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Is Jesus Really God?

Discussion in 'NonChristian Help Forum' started by belief_in_one, Nov 9, 2007.

  1. belief_in_one

    belief_in_one New Member

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    Peace be upon you my Christian brothers and sisters!May the One Supreme God bless you for taking the time to answer the Q's of us non-Christians. I pray that through our exchange of ideas, we will both benefit in learning more about each other.I'm part Irish and part Iranian; what a mix huh? Anyway, this means that part of my family are Christian and I'm familiar with many of the doctrines and teachings of Christianity. Of course, as a self-professed Muslim after much research, I am still interested in becoming enlightened by such passionate believers in God, in the day of of judgement and the afterlife, doing good and forbidding wrong, respect of parents and elders, paying the poor due, fasting, and spending nights in worship.My main concern, however, is that certain beliefs in Christianity, and I say "Christianity" because I see it as a religion created by Paul and not Jesus himself. Therefore me long with most Muslims see Christianity as a movement created by Paul wihich goes against the fundamental teachings of our Messiah Jesus (peace be upon him). With that said, I want to discuss the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus, InshAllah (God Willing)In the Gospel according to John 1:1 it says: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."I'm sure we all agree that a Holy Scripture should not contain contradictions. Therefore, if there are two conflicting verses, then only one can be true; both can never be true or both wrong.Thus, if Jesus is God, isn't this in contradiction with many passages of the Bible? For example, in Deut. 4:39: "...that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else"; Deut. 6:4: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord"; Isaiah 44:6: "Thus saith the Lord...I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God".In the NT, in Mark 12:29 Jesus said: "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord."In I Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Pay attention to the expression "the man Christ Jesus." Now you can either say that John 1:1 is right and all these other verses are wrong, or the reverse.From the Qur'anic point of view, this corresponds with what Jesus himself said in the Bible. Jesus is mentioned several times in the Qur'an as a Word from Allah. In Surah 3:39: "Then the angels called to him (Zacharias) while he was standing in prayer in the chamber (saying): Allah gives you glad tidings of John [i.e. the Baptist] believing in a Word from Allah [i.e. Jesus, son of Mary], noble, keeping away from sexual relations with women, a prophet, and one of the righteous."In the same Surah 3, again mentioned in verse 45: "[Remember] when the angels said: "O Mary! Verily Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word from Him, his name will be Isa al-Maseeh [Jesus the Messiah], the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter, and of those who are near to Allah." In both verses of the Qur'an Jesus is referred to as a "Word from Allah", i.e. a word coming from Allah or belonging to Allah, in correspondence with I Cor. 3:23: "And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's." John 1:1 should also have been written: "...and the Word was God's," and not "the Word was God." This mistake, in my opinion, could have been in the translation from Aramaic to Greek, deliberately or not. In the Greek language "Theos" is God, but "Theou" means God's--a difference of only one letter but with big consequences.The creation of Jesus in the womb of Mary was without the agency of a sperm, just only with the decree of Allah: "Be," as mentioned in the same Surah 3:47: "She [Mary] said: 'O, my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.' He said: 'So [it will be], for Allah created what He will. When He has decreed something, He says to it only "Be" and it is.'"
     
  2. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (belief_in_one;22024)
    Peace be upon you my Christian brothers and sisters!May the One Supreme God bless you for taking the time to answer the Q's of us non-Christians. I pray that through our exchange of ideas, we will both benefit in learning more about each other.I'm part Irish and part Iranian; what a mix huh? Anyway, this means that part of my family are Christian and I'm familiar with many of the doctrines and teachings of Christianity. Of course, as a self-professed Muslim after much research, I am still interested in becoming enlightened by such passionate believers in God, in the day of of judgement and the afterlife, doing good and forbidding wrong, respect of parents and elders, paying the poor due, fasting, and spending nights in worship.My main concern, however, is that certain beliefs in Christianity, and I say "Christianity" because I see it as a religion created by Paul and not Jesus himself. Therefore me long with most Muslims see Christianity as a movement created by Paul wihich goes against the fundamental teachings of our Messiah Jesus (peace be upon him). With that said, I want to discuss the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus, InshAllah (God Willing)In the Gospel according to John 1:1 it says: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."I'm sure we all agree that a Holy Scripture should not contain contradictions. Therefore, if there are two conflicting verses, then only one can be true; both can never be true or both wrong.Thus, if Jesus is God, isn't this in contradiction with many passages of the Bible? For example, in Deut. 4:39: "...that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else"; Deut. 6:4: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord"; Isaiah 44:6: "Thus saith the Lord...I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God".In the NT, in Mark 12:29 Jesus said: "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord."In I Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Pay attention to the expression "the man Christ Jesus." Now you can either say that John 1:1 is right and all these other verses are wrong, or the reverse.From the Qur'anic point of view, this corresponds with what Jesus himself said in the Bible. Jesus is mentioned several times in the Qur'an as a Word from Allah. In Surah 3:39: "Then the angels called to him (Zacharias) while he was standing in prayer in the chamber (saying): Allah gives you glad tidings of John [i.e. the Baptist] believing in a Word from Allah [i.e. Jesus, son of Mary], noble, keeping away from sexual relations with women, a prophet, and one of the righteous."In the same Surah 3, again mentioned in verse 45: "[Remember] when the angels said: "O Mary! Verily Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word from Him, his name will be Isa al-Maseeh [Jesus the Messiah], the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter, and of those who are near to Allah." In both verses of the Qur'an Jesus is referred to as a "Word from Allah", i.e. a word coming from Allah or belonging to Allah, in correspondence with I Cor. 3:23: "And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's." John 1:1 should also have been written: "...and the Word was God's," and not "the Word was God." This mistake, in my opinion, could have been in the translation from Aramaic to Greek, deliberately or not. In the Greek language "Theos" is God, but "Theou" means God's--a difference of only one letter but with big consequences.The creation of Jesus in the womb of Mary was without the agency of a sperm, just only with the decree of Allah: "Be," as mentioned in the same Surah 3:47: "She [Mary] said: 'O, my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.' He said: 'So [it will be], for Allah created what He will. When He has decreed something, He says to it only "Be" and it is.'"
    Dear belief_in_oneChristianity was not made by Paul, nor did James created Christianity. For both are disciples of Lord Jesus Christ. It existed way before Islam did. Christianity has the roots of Judaism.Concerning if Jesus was God, yes He is God for numerous reasons. Not only did the NT (New Testament) said that, but also the OT (Old Testament) said that.First off, I am well aware that Muslims believe that Jesus was born of a virgin Mary.Isaiah 7:14 - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (which interpreted God with us) It is fulfilled in Matthew 1:23Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Genesis 22:8 - And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. Fulfilled in John 1:29Then we got here is.John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.Acts 13:33 - God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. (Psalm 2:7)Vs.Qu'ran 2:116 - They say: "Allah hath begotten a son" :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him. (Also Quran 10:68, 18:4, 19:88 etc)Quran 5:17 - In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Philippians 2:8 - And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.VsQuran 4:157 - That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- What did the bible say about it?Mark 15:9-14 - But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews? For he knew that the chief priests had delivered him for envy. But the chief priests moved the people, that he should rather release Barabbas unto them. And Pilate answered and said again unto them, What will ye then that I shall do unto him whom ye call the King of the Jews? And they cried out again, Crucify him. Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify him.So what we have here is two different sides here. They both can't be correct belief_in_one.
     
  3. cooolway

    cooolway New Member

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    This is the same reason why Thomas Jefferson and Isaac Newton did not believe in trinity.
     
  4. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Whether Thomas Jefferson and Isaac Newton believed in the Godhead or not. There is no contradiction at all in the bible. for the Godhead is not 3 gods, but 1 God. Whether man understand it or not.For God did indeed come into the flesh. (John 1:1, John 1:14, I Timothy 3:16)Matthew 16:17 - And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.John 14:9 - Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?JagOn another note.The only thing the Qu'ran got it right is...for Christ is not Allah. For Christ can not murder innocent people.For my God wants to save every single soul.II Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
     
  5. FreeThought

    FreeThought New Member

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    I doubt that an Omnipotent, Omnipresent & Transcendent Supreme Being would have to appear on Earth in the form of a poor, idealist, socialist Jew 2000 yrs ago. I just dont see any reason for an All-Powerful Being to waste his time on redeeming the sins of man in such a time-consuming and inefficient way.
     
  6. Mighty Bear

    Mighty Bear New Member

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    (belief_in_one;22024)
    Peace be upon you my Christian brothers and sisters!May the One Supreme God bless you for taking the time to answer the Q's of us non-Christians. I pray that through our exchange of ideas, we will both benefit in learning more about each other.I'm part Irish and part Iranian; what a mix huh? Anyway, this means that part of my family are Christian and I'm familiar with many of the doctrines and teachings of Christianity. Of course, as a self-professed Muslim after much research, I am still interested in becoming enlightened by such passionate believers in God, in the day of of judgement and the afterlife, doing good and forbidding wrong, respect of parents and elders, paying the poor due, fasting, and spending nights in worship.My main concern, however, is that certain beliefs in Christianity, and I say "Christianity" because I see it as a religion created by Paul and not Jesus himself. Therefore me long with most Muslims see Christianity as a movement created by Paul wihich goes against the fundamental teachings of our Messiah Jesus (peace be upon him). With that said, I want to discuss the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus, InshAllah (God Willing)In the Gospel according to John 1:1 it says: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."I'm sure we all agree that a Holy Scripture should not contain contradictions. Therefore, if there are two conflicting verses, then only one can be true; both can never be true or both wrong.Thus, if Jesus is God, isn't this in contradiction with many passages of the Bible? For example, in Deut. 4:39: "...that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else"; Deut. 6:4: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord"; Isaiah 44:6: "Thus saith the Lord...I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God".In the NT, in Mark 12:29 Jesus said: "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord."In I Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Pay attention to the expression "the man Christ Jesus." Now you can either say that John 1:1 is right and all these other verses are wrong, or the reverse.From the Qur'anic point of view, this corresponds with what Jesus himself said in the Bible. Jesus is mentioned several times in the Qur'an as a Word from Allah. In Surah 3:39: "Then the angels called to him (Zacharias) while he was standing in prayer in the chamber (saying): Allah gives you glad tidings of John [i.e. the Baptist] believing in a Word from Allah [i.e. Jesus, son of Mary], noble, keeping away from sexual relations with women, a prophet, and one of the righteous."In the same Surah 3, again mentioned in verse 45: "[Remember] when the angels said: "O Mary! Verily Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word from Him, his name will be Isa al-Maseeh [Jesus the Messiah], the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter, and of those who are near to Allah." In both verses of the Qur'an Jesus is referred to as a "Word from Allah", i.e. a word coming from Allah or belonging to Allah, in correspondence with I Cor. 3:23: "And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's." John 1:1 should also have been written: "...and the Word was God's," and not "the Word was God." This mistake, in my opinion, could have been in the translation from Aramaic to Greek, deliberately or not. In the Greek language "Theos" is God, but "Theou" means God's--a difference of only one letter but with big consequences.The creation of Jesus in the womb of Mary was without the agency of a sperm, just only with the decree of Allah: "Be," as mentioned in the same Surah 3:47: "She [Mary] said: 'O, my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.' He said: 'So [it will be], for Allah created what He will. When He has decreed something, He says to it only "Be" and it is.'"
    Our Father is Holy, therefore anyone who is holyis a son of God. Jesus being only the first bornand eldest. Jesus is our brother and he is Holy,He existed with God in the beginning before theearth was formed. Without our Lord Jesus, we wouldnot exist, He is the reason why our Father createdthe universe."He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,"(Hebrews 1:3)"And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,'Let all God's angels worship him.' " (Hebrews 1:6)"For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers," (Hebrews 2:11)"All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made."(John 1:3)"yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."(1 Corinthians 8:6)"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given;and the government shall be upon his shoulder,and his name shall be calledWonderful Counselor, Mighty God,Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."(Isaiah 9:6)Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)"The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,"(Romans 8:16)Church of Love in Jesus Christhttp://christiansite.multiply.com/journal
     
  7. Peacebewithyou

    Peacebewithyou New Member

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    (FreeThought;22668)
    I doubt that an Omnipotent, Omnipresent & Transcendent Supreme Being would have to appear on Earth in the form of a poor, idealist, socialist Jew 2000 yrs ago. I just dont see any reason for an All-Powerful Being to waste his time on redeeming the sins of man in such a time-consuming and inefficient way.
    Ineffecient? Are you kidding me? Do you think that the 2.1 BILLION people living today who identify themselves as "Christian" know the name of any other "poor, idealist, socialist Jew" who lived 2,000 years ago? And it's only truly inefficient if the redeeming didn't work. It worked. Plus, because Jesus lived the life of a man, He can totally relate to our struggles as humans. He experienced pain, loss, sorrow, isolation, rejection, betrayal etc.
     
  8. Mighty Bear

    Mighty Bear New Member

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    (FreeThought;22668)
    I doubt that an Omnipotent, Omnipresent & Transcendent Supreme Being would have to appear on Earth in the form of a poor, idealist, socialist Jew 2000 yrs ago. I just dont see any reason for an All-Powerful Being to waste his time on redeeming the sins of man in such a time-consuming and inefficient way.
    If you're happy be happy, but if you're not,have a second thought."Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline,"(Revelation 3:19)
     
  9. bruv

    bruv New Member

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    Found this quote interesting..("Isaiah 42:1-8")
    Here is my servant whom I uphold, my chosen one with whom I am pleased, Upon whom I have put my spirit; he shall bring forth justice to the nations, Not crying out, not shouting, not making his voice heard in the street. A bruised reed he shall not break, and a smoldering wick he shall not quench, Until he establishes justice on the earth; the coastlands will wait for his teaching. Thus says God, the LORD, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spreads out the earth with its crops, Who gives breath to its people and spirit to those who walk on it: To open the eyes of the blind, to bring out prisoners from confinement, and from the dungeon, those who live in darkness. I am the LORD, this is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to idols.
     
  10. FreeThought

    FreeThought New Member

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    (Peacebewithyou;22678)
    Ineffecient? Are you kidding me? Do you think that the 2.1 BILLION people living today who identify themselves as "Christian" know the name of any other "poor, idealist, socialist Jew" who lived 2,000 years ago? And it's only truly inefficient if the redeeming didn't work. It worked. Plus, because Jesus lived the life of a man, He can totally relate to our struggles as humans. He experienced pain, loss, sorrow, isolation, rejection, betrayal etc.
    2.1 Billion christians sounds good... until you realize that the world has over 6.6 billion people. But hey, less then 1 out of 3 aint bad when it comes to eternal salvation is it??[​IMG] And the fact that it took 2000 yrs just proves my time-consuming point too. And lets also not forget HOW Jesus' word has been perverted and spread throughout history. Mainly crusades, imperialism and violence with a very small amount of genuine preaching here and there.
     
  11. Faithful

    Faithful New Member

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    (belief_in_one;22024)
    Peace be upon you my Christian brothers and sisters!May the One Supreme God bless you for taking the time to answer the Q's of us non-Christians. I pray that through our exchange of ideas, we will both benefit in learning more about each other.I'm part Irish and part Iranian; what a mix huh? Anyway, this means that part of my family are Christian and I'm familiar with many of the doctrines and teachings of Christianity. Of course, as a self-professed Muslim after much research, I am still interested in becoming enlightened by such passionate believers in God, in the day of of judgement and the afterlife, doing good and forbidding wrong, respect of parents and elders, paying the poor due, fasting, and spending nights in worship.My main concern, however, is that certain beliefs in Christianity, and I say "Christianity" because I see it as a religion created by Paul and not Jesus himself. Therefore me long with most Muslims see Christianity as a movement created by Paul wihich goes against the fundamental teachings of our Messiah Jesus (peace be upon him). With that said, I want to discuss the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus, InshAllah (God Willing)In the Gospel according to John 1:1 it says: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."I'm sure we all agree that a Holy Scripture should not contain contradictions. Therefore, if there are two conflicting verses, then only one can be true; both can never be true or both wrong.Thus, if Jesus is God, isn't this in contradiction with many passages of the Bible? For example, in Deut. 4:39: "...that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else"; Deut. 6:4: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord"; Isaiah 44:6: "Thus saith the Lord...I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God".In the NT, in Mark 12:29 Jesus said: "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord."In I Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Pay attention to the expression "the man Christ Jesus." Now you can either say that John 1:1 is right and all these other verses are wrong, or the reverse.From the Qur'anic point of view, this corresponds with what Jesus himself said in the Bible. Jesus is mentioned several times in the Qur'an as a Word from Allah. In Surah 3:39: "Then the angels called to him (Zacharias) while he was standing in prayer in the chamber (saying): Allah gives you glad tidings of John [i.e. the Baptist] believing in a Word from Allah [i.e. Jesus, son of Mary], noble, keeping away from sexual relations with women, a prophet, and one of the righteous."In the same Surah 3, again mentioned in verse 45: "[Remember] when the angels said: "O Mary! Verily Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word from Him, his name will be Isa al-Maseeh [Jesus the Messiah], the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter, and of those who are near to Allah." In both verses of the Qur'an Jesus is referred to as a "Word from Allah", i.e. a word coming from Allah or belonging to Allah, in correspondence with I Cor. 3:23: "And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's." John 1:1 should also have been written: "...and the Word was God's," and not "the Word was God." This mistake, in my opinion, could have been in the translation from Aramaic to Greek, deliberately or not. In the Greek language "Theos" is God, but "Theou" means God's--a difference of only one letter but with big consequences.The creation of Jesus in the womb of Mary was without the agency of a sperm, just only with the decree of Allah: "Be," as mentioned in the same Surah 3:47: "She [Mary] said: 'O, my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.' He said: 'So [it will be], for Allah created what He will. When He has decreed something, He says to it only "Be" and it is.'"
    Genesis 1:1-3.1.In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2.And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.John 1:14 (King James Version)14.And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.1 John 5:7 (King James Version) 7.For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.All there at the beginning and today they are all in heaven, the word was made flesh. What happens when God speaks? How can the Word be made flesh. Jesus says, " Before Abraham, I am."I will raise them up a prophet from amongst their own brethren and shall put my words in his mouth, and whoever will not hearken unto the words he shall speak in my name, I will expect it of him. Deuteronomy 18:15-18.How was the word made flesh? How was the word God? Jesus said, John 17:3 (King James Version) 3.And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.What is clear is that if you do not have Christ then you do not have God.How can this be? Why ask about the things that make no difference to eternal life? Why do people pretend to know how they are all one yet three different persons?Jesus says, John 17:21-23.21.That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22.And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23.I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. We are all one with God and our Lord Jesus Christ. But we are not God or Jesus but made one with them as they are one with each other.I believe Christ explains everything that the apostles were teaching here.Love Faithful.[​IMG]
     
  12. cooolway

    cooolway New Member

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    Jehovah witness and Mormons don't believe in trinity either.
     
  13. Sara

    Sara New Member

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    John 3:16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his ONLY BEGOTTEN SON that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life."
     
  14. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    Hi belief_in_one,You will find verses in referencing God as One God, but Three Persons in One. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Below are the verses regarding the creation of man. Note the pronouns as the scriptures goes from our image to his image as God was addressing himself as us as in "Let us...."Genesis 1: 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. So we can see here how the scriptures can remain uncorrupted because they refer to God being One and yet Three Persons as God the Father was referring with His Son in creation as us.And since only God can save, we find the same references to God being the Saviour and Jesus being the Saviour.Titus 1: 3But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; 4To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.Titus 2: 10Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. 11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.If you read on in John, you can see the relation as God being the Son as God came into the world as the Light to the world.John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. And to adopt us to live with God, we have been given the Holy Spirit as the seal of adoption since we have been bought with a price by the Son of God Whom paid the penalty for our sins which was death so that we can live with God in holiness through the righteousness of Jesus Christ... which is the glory of God as Saviour and why we would thank Him and praise Him.John 14: 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.... 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 15If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you....18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him....23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 29And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. This verse about the "Father being geater than I" is in regards to Jesus being God the Son as God is the Father... to believe that they are one... just as they are one with God the Holy Spirit since they all join in to make our abode in us in that we shall be received into the Kingdom of God to live with God... thanks be to Jesus Christ as God Our Saviour.1 Peter 1: 20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:Galatians 1:1Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead [​IMG] 2And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: 3Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,Romans 10: 8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.Ephesians 2: 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.1 John 3: 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.Jude 1: 24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.Philippians 2: 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Thus if Jesus Christ is glorified with God the Father, He cannot be just a man.1 Corinthians 1: 29That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.So the only Way back to living with God is through God the Saviour. He is Our Creator, only He can redeem us. Only God can save us and redeem us to live with Him through His righteousness to be partakers of His holiness.Even those that get left behind at the rapture event as judgment must fall on the House of God first, Jesus shall finish His work in them for He shall lose nothing albeit they shall lose out of the marriage supper of the Bridegroom and the Bride. But like the foolish virgins that turn to religious works that deny Him, voiding faith in Him as being able or/and the prodigal son that squandered their inheritance in wild living, hence a sinful life in reaping corruption, in which both shall have weeping and gnashing of teeth when left behind.. their loss will be so great the Jesus will have to wipe the tears from their eyes to get them past their loss... but being left behind is to chasten every child that is to be received.Hebrews 12: 9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.And Jesus has to be God as well in order not to lose one.John 6: 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.Thus those wayward believers that get left behind at the coming judgment on the House of God ,because they did not hear His voice by heeding His sayings and building on that faith in their relationship with God, the Lord Jesus Christ, Their Good Shepherd, but when He does come for them again, then they will hear His voice.John 10: 1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber....3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers...7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Scriptures declares that Jesus is God the Son as there is God the Father, and because of the Holy Spirit in those wayward believers to seal them as His, the Holy Spirit is God also.1 Corinthians 3: 10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. ....13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 18Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.... 21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; 22Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 23And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.May the Lord cause the increase for you to understand the scriptures so that you may be able to receive the joy of God's plan of salvation through Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
     
  15. cooolway

    cooolway New Member

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    Muslims believe that people changed the Bible. John was a good man"Then the angels called him, while he was standing in prayer in Al-Mihrab (a praying place or a private room), (saying): "Allah gives you glad tidings of Yahya (John), confirming (believing in) the Word from Allah [i.e. the creation of 'Iesa (Jesus) , the Word from Allah ("Be!" - and he was!)], noble, keeping away from sexual relations with women, a Prophet, from among the righteous." 3:39 "And (made him) sympathetic to men as a mercy (or a grant) from Us, and pure from sins [i.e. Yahya (John)] and he was righteous," 19:13Yahya (John the Baptist) was the son of Prophet Zakariyya (peace be upon him). His birth was a miracle because. He was born of a barren mother and an aged father. In the fagging part of life Prophet Zakariya (peace be upon him) prayed to Allah to bless him with a son who could prove to be a successful heir and preacher of the religion of Allah. His prayer was promptly granted. The Holy Quran says:"0' Zakariya! Lo! We bring you a glad tidings of a son whose name is Yahya. We have given the same name to none before him.'' (Surah 19: Verse 7)The Prophet Yahya (peace be upon him) was dedicated to the noble work of leading men to the path of salvation. He exhorted his people to have unstinted faith in God. He moved among the humble and despised sofe raiment. He was not arrogant. He spent most of his life in wilderness. He was pure and devout. He was dutiful towards his parents. The Holy Quran says:"(And it was said unto his son) 0' John! Hold fast the scripture. And We gave him wisdom when he was a child! And compassion from Our presence and punity, and he was devout. And dutiful towards his parents. And he was not arrogant, rebellious. Peace on him the day he was born and the day he dies and the day he shall be raised alive.'' (Surah 19: Verse 12-15 )The Prophet Yahya (peace be upon him) moved to the desert of Judea. He dressed himself in a robe made of camel hair. He ate simple food and wild honey. His sermons were most impressive and people flocked to hear his trumpet message. The whole of the Jordan valley was baptized due to his preaching. The Prophet Yahya (peace be upon him) was the precursor of Prophet Isa (Jesus Christ). He was his cousin and contemporary as well. His fidelity to his mission as a preacher soon deprived him of his liberty and subsequently his life.The Roman Ruler Herod Antipas was the ruler of Galilee. He had an adulterous relations with Herodias, the wife of his brother Herod Philip. The Prophet Yahya (peace be upon him) reproached him for this grave sin. Herod Antipas got annoyed and imprisoned him till his execution. Once Herod Antipas arranged a grand feast. Herodias allowed her daughter, Salome to dance. The Ruler was fascinated with the performance of the dancing girl. He declared that he would grant whatever Salome wanted. She immediately made a demand for the head of Prophet Yahya (peace be upon him). Herod was in a fix what to do. He had no alternative to adhere to his words. So Prophet Yahya (peace be upon him) was beheaded at the instigation of the mother of that girl with whom Herod was infatuated. His grave is in Umayyah Mosque in Syria.
     
  16. Peacebewithyou

    Peacebewithyou New Member

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    (cooolway;23039)
    Jehovah witness and Mormons don't believe in trinity either.
    True - Both are religions founded by mentally disturbed men who were authorities on nothing. Because they reject the Divinity of Christ, both groups are not considered Chrisitian, depsite whatever lables they attach to themselves.
     
  17. Dunamite

    Dunamite New Member

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    Simplicity appeals to many people. They like the idea of an uncomplicated God and black and white rules. Islam and Judaism will always appeal to these people.God revealed himself in the way that he did because of our limitations, not his. He gave us the law because we needed to know that we were incapable of being good without his help. It was a necessary step in our development.God knew this when he gave the law. Why would God do something if he knew it was doomed to failure? He did it because we needed this step for us to go through.When God created us, he made us out of love. He wanted a being who was like his essence, to fellowship with. He wanted us to return his love of our own free will. He knew the consequences of giving us a free will would be disobedience, yet he did it anyway. He did it because the payoff was worth the cost. He knew that in the end that we would turn back to him and love him of our own free will. Love freely given is the only true love.We have God's nature. We were created in his image. We need love as much as we need food and water. Love is what keeps us going in times of duress. Prisoners of war can be deprived of food and water and suffer greatly, only if they are able to look forward to being reunited with those they love. Without this hope, they quickly die.In the beginning, Adam and Eve and God had a special relationship. It says in Genesis 3, that God walked and talked with Adam and Even in the garden in the cool of the day. This is the relationship that God wants for each one of us.God knew that we would sever that tie and lose our way, so he planned for it from the beginning. That is why we have the Son and the Holy Spirit. They are part of God's being. They were and are always there. John Calvin explained the Trinity, a concept that is not mentioned by name in the Bible this way. He said that the Father is God; the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. But that the Father is not the Son; the Son is not the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Together they form a unity and separate they are able to work differently.The Son is God in human form. To understand the significance of this you need to know who God is. He exists outside of time and space. In order to do the work of reconciling us to him, he chose to enter into his own created universe, to become subject to time and space and to take on the form of those he was trying to reveal himself to.Since the fall of mankind, he had always tried to communicate to us. He revealed himself to people and opened channels of communication between the spiritual and temporal realms with limited success. God is unlimited, but we aren't. We are finite in both our life spans and our ability to see into the spiritual realm. We see and interpret things differently. We see things linearly, but God doesn't. Due to our limitations we could not bridge the gap, only God could do it. As time passed people became increasingly separated from him. The numbers of unbelievers were increasing exponentially. Sin was consuming God's creation and would eventually destroy it. God knew this from the outset, but had to wait to the right time and set the stage for his entry into his world.Jesus had the Holy Spirit in him from birth. He was fully God because he had God's spiritual nature, but he was flesh and blood. There is no doubt that Jesus listened to God from the beginning. How this worked is a mystery to us and we can only guess. My feeling is that it worked like this. God the Father has a bird's eye view of creation. He sees our world in the way that a we would if we watched a parade from above. From this perspective we would see the parade from beginning to end. We could look at the last band before the first on, should we desire to do so. A person watching the same parade on the ground would have to watch it in order as it passed in front of them. Jesus would see the world from this perspective, but he would be in contact with the Father in Heaven who sees it differently.Similarly Jesus would have senses and feel hunger as we do. He would know what it means to be mortal first hand. Jesus was the Father's eyes and ears on the ground.The Holy Spirit allowed Jesus to do great things. He could have kept his divinity had he chosen, but that would have made Jesus into a super hero. This would have changed the mission and its outcome. I suspect that it would not be as effective in reaching us. God did not want to just appear to be human, but he wanted to be one of us. He also knew that he could not stay in this form forever.Had Jesus lived he would have grown old and died. He would have lived many more years if he lived a natural life, but his influence would be finite. Instead God had bigger plans. He knew that if he showed who he was that he would be a threat and would be rejected. He knew that this fit perfectly into what he had already established with the law and its sacrificial system. He knew this when he created us and the law so that should not be surprising. It wasn't just a coincidence. Jesus became the ultimate sacrifice.When Jesus died and was resurrected, he changed the world. He changed it in a profound way. He showed that God was more than a remote and distant person. He showed the depth of the Father's love for his creation. He showed the length to which God was willing to go to reach us and to redeem us.The truly beautiful thing about this is that he did it when we were still sinners, unworthy in our own eyes but not in God's eyes. We are God's masterpiece. We are his love child. He dotes on us and delights in us. He did this all along, but we did not see it.When Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father, he did not leave us orphans. He left us the Holy Spirit. When we accept Christ we have the Holy Spirit in us. He is both a sign of salvation (justification) and a helper to allow us to become more like Jesus (sanctification). The mistake that many Christians make is that they believe that when we accept Jesus that this is the end of it, but it is only the beginning of a lifelong journey. They start acting like they have it made when this is the farthest thing from the truth.God never promised to put us in a bubble and keep evil out. He only promised to be with us and help us. He will return to destroy evil, but until that time we must cope with it. When we act as though we are perfected when we first accept Christ, then a few things begin to happen. We ignore the influence of Satan on us and he begins to use this to create space for him to do his evil in your life. It also makes us proud and willful. We think that we are always right and that we are God's answer to all of the world's problem. We aren't. Jesus is. The worst thing is that we do not allow the Holy Spirit to do his work in us and through us. The big thing that most non-Christians need to understand is that Christianity stands alone. It alone is based on relationship. God is not a distant remote being who does not understand us and who we cannot talk to. He is real, in us. Because God chose to enter the world as Jesus he understands our weakness and frailty. Because he left part of himself here in the Holy Spirit we can know him and can do his work. The Trinity is more than an arcane concept. They are terms to describe how God has chosen to express himself to us. God the Father is an expression of God's essence. He is holy, righteous, just and mighty. He never compromises his character. Because of these aspects of his nature, he could not show his grace. Instead, he chooses to express himself in other ways, such as through the Son or the Holy Spirit. To enter the world, God had to give us his throne of majesty. He could never do that, so he didn't. He stayed in Heaven as the Father while he walked the earth as the Son.Jesus is an expression of God's love. He came to earth to spread a different message, one of love, compassion, forgiveness, mercy and grace. These are all attributes of God that became fully realized in Jesus. They allow God to be humble and show his heart for us in ways that he could not previously do.God is very complex. He has many sides to his character. Judaism and Islam do not see all of the sides of God. I do not see their faith so much as wrong as blind. They only see part of God's revelation of himself to us. I also believe that they do not know all that God desires for us. They have cut themselves off from knowing God's love because they do not enjoy his fellowship. They fear him because they see only that aspect of his character. God is multi-faceted. If you look through only one facet, then you should not be surprised to see one part of the whole.God is indeed fearful, but is more than this. He wants to be merciful and Jesus allows him to show this side of his character. Through Jesus we can appeal to God's mercy and love for us and he will forgive our sins. God's righteousness should demand our punishment for our rebellion. But God wants to temper his righteousness, so he gave us a way.You cannot understand things on your own. It is the Holy Spirit that allows you to understand God in his fullness. Sometimes we cannot express in words what we feel. The Holy Spirit gives us direct access to God. He examines our heart, uncovers our naked emotions, and strips away the artifice. You cannot hide form God or wear a mask as you can with people. He sometimes gives us the words to express deep truths that we never knew existed or just a kind word at the right time. These show a tenderness in God that is there if we want to see it.The Holy Spirit also allows us to do Jesus' work on earth. Had Jesus lived he would not be able to do what has already been done on his own. In his humanness he was finite. He could only be in one place at a time and only for so many years. He had to transcend his earthly body because a human body as we know it cannot really contain God and all of his glory. He was able to do this and to show his resurrected body to the world. It is up to his witnesses to carry on his work.The Holy Spirit can be everywhere at once. We are his witnesses and we number in the hundreds of millions. We are not perfect because we are not God, but we can be better with him than we can be on our own. We can do more than he was able to because we still have God with us. His Holy Spirit has all of the power and authority that Jesus or the Father have because he too is God. God's work increased logarithmically after Jesus left. This too was part of God's plan.Right now we are in the End Times. We have been in the End Times for a long time. We are dual citizens. We are citizens of planet earth and we are citizens of Heaven. We are still mortal and can only reside here for now, but that will change. Our bodies and our residence will change.As citizens of planet earth we face many problems. We are told that we are not strong enough to overcome Satan and his power. Only God is. Satan's fate is sealed and he knows it, but his time has not come yet. So he plans to party like there is no tomorrow and enjoy himself while he can. This is to the detriment of humankind and the planet. We are not immune to his influence. We will feel pain and suffer much for our faith, but that is only fleeting. Just like the prisoner who keeps an image of his loved one to survive, we need to look past the trials of this life to see that a better life awaits. Many people focus on the pain and suffering and blame God. He knew that pain and suffering would happen, but this was never his plan for us, nor his desire. Jesus will return, but he will not be the same as the one that walked the earth long ago. He will be triumphant. He will be God personified in all of his fullness of character, both righteous and powerful and loving, and forgiving. He will end all pain and suffering and judge us. We do not have to fear standing before him because he understands us and loves us. Yes, Jesus is fully God.Blessings,Dunamite
     
  18. Mighty Bear

    Mighty Bear New Member

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    (Mighty Bear;22674)
    Our Father is Holy, therefore anyone who is holyis a son of God. Jesus being only the first bornand eldest. Jesus is our brother and he is Holy,He existed with God in the beginning before theearth was formed. Without our Lord Jesus, we wouldnot exist, He is the reason why our Father createdthe universe."He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,"(Hebrews 1:3)"And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,'Let all God's angels worship him.' " (Hebrews 1:6)"For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers," (Hebrews 2:11)"All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made."(John 1:3)"yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."(1 Corinthians 8:6)"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given;and the government shall be upon his shoulder,and his name shall be calledWonderful Counselor, Mighty God,Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."(Isaiah 9:6)Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)"The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,"(Romans 8:16)Church of Love in Jesus Christhttp://christiansite.multiply.com/journal
    "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things were created through him and for him." (Colossians 1:15-16)
     
  19. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(Mighty Bear)
    "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things were created through him and for him." (Colossians 1:15-16)
    Deuteronomy 4:15. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:16. Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,Wallaahu a'lam.
     
  20. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiimSo is it God will contradict with His own Word, that He has been said at Horeb to Jews ?Wallaahu a'lam.
     
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