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Is Jesus God Incarnate?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Soul, Aug 4, 2021.

  1. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    That's kind of confusing. Jesus did claim to be God (John 8:56-59), and He also was God even while in the flesh, one of His titles being "Emmanuel" per Matthew 1:23, which means 'God with us'. And the actual idea Apostle John applied to antichrists is they don't believe 'Christ' came in the flesh. That title of 'Christ' with Jesus Christ is of Heavenly origin about God.

    John 4:24 reveals that God is "a Spirit". So just because Lord Jesus was born into a flesh womb by The Holy Spirit, that didn't mean His Spirit inside His flesh changed.
     
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  2. keithr

    keithr Active Member

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    Jesus was not claiming to be God in those verses. If you think that then that explains why you are confused! Jesus claimed to be the light of the world (John 8:12) and the son of God (John 8:16,18,19,28,29,38,42,54), saying that his Father sent him (John 8:16) and that he was sent by God (John 8:42), confirming that his Father, and the Father, is referring to God. He never claimed to be God but clearly said he was a separate person from God - John 8:16-19, John 8:28-29,42 and John 8:54 (WEB):

    (54) Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is our God.​

    Don't be fooled/deceived by the words "I am", thinking that was God's name (it isn't) in verse 58. Jesus saying "I am", or "I have existed" is not why the Jews picked up stones intending to throw at Jesus. If it was then why didn't they do that earlier when Jesus spoke the same words - John 8:18,23,24,28.

    Christ, or Messiah, means 'anointed'. God anointed His son to be the saviour and king of all mankind. It's not referring to God - God hasn't anointed Himself and given Himself that role, He gave it to His beloved only-begotten Son. (God will eventually be King over His Kingdom forever, but He doesn't need to anoint Himself to that position.)

    Indeed. But it was Jesus, God's son, who was made flesh, NOT God changing Himself into flesh. God never changes - Malachi 3:6 (WEB):

    (6) “For I, Yahweh, don’t change; therefore you, sons of Jacob, are not consumed.​

    where the word translated "change" is shanah, of which Strong's says:

    08138. שׁנה‎ shanah [shaw-naw’;] a primitive root; to fold, i.e. duplicate (literally or figuratively); by implication, to transmute (transitive or intransitive): — do (speak, strike) again, alter, double, (be given to) change, disguise, (be) diverse, pervert, prefer, repeat, return, do the second time.​
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2022
  3. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am.


    This was God speaking THROUGH Jesus, not AS Jesus.

    God was "with us" per this....


    10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
     
  4. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    When Jesus said, "I AM", He called HIMSELF GOD. That's important to understand.

    When Jesus said He and The Father are One, Jesus was calling Himself as GOD. He certainly did not... mean that in some eastern Asian religious sense like being 'one with the Cosmic' either.
     
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  5. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    Look again....

    10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works....

    24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's .....


    Now, was God speaking THROUGH Jesus or not?
     
  6. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    YOU... need to look again...

    John 8:56-59
    56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad."
    57 Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"
    58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

    59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
    KJV


    The reason those unbelieving Jews took up stones against Jesus there was because Jesus called Himself God by that sacred name, The "I AM" (from Old Testament 'I AM THAT I AM' when Moses asked God who to say that sent him.)

    So if those unbelieving Jews recognized that Lord Jesus was claiming to be God there in that John 8 example, but you don't, where does that make your ability to understand God's written Word? Kind of looks like His Word is closed off to you.
     
  7. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    So, are you saying that the Father did not, nor could not speak THROUGH the son, per John 14?

    So this.....the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's...

    Kinda should mean this.....the word which ye hear IS mine, AND NOT the Father's...?
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2022
  8. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Jesus said to Thomas...

    John 14:7
    7 If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.

    KJV

    John 14:9
    9 Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father?'"

    KJV

    All those verses in that John 14 where Lord Jesus is proclaiming Himself as The Father, and you opt to pick a verse that your flesh thinks presents doubt as to Who Jesus is...

    John 14:10
    10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the Father That dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works.
    KJV


    What 'part' in Jesus exactly do you think represents The Father in Jesus doing the works? And remember that Hebrews 1:1-3 reveals that Jesus is the "express image of His person", meaning the express Image of The Father. (and since the ASV is kind of confusing, here is the KJV for Hebrews 1:1-3...

    Heb 1:1-3
    1 God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds;

    3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    KJV
     
  9. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    What you are doing is struggling to understand about The Godhead being made up of 3 Persons as One, God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit.

    You will never begin to understand that as long as you allow your fleshy thinking to get in the way. Lord Jesus existed eternally co-equal with The Father prior... to His being born through a flesh womb of woman. Just how... did Jesus do that without a flesh body? It is because like Apostle John said, "God is a Spirit". And Hebrews said Jesus is the express Image of The Father. Likewise Jesus before being born in the flesh manifested like The Father, as a Spirit. He appeared on earth with the image of man in Old Testament times as the Angel of The Lord (Angel meaning Messenger status, not meaning Jesus was an angel like some deluded souls believe).

    The matter has to do with two totally separate and distinct dimensions of existence, which means we have to put our fleshy thinking on hold to get even a hint of understanding what that means per the Heavenly order of things.

    So when Matthew 1:23 declared one of Jesus' titles of "Emmanuel" which means, God with us, it means that part of The Godhead came to earth through a flesh body known as Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ.
     
  10. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying the son is the Father or the Father dwells inside the son, representing the invisible Father from inside the visible son?

    My son is the image of me, but is not me.

    Did God make the worlds as the son or via the son?

    Was the son slain from the foundation of the world per Rev 13:8 or not?

    Did the human, begotten son preexist in the mind of God or not?

    Does God transcend time or not?

    Was God speaking to the man Christ Jesus in the present tense per Psalm 2 or not?

    Was Jesus portraying his death on the cross in the present tense per Psalm 22 or not?
     
  11. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    No, what I am doing is giving Jesus back his scriptural identity as an individual of a human with a God, which 4th century heretics stripped away from him with extra Biblical commentary.

    Christianity hates the dozens of verses regarding Jesus' admission of being a man with a God.

    Like this for example...

    And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.


    ...which troubles you at the very glance of it because of your religious indoctrination.
     
  12. keithr

    keithr Active Member

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    Quite clearly verse 10 says that the Father (God) dwelled in Jesus, not that Jesus was the Father. As I quoted above in reply #502, in John 8:54 Jesus says, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is our God". Why does "your flesh" think that Jesus was proclaiming himself as the Father? In this chapter Jesus says that his Father, who is God (for God is NOT made up of three separate parts), dwelled in him and glorified him; he said (verse 1) "Believe in God. Believe also in me", NOT 'believe that I am God'; “No one comes to the Father, except through me" (verse 6) - clearly Jesus is not the Father otherwise we would not need to come to the Father through Jesus; in verses 7 & 8:
    (7) If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you know him, and have seen him.”
    (8) Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.”​
    why would Philip say "show us the Father" if he thought that Jesus' words meant that Jesus was declaring himslef to be the Father? ; (verse 10) "Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works", clearly Jesus is distinguishing himself from his Father; he said (verse 12), "Most certainly I tell you, he who believes in me, the works that I do, he will do also; and he will do greater works than these, because I am going to my Father" - how can he be proclaiming himself as the Father and at the same time saying that he was going to his Father?

    In verse 23 Jesus says, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him". Again Jesus distinguishes between himself and his Father (God). He says that God will dwell in us - does that make us God (the Father)? It no more makes us God than it made Jesus God (the Father).

    All those verses in John 14 (and there are more verses) where Jesus is clearly not proclaiming himself as the Father, and yet you opt to believe the lie that Jesus is God, and his own father, and therefore you pretend that Jesus words somehow mean that he is claiming to be the Father - you should study the Scriptures without the bias of wearing Trinity coloured spectacles, and honestly seek to learn the truth.

    How can Jesus be the Father (God) and at the same time sit down at the right hand of the Father (God)?
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022 at 9:19 AM
  13. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    Okay.

    Now that you understand how Jesus was not God, but the son of God....

    ...you now need to understand how Jesus was MADE God after his God raised him from the dead.

    This is called "the Col 2:9 effect".

    After his God raised him from the dead, his God made him a omnipresent human spirit and entered(fully indwelled Jesus with every bit of Himself, bodily) his human spirit completely.

    Now, this made Jesus an omnipresent quickening spirit...AKA, God.

    Now, God, "God's us" through Jesus.

    Thomas was the first to get the revelation of how Jesus was made his God after he resurrected.
     
  14. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    The remade, omnipresent human spirit body of Jesus contains every bit of his God.

    This allows Jesus, today, to be an individual human with a God, and be our God by default.(Rev 3:12)
     
  15. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    Notice Isaiah 9:6 in this new light...

    6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:....present tense.

    and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace....after he resurrected.
     
  16. Cooper

    Cooper Well-Known Member

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    Jesus the man is the creator made visible, by the flesh.

    The Son is the Father with us on earth billions of years later.
     
  17. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    I thought the Father created the world per Gen 1?

    Now you say He did not?
     
  18. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    If the son is the Father (of the son), then the son impregnated his mother.
     
  19. Cooper

    Cooper Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is the creator made visible.
     
  20. Cooper

    Cooper Well-Known Member

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    When we look at a newborn baby we are seeing something that existed years before, but is now made visible in the flesh.
    .
     
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