining difference between the carnal mind of a created christ and the mind of Christ and of the Spirit had by all who believe the Son to be honored as the true God, even as the Father is honored as the true God:

    Christ was neither created, nor 'somehow' given birth by God, but rather the body of Jesus was given birth by Mary, and Christ the promised seed entered therein by commandment of the Father.

    At that moment of Christ entering into that prepared holy thing in the womb of a virgin woman, was the Word then the Son, and the only God remaining in heaven was then the Father, who was therefore the only true God remaining in heaven alone.

    Before that time of commandment of God and obedience of the Word, there was God, the Word, and the Spirit who created the heaven and the earth and made man in their own image.

    Neither is the Son 'part of the essence' or Being of God, but rather each of the Three being the Father, The Son, and the Spirit are the everlasting Being that is the true God:

    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    Each is being God and all three are being God, and so all three are one in being God.

    And the one and only time time one was ever separated was on the cross, when the Son bare the sins of the world upon His soul, and the Father turned from His own Son, because He was of purer eyes than to behold evil.

    The Son took upon Himself flesh and the form of a servant: He who was the One Being God in the form of God and equal with God, made Himself of no reputation, not being made so by God, except by commandment of the Father.

    When God commanded the Word to be made flesh, then was He the Father, and when the Word straightway in the twinkling of an eye obeyed, and made Himself of no reputation to enter into that holy thing of flesh in Mary's womb, He was the only begotten Son of the Father.

    And with the resurrection of the Son Jesus Christ, now there is the Father, the Word, and the Spirit who are forever Three and are One.

    And yet Jesus said if you knew Jesus after the flesh then you also knew God.

    By seeing and knowing The Son's words and deeds in obedience to the commandment of the Father, we both have seen and known what the Father commanded Him to do: it is not by seeing and knowing the flesh, that we see Jesus now in heavenly places, neither shall any eyes of sinful flesh ever see God, neither the Father, nor the Son, nor the Spirit.

    Therefore, know we Him anymore after the flesh, because we know more look to the flesh of His body dead on the cross, but rather to the power of His resurrected body to be like Him, when He appears a second time.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2022
  8. keithr

    keithr Active Member

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    1 John 3:9 (ASV):
    Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.​

    Christians are begotten by God, not Jesus. We have God's seed in us, not Jesus' seed. We are to become adopted sons of God, not sons of Jesus. We are Jesus' brethren and bride, but not his sons. We have Jesus' spirit in our hearts, but not his seed - Galations 4:4-7 (ASV):

    (4) but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
    (5) that he might redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
    (6) And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
    (7) So that thou art no longer a bondservant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.​
     
  9. keithr

    keithr Active Member

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    There is only one almighty God - you seem to believe in multiple Gods! At least you don't seem to think the 'Holy Spirit' was also another God!

    God made the heavens and earth through Jesus. Jesus performed the act of creation according to God's instructions. The "Spirit" (no such being) was not involved. (Colossians 1:16-20.)

    You're quoting spurious text. I'm sure you know that. The actual Scriptures is 1 John 5:7-8 (WEB):

    (7) For there are three who testify:
    (8) the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and the three agree as one.​

    Are you saying that you don't think that Jesus was the Son of God before he became human? I believe Proverbs 8 is talking about Jesus, confirming that he was a son of God - Proverbs 8:22-31 (WEB):

    (22) “Yahweh possessed [Hebrew qanah - can mean create] me in the beginning of his work, before his deeds of old.
    (23) I was set up [Hebrew nacak - can mean anointed] from everlasting, from the beginning, before the earth existed.
    (24) When there were no depths, I was born, when there were no springs abounding with water.
    (25) Before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was born;
    (26) while as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the beginning of the dust of the world.
    (27) When he established the heavens, I was there; when he set a circle on the surface of the deep,
    (28) when he established the clouds above, when the springs of the deep became strong,
    (29) when he gave to the sea its boundary, that the waters should not violate his commandment, when he marked out the foundations of the earth;
    (30) then I was the craftsman by his side. I was a delight day by day, always rejoicing before him,
    (31) rejoicing in his whole world. My delight was with the sons of men.​
     
  10. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

    The God from everlasting was One Being God, and was necessary to be Three Being God in the beginning to create the heaven and the earth: God, the Word, and the Spirit.

    God commanded, the Word spoke, and the Spirit moved to create.

    And so, in the beginning, the Word was with God, and was God, and was the same true God as the God from everlasting.

    God would never have another God that He worshipped and served.

    Not another God, but the same One God that was Three in the beginning. Worship no. Serve yes. NO Scripture says Jesus ever worshipped the Father. It is the Son who the angels are commanded to worship.

    The Word obeyed and served God to speak to the Spirit, who obeyed and served the Word to do the work.

    Even as God has sworn by Himself, there being none greater to swear by, so He has served Himself, being equal with God.

    The Word was Almighty God speaking with Abraham as Christ, in whom the covenant was confirmed (Gal 3).

    The Word made Himself known as Jehovah to the children of Israel from the mount.

    The Word was called Jesus, when He was made flesh.

    The Word served God in the beginning to create heaven and earth, and He served God the Father in the days of His flesh, as the Son of God.

    And so, while there was not Three from everlasting, there was Three to create the world, so that all was created by Them, and man in Their image.

    The Word and Christ was One of the Three in the beginning, chosen to be the One made flesh on earth.

    Even as He obeyed God to create heaven and earth, so He obeyed the Father to make new creatures on earth for heaven.

    Only God can create. Only God can forgive sins. Only God can save the soul, and only God can resurrect the dead body.

    The true God knew what was to be separated from the God from everlasting by sins borne on the cross. That same true God also knew what was to be saved on the cross, when He obeyed the Father and was a quickening Spirit that was dead and now is alive evermore, at which time He departed His body upon the cross to go and preach to the Spirits in prison.
     
  11. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    There is only one almighty God - you seem to believe in multiple Gods!

    Your unbelief and false accusation of the doctrine of Christ, does not make it untrue.

    For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

    Jesus performed the act of creation according to God's instructions.

    The Father commanded, the Word spoke, and the Spirit moved to create.

    The "Spirit" (no such being) was not involved.

    And the Spirit moved upon the face of the deep.

    Your rejection of Scripture does not make Scripture untrue.

    You're quoting spurious text.

    Your pseudo manuscript scholarship for throwing out Scripture, does not mean a thing in the doctrine of Christ. You have your created christ book, and I have my Christ the Lord God Almighty Bible.

    Are you saying that you don't think that Jesus was the Son of God before he became human?

    The Word was not the Son, nor was God the Father, until the Word obeyed God and entered into the body prepared for Him by the Spirit. Until then, there was only prophecy of the Son in Psalms 2.

    I believe Proverbs 8 is talking about Jesus, confirming that he was a son of God.

    Your false belief resulting in a created christ by wresting of Scripture is foolishness personified.

    Proverbs 8 speaks of the wisdom by which God, the Word, and the Spirit created heaven and earth:

    The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

    The Word that was God and the same true God as the God from everlasting was not wisdom personified, no more than was the God from everlasting.

    For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God.

    Your willingness to make wisdom a son of God, is the foolishness of the Greeks, who by wisdom knew not God.

    Which is not surprising, since all your beliefs are based upon humanist knowledge. Like the Gnostics of old, you deify wisdom and knowledge, and think to search out the truth of God contrary to the Scriptures.
     
  12. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    Jesus performed the act of creation according to God's instructions.

    The book of created christs talks like humanists talk, and does not speak as Scripture speaks:

    In the beginning was God, the Word, and the Spirit, and God commanded creation, the Word spoke the creation, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters to do the work of creating it.

    Sounds much much better than the created christ 'act' of creation: the created christ is a clown show putting on an act, trying to act like he kn0ows what he's talking about.

    The mystery from the foundation of the world is the true God from everlasting Being Three in the beginning to create the heaven and the earth.

    That mystery is revealed to the saints of His church, who know the true God must be Three for redemption of their souls: Even as in the creation of the heaven and the earth, so is the creation of the new creatures in Christ Jesus.

    The Son came down out of heaven by the commandment of the Father, who remained on Their throne in heaven, and the Spirit prepared a body for the Son, and did the work of the Son's ministry on obedience to the Father.

    But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

    That is so so much better than some created christ inserted into a woman's womb, to do heroic things on earth, and then be deified as the next Hercules of Zeus-Jehovah.
     
  13. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth.

    For by him were all things created. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


    By Him were all things created by His wisdom.

    The Word was the LORD who created all things by wisdom, He was not the 'created' wisdom and christ, by whom the LORD created all things.

    Created christs are Gnostics who worship wisdom and knowledge to search out the things of the Spirit with carnal minds.

    For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God.

    The created christs are created in their own carnal image: Idolatry by knowledge and anthropomorphic humanism.
     
  14. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers.

    The throne of God in heaven was created in the beginning of creation by Him.

    He that creates the throne of God is that God.

    Before the world ever was, was the One true God from everlasting: No throne, no creation, no Three being God.

    The first creation of all things was the throne in heaven by the One true God from everlasting, upon which sat the Three: God commanding creation, the Word speaking the creation, and the Spirit moving from the throne to do the work of creating it.

    With the creation of the throne, the One Being God was Three Being God to sit thereon to create heaven and earth.

    And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
     
  15. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    All things were created by him, and for him: For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

    The mystery of the foundation of the world, when the Lord created all things by His wisdom:

    God, the Word, and the Spirit created all things: God commandment creation, by the Word's speaking of creation, and through the Spirit moving to create it.

    By Three Being God were all things were created by God, through God, and for God' pleasure:

    Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    The LORD is the Lord who created all things for the good pleasure of His will.
     
  16. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    The Word was in the beginning before all things were created, and was with God and was God, the Same was with God.

    The wisdom of John 1:1,2 is the mystery of the Godhead from the foundation of the world, to show how that the Same God can be with God and be God.

    The carnal mind refuses to even try and think about the things of the Spirit of God.

    Why? Because they hate the things of the Spirit that they cannot reason out of their own minds, nor see, nor touch.

    And so, they reject the Spirit altogether and prefer a force of nature instead.

    "The Force be with you!"
     
  17. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    And the Word was made flesh.

    God never became flesh, nor can God be flesh, nor can flesh and blood inherit the kingdom of God.

    And so for the Word was a body made of flesh of a woman by the Spirit.
     
  18. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    Let me get this right...

    3=1?
     
  19. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    If that is how the carnal mind reads these three are one, then go ahead.

    Having the mind of Christ I just say it the Scripture way: These three are one.

    Created christs cannot believe anything possible, that does not compute according to the mathematics of nature.

    Which is why they reject walking in the Spirit and only follow after a force of nature.
     
  20. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    Per the context of these 3 are one, is the next verse also 3 persons (spirit/water/blood)?

    Howbout these 3 are manifestations of 1?

    That works with both verses.


    7 For there are three PERSONS that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    8 And there are three PERSONS that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

    Or...

    7 For there are three MANIFESTATIONS that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    8 And there are three MANIFESTATIONS that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
     
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