1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Is Jesus God Incarnate?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Soul, Aug 4, 2021.

  1. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,929
    Likes Received:
    1,362
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The Aryan heresy that Jesus is not divinity, is unfortunately alive and well today.

    Even in the old testament it clearly says Jesus is the mighty God, and the everlasting father.

    Philippians two: verses six and seven clearly state that Jesus existed as God, before emptying himself to take the form of a man and a humble servant.

    The divinity of Jesus is not just clear in the Scriptures, it is unbelievably And ridiculously clear, for anyone who takes the time to actually study the Bible for themselves instead of listening to the watch towers propaganda and false teaching.
     
    robert derrick likes this.
  2. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,289
    Likes Received:
    712
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    It's ridiculously clear for anyone who wants to believe their Savior is God Himself.

    It's only ridiculous to them that prefer another created christ for themselves to idolize.
     
  3. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,696
    Likes Received:
    917
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    My thoughts are Jesus was made Almighty God, everlasting Father after his God raised him from the dead and inserted all of Himself fully and completely inside the omnipresent body of the resurrected Jesus.
     
  4. keithr

    keithr Active Member

    Messages:
    740
    Likes Received:
    139
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Why was it necessary for God to consist of 3 beings?

    Don't you realise how absurd that sounds? Is God so incompetent that He cannot communicate with others/Himself? How did God command it, so that it wasn't heard, except somehow by the 'Word', who then spoke it so that the 'Spirit' could hear the command and perform it? Or was God not on speaking terms with the 'Spirit?! Besides that absurdity, it's not what the Scriptures say. We are told that Jesus performed the creation of everything (Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2, Ephesians 3:9), and you believe that Jesus was the Word. Therefore it was the Word that performed the creation, not the 'Spirit'.

    Matthew 4:9-10 (WEB):
    (9) He said to him, “I will give you all of these things, if you will fall down and worship me.”
    (10) Then Jesus said to him, “Get behind me, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve him only.’”​

    Jesus refused to worship Satan. Jesus said that the Scriptures say that we should worship YHVH, our God, and serve Him only. That is what Jesus did. (And he confirmed that his and our God, YHVH, was his Father and our Father - John 20:17.)

    And yet Jesus said, in Mark 2:7-10 (WEB):

    (7) “Why does this man speak blasphemies like that? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
    (8) Immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, said to them, “Why do you reason these things in your hearts?
    (9) Which is easier, to tell the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven;’ or to say, ‘Arise, and take up your bed, and walk?’
    (10) But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralytic—​
     
  5. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,929
    Likes Received:
    1,362
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Except that is 100% completely unscriptural.
     
  6. keithr

    keithr Active Member

    Messages:
    740
    Likes Received:
    139
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Not 'the Spirit'. Read what it says more carefully (without Trinity biased spectacles!) in Genesis 1:2 -

    WEB: The earth was formless and empty. Darkness was on the surface of the deep and God’s Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters.
    KJV: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    I don't reject Scripture! I'm always referring to it.

    If your "Christ the Lord God Almighty Bible" includes very well known, and accepted as corrupt, additions to the Scriptures, and you mindlessly believe it all without question, then you're doomed to be deceived.

    So you don't believe Colossians 1:16 then? Speaking of Jesus, the Son of God, Paul says:

    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:​

    Why do you keep saying that I believe in a created Christ? Jesus was either created by God or he was born by God. We are told that he is the only-begotten son of God, therefore Jesus at one time did not exist while God did exist. In the Proverbs 8 passage it refers to being born, not created.

    Again, why don't you provide Bible references for quotes? Are you trying to discourage us from checking what you are claiming, or are you just very lazy? You are quoting Proverbs 3:19.

    Much of Proverbs talks about wisdom, in nearly all of the 31 chapters, but it's not all about wisdom. Verse 30 says:

    (KJV) Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
    (ESV) then I was beside him, like a master workman, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,​

    It's not talking about wisdom!

    Again no reference given. :rolleyes: 1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB):

    (21) For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.​

    I was not making 'wisdom' a/the Son of God. You've made that assumption. In the passage I quoted, Proverbs 8:22-31, the word wisdom is not mentioned.

    I do not make a god out of wisdom and knowledge. You obviously don't understand what I believe concerning God and His Son! It's not contrary to the Scriptures to search for the truth about God:

    Proverbs 25:2
    It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter.​
    2 Timothy 2:15 (MKJV)
    Study earnestly to present yourself approved to God, a workman that does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.​
     
  7. keithr

    keithr Active Member

    Messages:
    740
    Likes Received:
    139
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    That is not what it says. Try quoting the Scripture rather than just claiming that it says something but not providing the evidence.

    And yet Scripture says, Deuteronomy 6:4 (WEB):

    Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God. Yahweh is one.​

    Nonsense!
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2022
  8. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,289
    Likes Received:
    712
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Not 'the Spirit'.

    True, thanks. The Spirit of God who is that Spirit moved upon...Not a force of nature.

    I don't reject Scripture! I'm always referring to it.

    Wrongly, when you're not throwing them out altogether at will.

    If your "Christ the Lord God Almighty Bible"

    Is indeed mine and not your created christ's book, which indeed is not mine.

    and you mindlessly believe it all without question

    Which I read and questioned as a sinner long ago, which then proved itself true in every Scripture since then. There are not errors nor created christs in the Bible of Jesus Christ, except of course for the falsely created christs. I not only question, but openly condemn your book as false trash for the dumpster.

    So you don't believe Colossians 1:16 then? Speaking of Jesus, the Son of God, Paul says.

    I've already instructed you on it. You reject it as you wish. No problem.

    A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject.

    Again, why don't you provide Bible references for quotes?

    Not necessary from me nor you. I have a perfectly good computer to do a word search of Scripture. It only takes seconds. Try it for yourself. Also, many of them are well known, such as the one above I quoted for you.

    It's not talking about wisdom!

    I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

    Scripture does, which is why you don't. Wisdom is the subject of the Proverbs 30 and is identified as such, not the Word, nor the Son of God, nor Christ, which are not written in that Proverbs.

    Ye therefore do greatly err, because ye know not the scriptures. Neither do ye love them as written, so ye must change them or throw them out altogether.
     
  9. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,289
    Likes Received:
    712
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    It's not contrary to the Scriptures to search for the truth about God.

    When you end up with a created christ, you searched down the wrong road.

    That is not what it says. Try quoting the Scripture rather than just claiming that it says something but not providing the evidence.

    It's the sensical teaching of all Scriptures about God, the Word, and the Holy Ghost three being one, with the Word being the same God that was with God in the beginning to create the heaven and the earth.

    You reject this. No problem. Go to your created christ and commune in the force.

    Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God. Yahweh is one.

    Yahweh Schmahweh. I care not one bit for all this 'Hebraic' pretension.

    I'm glad I grew up reading a Bible without all those Brew-words.

    In the New Covenant and everlasting future, we have Jesus Christ. The Father. The Holy Ghost. The Lord. Almighty God. The Lamb. The Word. The LORD of LORDS and KING of KINGS.

    Don't read of any Yahweh wanna be Hebrew Yahoo. Nor of Jehovah, since He came down from heaven to dwell in the flesh and was called Jesus as a man, and Jesus Christ as the risen God of Israel.

    Is the reason you people try to pose as some sort of 'Hebrew', because you think you're some descendant of the 10 tribes that were destroyed utterly long ago?

    You're not, because their aren't any. There were never any lost tribes of Israel: they were completely wiped off the face of the earth. Destroyed, not lost. They lost their way completely with God, and they were completely destroyed for it, lest they should also destroy the rest of the children of Israel.

    Theyw ere destroyed for the same reason as them before the flood: to save them that still found grace with God from the evil of the rest.
     
  10. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,289
    Likes Received:
    712
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

    Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


    Them born of God are born of the Spirit of God, who is God.

    Them not born of the Spirit of God, are not born of God.

    Them born of the force are born of another god, which they spuriously call Jehovah, or Yahweh, or YWHY, or whatever other WAY of Hebraism they fancy most.
     
  11. keithr

    keithr Active Member

    Messages:
    740
    Likes Received:
    139
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    And the earth was already created at that point, and the water on it.

    Just because you interpret verses differently from me and others, that doesn't mean that I "throw out" verses. I'm just careful to seek out the true Scriptures and filter out the corruptions to it, and study to find the most likely correct translation into English. I want to learn the true word of God. After all, "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth” (John 4:24).

    I've no idea what you are referring to by "created christ's book". I read a variety of Scripture translations. Just because most of them delete spurious verses, or at least include a footnote stating that they are spurious and therefore should be ignored (and they are included only for reference), that does not make that translation a "created christ" book. It makes it a more honest and helpful translation. You're a fool if you insist on believing a proved corruption to the Bible, rather than wanting to find and believe the true word of God.

    You condemn many modern translations of the Bible?! Again, that is foolish. Look at the NIV footnotes on 1 John 5:7-8, for example. It says, "Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscripts before the sixteenth century)".

    It must be obvious that I have been, and have had to, search for the verses that you have quoted. But not specifying the Bible references is just being unhelpful and making it more difficult for those that read your contributions. Nobody in their right mind would believe a supposed quote if they can't check it for themselves, and check the context, etc.. But if they can't find it because they don't have the same translation on their computer as you have quoted from, then you have missed the opportunity to help them in their desire to learn more about the Scriptures. It is especially helpful on this forum to specify the reference because the reader can then just hover the cursor over the reference and it will display the ASV translation of the verse(s). Deliberately not specifying the reference is being awkward at best, but gives the impression that you may be deliberately trying to deceive. It's not a lot of effort to include the reference.

    I never mentioned Proverbs 30, I mentioned Proverbs 8:30. The KJV (your favourite translation?) says:

    8:30) Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;​

    How can wisdom be by (beside) the LORD, be brought up with the LORD, be a delight to the LORD and rejoice before the LORD?

    What translation is that? The KJV has:

    Matthew 22:29 - Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
    Mark 12:24 - And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

    I can't speak/read Hebrew and Greek, so I have to rely on English translations, as I guess you do. I take care to find the best translation of the Scriptures as they were written (not later corruptions of the Scriptures), to try and ensure I understand them as best as I can. The only verses I throw out are those spurious verses that have been proven to be corruptions, and 1 John 5:7-8 is probably the most well know spurious verse of them all. If you don't believe that then it is you that doesn't know the Scriptures!
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
  12. keithr

    keithr Active Member

    Messages:
    740
    Likes Received:
    139
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Again, why do you insist on implying that I believe in a created Christ?

    It's important to know God's name. Have you not read the following verses?:

    Romans 10:13-14
    (13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    (14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?​
    Verse 13 is quoting Joel 2:32
    (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
    (WEB) It will happen that whoever will call on Yahweh’s name shall be saved; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as Yahweh has said, and among the remnant, those whom Yahweh calls.​

    John 17:26 (WEB), Jesus said:
    (26) I made known to them your name, and will make it known; that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and I in them.”​

    You're wrong about that too, but I'm not going to go off on that tangent!
     
  13. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,696
    Likes Received:
    917
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    3 separate and distinct divine beings equates to 3 Gods.
     
  14. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,696
    Likes Received:
    917
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I can prove it.
     
  15. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,289
    Likes Received:
    712
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Again, why do you insist on implying that I believe in a created Christ?

    Whoa. You saying Christ was not created, but was God in the beginning?

    It's important to know God's name.

    It's important to know His name now: The God of Israel made His name Jehovah known to Moses, and He made His name known as Jesus when He was made flesh.

    You're wrong about that too, but I'm not going to go off on that tangent!

    Is it not the source for your pride in idolizing Jehovah as your God, rather than worshipping the Lord Jesus Christ as we worship the Father?

    Do you not think you are some descendent of the lost tribes of Israel that exist no more with God?

    And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight. (2 Kings 17)

    All the natural seed of that people was rejected by the LORD, and cast them out of His sight forever.

    There is no natural seed descendant of those people, that had anything to do with the LORD from that time forward, including today with the Lord Jesus Christ.

    The rest of the natural seed of Jacob were rejected for the Lord at the cross and cast from His sight, so that no natural seed of anyone on earth today has anything to do with the Lord Jesus Christ: No flesh is of any profit with Him pertaining to His promise to Abraham and salvation by faith of Abraham.

    It is not a tangent, but a mythical source for the ideology you cling to, made up by someone else about a hundred or so years ago.

    It's just as important to know why, as how someone is into false doctrine.
     
  16. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,289
    Likes Received:
    712
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    3 separate ones would yes, be three separate gods. Saying 3 separate gods is the unbelievers lie about the doctrine of These Three are One, so that they can remain in unbelief.

    Being carnal minded they reject the Three who created man in Their image, because they refuse to have the mind of Christ and acknowledge the Son as being the same and equal with the Father: Them who honor not the Son, even as they honor the Father, honor neither the Father nor the Son. We honor the Father as God, and we honor the Son as God, who was with God and was God, and is Being in the form and shape of God and is equal with God.

    And so, with the same carnal mindedness they play false in accusing the doctrine of God, the Word, and the Holy Ghost Being One, as being 3 separate gods.

    There is no correcting a people who have no normal integrity in a dispute.

    They want to say 3 separate gods, because they refuse to at least be honest about the expounding of These Three are One, not these three separate ones are gods.
     
  17. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,696
    Likes Received:
    917
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    It is impossible to say "3 persons, separate and distinct" without acknowledging them as 3 divine persons, or ....3 divinities(Gods).

    The RCC really blew that one when they invented it.
     
  18. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,289
    Likes Received:
    712
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

    The Word is Being in the form and shape of God, which no created being can be, and is equal with God, for which testimony the unbelievers slew Him on the cross.

    How can Being equal with God be exactly expressed?

    And the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    That is how.

    God's Scripture is perfect, and perfectly expresses the things of God and the Godhead of God, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: These Three are One, these Three are the same God with God and are God.

    The same was in the beginning with God.

    The same one God is with God and is God: The One God Being in the form and shape of God from everlasting made Himself Three Being God with God and Being God.

    One made Himself Three: no robbery of God, no loss to God.

    With man this is impossible, but with God is nothing impossible.

    And with carnal man, the possible of God is impossible to them, so they reject the truth of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

    The same One God made Himself Three in the beginning for creating the heaven and the earth, and the same Word
    made Himself of no reputation in obedience to the commandment of the same God and Father.

    God was never made anything by another, there is no other god than God, but only God making Himself Three in the beginning of creation to create man in Their image, and making Himself of no reputation in the beginning of salvation to redeem and conform man to His image.

    The Father did not make the Son of no reputation, but the Father commanded the Son, and the Son made Himself of no reputation.

     
  19. keithr

    keithr Active Member

    Messages:
    740
    Likes Received:
    139
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    No, Christ was never God in the beginning. He was the only-begotten son of God.

    I have no knowledge of the divine nature, but I suspect that it is not like God's physical animal creations, which are created in male and female forms and can produce offspring. Whether it's possible for God to give birth I don't know. I don't believe the angels can, and there is no suggestion in the Bible that resurrected Christians (given the divine nature) will be able to reproduce either. So whether God's only begotten Son was birthed or created I don't know. I do know that he obviously wasn't own his Father!

    No.

    No.
     
  20. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,696
    Likes Received:
    917
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    He was equal with God because he had not sinned and God was his biological Father.

    God is not equal with God.

    That makes no sense.

    If he was God it would have said it, or Jesus would have plainly said it.

    On the contrary, Jesus claimed to have a God.

    Divinity does not produce divine infants.
     
Loading...