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Featured Is our understanding of Gen 12:1 correct?

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Jay Ross, Sep 9, 2019.

  1. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    Jesus, said in Matt_5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

    Now, if the meek are the descendants of Abraham, then why did Jesus state that they would inherit the "earth" rather than the "land" which is the traditional understanding of Gen_12:1, 7.

    In Gen_12:7 in our English translation, God undertakes to give the land to Abraham's descendants, yet in Matt_5:5 Jesus tell the crowd, that the meek will inherit the Earth.

    Whose understanding is right with Respect to Gen_12:1, 7, the "scholars," or Jesus?

    If Jesus' understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant is correct, then why do the OT translators still persist with a flawed translation which has flow on effect into other OT prophecies.

    Your thoughts.
     
  2. Dan57

    Dan57 Active Member

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    Two different subjects... Abraham's descendants inherited the promised land, and many of them were anything but meek.
    Christ was talking about an eternal inheritance, the new earth.
    Both were correct, Abraham's descendants did inherit an earthly parcel of land, and Christians will inherit the earth after judgement.
     
  3. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Jesus referred not to the boundless inheritance of the kingdom, but rather to the foreshadowing. Meaning, the meek (the poor, the weak, the needy, the afflicted) shall inherit the foreshadowing. Which is to say they are accursed to reap the natural world, and blessed for the opportunity of redemption:

    "However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual." 1 Corinthians 15:46
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
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  4. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    But if Christ was talking about the inheritance of the earth, why then is Abraham's inheritance also not the Earth as well.

    With regards to the possession of the Promised land for a period of time by Abraham's descendants, that was not promised to Abraham's descendants in Gen_12:7. In Gen_12:7 God promised to give Abraham's descendants the earth just as he had promised to give Abraham the Earth that he would show him.

    God did however promise to give the land to Abraham's descendants in the following passage: -

    Genesis 13:14-17: – 14 And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: "Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are — northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for all the land/earth, which you see, I will give to you and to your descendants forever/for a long period of time {which is at the vanishing point in the future}. 16 And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered. 17 Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for I give it to you./in order for me to give it." ​

    As Stephan stated, Abraham had no portion in the Land of Canaan, not even enough to set his foot on.

    Now I do not see that Gen_12:1, 7, is any different to the statement that Jesus made that the meek shall inherit the earth.

    Now if you can provide a strong argument to differ to the above, I would like to be able to read that argument to see if it convinces me otherwise.

    Shalom
     
  5. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    2 Corinthians 6:10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

    Would it help to see Him as the ‘promised Land’? As the New creation: New Heaven and earth. The Land of Promise is Christ. the dove sent out from the ark searched for “dry land” to “appear”...and He did “appear” “revealed” once in The end...as the restorer of paths to dwell in, the repairer of the breach. where did the dove come to rest in “bodily form” and abide there: This is My beloved Son in whom I Am well pleased.” What about going over on Dry Land that “appears” “revealed”. The meek and poor do inherit the earth but the incorruptible does not inherit corruption. They inherit the New heaven and earth wherein dwells righteousness. The Promised Land ...the children of Promise ... “Behold, I make all things New.” Abraham’s inheritance...is not a plot of land but is much grander and everlasting. Possessing all things.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
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  6. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    "This land" (Canaan) is not "the earth". So why are you even bringing this up? What makes you the expert when every translation as "this land"?
     
  7. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    The simple answer to your question is NO.

    God was asking Abraham to walk towards an earth that he would show him where God's Everlasting Kingdom would be established, a kingdom where Righteousness abounds. God's undertaking of showing Abraham and his descendants an earth was a distant future event that will be five ages in the making.

    The "Promised Land" of Gen_15:17ff was meant to be confirmation for the Descendants of Abraham that they too would inherit the earth as promised in Gen_12:7. Around 680 years after the Gen_13:14-17 was given the descendants of Abraham gained possession of the "Promised Land" and it was not until the time of Solomon that they had gained possession of all of the "Promised Land" and that this possession of the Promised land would only be for a period of around 1450 years before God would cause the descendant to be scattered to the four corner of the earth because of their iniquities.

    Shalom
     
  8. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    Can you confirm for me that all the Translation have translated Gen_12:1, 7 in agreement with the source text from which it was translated?
     
  9. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    The idea of the meek inheriting God's Salvation is applied to ALL of those in Christ Jesus.

    There is NO AUTO SALVATION just because someone is born an Israelite of one of the 12 tribes. All souls must believe on Jesus of Nazareth as God's Promised Saviour.

    All of Christ's Church inherit the promised lands with Abraham, as written in Galatians 3. The inheritance is not of the law.
     
  10. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    You just went backwards 4000 years, leaving out every fulfillment of the foreshadowing of the actual promised land, including the new heaven and new earth, the earth destroyed with fervent heat and with fire, a temple made without hands, and Christ's return, "that where he is, we might be also."

    Where are you going with this?
     
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  11. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    ScottA, I was going to leave you in your usual stew of misunderstanding.

    Gen_12:1 & 7 is all about Abraham and his descendants inheriting the Earth that he, God, would show them. There is no mention of the Promised Land in Genesis until chapter 15.

    God in Gen_13:14-17 gives an undertaking that he will give the land where Abraham has walked as a possession for a period of time which has a time limit set to Abraham's descendants, but nowhere in this passage does God say that he will give any of this land to Abraham.

    Gen_12:1 has been wrongly translated by changing the meaning of hā·’ā·reṣ from "earth" which is the way it has been translated around 67 time in Gen_1-11, but in Genesis_12:1 hā·’ā·reṣ is now consistently translated as "land" in the rest of the OT, with an occasional earth thrown in here and there. The Promised land has, by the time they gain possession of it, become an idol that the Israelites also worshipped. This focusing on the "land" has skewered the translations away from their intended messages.

    Shalom
     
  12. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    'Cease from anger, and forsake wrath:
    fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.
    For evildoers shall be cut off:
    but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
    For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be:
    yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
    But the meek shall inherit the earth;
    and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.'

    (Psalm 37:8-11)

    Hello @Jay Ross,

    'The earth' relates to the land promised.

    It was to the disciples that the Lord was speaking (Matthew 5:1&2.), it was they and all who likewise 'waited upon the Lord' from that nation, who would inherit the land promised to Abraham.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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  13. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    Israel is given the promise of the land, which is where her national existence is, which is the area of Canaan. As a the nation of God she will inherit also the earth as she will be the nation from where Christ will rule in the Millennium.

    Stranger
     
  14. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    Gen_1:1
    upload_2019-9-11_21-0-41.png
    Gen_12:1
    upload_2019-9-11_21-2-14.png

    If you consider the two interlinear passages above, "haa'aarets" in both should have the same meaning of the "earth" but the translators looked to a short time span for the solution of Gen_12:1 and decided that because Abraham went down to the land of Canaan, then God must have meant that He was going to give Abraham a land that He would show him. However, God was making a long term promising to give to Abraham the "earth," over 5,000 years into the future from where He entered into the Abrahamic Covenant with Abraham. Dan_7:27 certainly confirms this.

    Shalom
     
  15. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you are right, but the promise of the possession of the land was not given in Gen_12:1 & 7, it was given later in Gen_13:14-17 and Gen_15:17ff, to name two occurrences and it was going to happen around 680 years into the future and the possession of the land would only be for around 1450 years or so before God scattered all of Israel to the four corners of the earth.

    Now you then mentioned that Christ would rule during the Millennium Age from the nation of Israel, which is outside of the limits of the OP.

    Shalom
     
  16. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    You asked the question though of
    Why did Jesus say “earth” when Genesis says “land” ...there is no conflict there, but “fullness” of the promise from “land” to “All”. When God said He makes all things New where righteousness dwells...again this is the promise made flourishing. Those born of God are new creatures belonging to the New creation...the children of Promise. Paul spoke of not all are Israel but those born of the promise...Inheriting all the promises spoken to Abraham. The New Testament says Jesus confirmed those promises made to Abraham. You can’t reduce it to past; they were scattered for a reason. Isaiah 45:17-18 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. [18] For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord ; and there is none else.
    ^ tells a lot in God formed and made the earth ...established it...He made it not “in vain” meaning He did not make it to be emptiness or void or without profit. But as His words do not return “void” but with Spirit ...also the earth He created not in vain...but with Spirit. Who are the Sons of God...those meek and lowly as Jesus said “learn of Me for I am meek and lowly of heart.” Romans 8:20-21 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
    ^out of the bondage shall the creation be delivered unto those Born of God. Those are the “promised children” of Abraham.

    Daniel 2:19-21 Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven. [20] Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: [21] And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
    ^He removes kings, and sets up kings (His children)...as seen in Revelation pulling down kings and setting others in their place. Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

    Ephesians 1:21-23 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: [22] And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, [23] Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

    Isaiah 10:22-23 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness. [23] For the Lord God of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.
    “...the consumption (wasting) shall overflow with righteousness.” His. Isaiah 28:22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord God of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

    “Behold, I make all things New.” No mistaken...He IS the Land. Isaiah 60:3-4 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. [4] Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
     
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  17. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Well said!
     
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  18. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    Again, what you have written does not focus on the objective of the OP. You are bringing in arguments that are outside of the Gen_12:1 & 7 verses, where the earth is mentioned in both verses.

    Sadly the translators have wrongly translated these two verses as "to a land that I will show you," and this error has then been continued on and off throughout the rest of the OT.

    If the Promised Land was for only a period of approximately 1450 years and the possession of the land was then removed from the Israelites, for all times after that, then for Gen_12:1 & 7 to be applicable still, then god has had to have said, "and go to an earth that I will show you."

    Bye the way Isa_10:23 should end as "In the midst of all the earth." The continuing of the translators error in the translations.

    Shalom
     
  19. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Smell a motive here...what are you attempting to prove? What is the end game? To do away with the promise? The creation account of “let there be light” can be seen as more than the physical creation but also “let there be Light” as the earth delivered out of the bondage of corruption unto the Liberty of the Sons of God, the children of promise...darkness overcome by light. why not just come out with what you are proposing or searching for a confirmation on? “then for Gen_12:1 & 7 to be applicable still, then god has had to have said, "and go to an earth that I will show you."” ...you don’t think God showed them the New thing He would do? What would be the inheritance of the Sons of God if not the New Creation. “Land” “earth” ...even “wilderness” you can not stick in a box to confine it as all is made barren until every high and lifted thing comes under subjection to God and the obedience of Christ. Acts 7:48-49 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, [49] Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  20. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    The OP is simply trying to claim ascendancy over Christ's Church, which it is Christ's Church as God's true Israel that is to inherit the promised lands with Abraham, as Apostle Paul showed in Galatians 3...

    Gal 3:6-9
    6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
    7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, 'In thee shall all nations be blessed.'
    9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
    KJV


    Christ's Church is blessed with faithful Abraham, and are deemed as "the children of Abraham." It goes back to what Paul taught in Romans 9 that not all who are born of the seed of Israel are true Israel, but those who have believed in the Promise (Gospel) are counted for the seed. That means the idea of a spiritual Israel unto God. That is what Christ's Church is, and inherits with Abraham. Paul covers that same concept in Galatians 3.

    Gal 3:13-14
    13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, 'Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree':
    14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
    KJV


    In Romans 8:9, Paul taught that if any man doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, then he is none of His. That is an even greater pointer that to inherit the promised land, one MUST have "the Spirit of Christ". It means literally... one MUST believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ.

    Gal 3:28-29
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    KJV

    There's that same idea Apostle Paul taught in Romans 9 about those in the Promise are 'counted' for the seed.

    So then, would not Abraham's children inherit with him? Yes, of course they do. All others will be cut off.

    So really, debates over whether the earth, or just a specific area of land is meant in Genesis 12 isn't the real point. It's just a mask, as Jay has tried to push this inheritance to Jews only idea in other of his posts.
     
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