It is Catholic understanding that God rewards or punishes according to what the person deserves. That is to say, some will be called greater in Heaven (Matthew 5:17-19), and some commit greater sins (John 19:11).
Is partial obedience better than nothing?
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Rocky Wiley
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Hi joshhuntnm,joshhuntnm said:
Most people do not know what bible obedience is.
It is as was posted here:
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17653-hermeneutics-101-works-of-law-vs-works-of-grace/
That is a misquote from Heb. 10...read the last verse in the chapter...." But we are not of those who draw back to perdition but of those who believe to the saving of the soul" The willful sin of that chapter has to do with sinning outside of the blood sacrifice of Jesus. That is what the context indicates. It is a matter of faith and acceptance of His sacrifice. The way that we insult the Spirit of grace is to fail to accept the sacrifice for sin. We trample the Son of God the same way. He went to more than a lot of trouble and through more than a lot of pain so as to bring us life freely. In fact, it would be an insult to reject this gift of grace by way of offering up our works and obedience for justification, rather than allow His work and sacrifice to be enough on its own. We are justified by faith, not of works, not of ourselves, lest any man boast.Son of Man said:
The weakness of the op question is that the word obedience is not put into any context. Obedience to what? What is that supposed to mean? Many people are simply responding to this thread through their own perspective on just what is required of us to either attain or keep eternal life (salvation).
Obedience to the gospel is what is required. The gospel demands two things; Our humility of acknowledging and confessing our sin, and the faith to accept the free gift of life (grace). Refer to Rom.10:9&10. There is no mention of obedience to any rules, laws, or commands.
Jesus Himself declared that those who believe in Him have everlasting life, are no longer judged, but have passed from death to life. (John5:24). The key to eternal life is not in the ability to perform well enough or to behave well enough, but rather is found in the escaping of judgment. Those who are judged at the Great White Throne, will be judged for their sin. Those who belong to Christ by faith will not sit at that judgment seat. We are identifed by the righteousness that He has placed in us, in the new man, not by the sin that is present in the old man, who has already been declared dead, crucified with Christ.
Someone mentioned the lukewarm church on this thread. However, the context has nothing to do with one's obedience or walk. Jesus gave them the solution to their lukewarmness in the context...." behold, I stand at the door and knock" They were neither cold nor hot because though they had a name that was of Jesus, they were not involved in a relationship with Him through the infilling of His Spirit. He never knew them.
Someone also mentioned the parable of the Sower. This is a good parable for this thread. He who was cast out was rejected for going through the effort to dig a hole and bury his talent (money). The master indicated he should have just put it in the bank and allowed it to collect interest. The point here is that it takes more effort to stop our fruit than to bear just a little. The parable represents those who are opposed to the master's purpose for him. Those who bear just a little fruit do not fit this mould. Yes, a little is enough. He can work with that.
According to Jesus it's out of the question. After all you're refering to luke warmness. Revelations 3:16joshhuntnm said:
Beware of a form of godliness... . Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof; from such turn away. 2Ti 3:5
I too thought the same thing, JB when I referred to having a divided heart. Serving one Master but hating the other. So, in essence you really cannot serve two Masters, says Jesus.JB_Reformed Baptist said:
Heb_10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb_10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Josh, the Christian walk is one of growing and maturing and there is no one that walks in perfect obedience. We may fail in responding to the Holy Spirit, but God does not want us to "draw back unto perdition". Not obeying the Spirit in our life is never right. We have to make the adjustments, not God.
All the best,
Axehead
C'mon, brother. In quoting Heb.10:38,39, how is it that you failed to see what it is actually saying? .."of them who believe to the saving of the soul" If we believe to the saving of the soul (as confirmed in Rom.10:9), then drawing back would be the opposite of that. Namely, unbelief. This is what Paul's letter of rebuke was all about to the Galatian church. They were drawing back to justification by law. He rebuked them for that.Axehead said:
Here is my contention. They who insist that our life must comply with moral behavior in order to be justified, are as much as promoting a works/justification doctrine. But then if we add this to faith, all we are producing is leaven. The two cannot be mixed together in the same category. There is no question that our behavior is important and ought to reflect our new life in Christ. But that is another category than that of justification for life. If we insist on motivating ourselves and others to behave properly in order to mainain our salvation, or to be justified for life, then we undermine faith. This is a serious matter. Faith is being attacked regularily and always has been. Faith is that which glorifies God as the only source of life and righteousness.
Those who insist that we need to bear the fruit of the righteousness and life that we were given, are certainly on the right track. But then why spoil it by using the wrong motive? We do not do this to maintain or keep the life we were given. That puts us right back into self justification. There is a big, huge, humungus difference between struggling with sin in one's life and the outright refusal to bear fruit. Anyone who suggests the one is equivalent to the other is promoting a lie (unknowingly, no doubt). It is only the latter of the two that will cause disqualification for life. Sin by itself will not disqualify one for life. If that was the case, then we are all in grave danger. Hogwash to that! 1John2:1 should clear that up. " if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father".
The term "good news" should be a clue. I see anything but good news in these kind of threads.
Hi Williemac,williemac said:
I am not mixing moral behavior with faith. I added nothing to faith, you brought up moral behavior. But the demons also believe, don't they? The scriptures do indeed speak of faithfulness and Jesus did indeed teach that the trouble with trying to serve two masters is that you cannot be faithful to both of them.
We are incapable of bearing fruit. Fruit only comes as one abides in Christ. It is a product of abiding and to abide we must continue in the faith and faithfulness. If one draws back and stops abiding in Christ then faith and faithfulness have stopped. One will not continue in faithfulness if they are in unbelief and if they are in unbelief they cease to exercise faith towards God.
Therefore the scriptures are true, "The just shall live by faith, but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him". (Heb 10:38).
I don't see where moral behavior was spoken about until you spoke about it. Please don't put words in my mouth.
"Believing to the saving of the soul is not a once in a lifetime event", it is a continuous operation in one's life, I'm sure you will agree. One cannot walk the aisle and pray a prayer and exercise belief one day of their life and then walk in unbelief the rest of their life with total assurance and security that they will be numbered with the faithful in eternity.
All Christians are in the process of dealing with their idiosyncratic patterns of sinfulness and selfishness, but the means of overcoming our “indwelling sin” is not by legalistic efforts to conform, but by allowing Christ the Lord to overcome such by His character.
An often overlooked scripture that I have rarely heard taught on, is 2Co_13:5. "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"
The apostle Paul could refer to Christians as “perfect” (Phil. 3:15), and yet just three verses previously he had confessed that he had not “already become perfect” (Phil. 3:12) behaviorally. The perfecting process, the maturing process, and the growth process of the Christian life is the continuing process of sanctification within the soul of a Christian.
When the living Lord Jesus resides in and is vitally active within a Christian, He cannot and does not overlook the selfishness and sinfulness of a person’s motivations, attitudes, and behavior. To do so would be to deny Himself, His character, the essential purpose of His Being.
British missionary Norman Grubb explained, "Even when Christ has been welcomed within, that old self, largely unrecognized, will still reveal its presence in a thousand ways by self-will, self-importance, selfsufficiency, or by a self-consciousness, or a self
depreciation that paralyzes. God’s Spirit has to take every forward-moving soul through a drastic process of self-exposure. That root of sin has to be looked in the face. Its presumptuous claim to be a sufficient source of wisdom and ability has to be exposed in its falsity." (The Law of Faith)
Axehead
Fair enough, brother, Axehead. To clarify my post, I brought up moral behavior in response to the quote from Hebrews, which is taken from a context that talks about sinning willfully (moral behavior). If you want to make a point about service, then fine. But I tend to respond to passages used. However, I would also caution some to be careful not to put our service into the category of qualification for salvation. The kind of language that often gets used in these discussions would bring salvation into the arena, based on a very hypothetical argument. Hypothetically speaking, one is not sincere in the faith if one is totally walking the same way he was before his so called conversion. But do we dare to disqualify someone else who's sanctification is not going as it should be by insinuating that this is a reflection of their faith? While we may not disqualify, I see language that reflects a class system that reveals itself or imposes itself onto our attitude towards our fellow brothers and sisters. I am not comfortable with that, myself. While I don't see you speaking this kind of language, I would like to remind you that Jesus knows how to discipline and chasten those whom He loves.
I do agree, we cannot bear fruit of ourself. Amen. We ought to inspire and encourage the abiding in our Savior.
I do agree, we cannot bear fruit of ourself. Amen. We ought to inspire and encourage the abiding in our Savior.
Hi Willie,williemac said:
I appreciate your response, but I am not talking about service, either. I am talking about faithfulness. An attitude of the heart. Faithfulness is what Jesus was talking about when He spoke of not being able to serve two masters. It is an impossibility.
Without faithfulness, works and service will never be possible.
Jesus clearly indicated that a person’s spiritual condition would be evidenced by the “fruit” of his behavior (Matt. 7:16-23).
Since a Christian is a “Christ-one” in whom the Spirit of Christ dwells (Rom. 8:9), if the character of Christ is not being evidenced in a person’s life, then it is legitimate to question whether that individual is a Christian despite his profession of such.
Professing and Possessing Christ are not necessarily synonymous, are they?
Isa_29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Mat_15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mar_7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Today we have "safe sex" and we also have "safe forms of Christianity" where no one is responsible for their actions. Bonhoeffer warned of "cheap grace" that requires no real change or sacrifice.
Many who call themselves “Christians” seem to be oblivious to and unconcerned about the fact that the character of their behavior is selfishly misrepresentative of Jesus Christ, and fails to manifest the “fruit of the Spirit” (Gal. 5:22,23).
We cannot be faithful to two lovers and that is why we are to love the Lord thy God with ALL of our heart, soul, mind and strength. Trying to cavort around with many lovers (idols), masquerading as a Christian may fool people but it is a fraud and a farce to God.
Is it possible to be a nominal Christian “in name only,” or a depository Christian who claims to have received Christ into his heart but has no evident desire for intimacy with the living Lord Jesus and no apparent growth in the character of Jesus? Many seem to be content with a false hope that they have a ticket to heaven, or a free pass to wave at St. Peter when they get to the pearly gates.
Rather than be confronted THEN, about being a "Professor of Christ" and not a "Possessor of Christ", let us make whatever adjustments we need to make, NOW!
The Lord is looking for FAITHFULNESS. Is partial faithfulness to your wife better than nothing?
Axehead
What do you think about Paul? How did God regard him?
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Paul plainly confesses that his obedience was imperfect, yet he was acceptable to God because Christ delivered him and delivers us from sin.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Paul plainly confesses that his obedience was imperfect, yet he was acceptable to God because Christ delivered him and delivers us from sin.
Paul remained faithful and did not go after other "lovers" (idols in the heart). He did not fall away from the Lord.
He kept the faith, and finished the race.
Again, "partial faithfulness" is dumbing down the gospel and watering down the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
Partial faithfulness is just another word for a "divided heart". I don't agree with the OP's premise of partial obedience because that is implying "perfect obedience". I think what he meant to say is "partial faithfulness" which implies "holding fast to Jesus" even in terribly difficult situations where one has many conflicts in his soul. Yet, he remains faithful, and believing, and does not shrink back in unbelief and depart from the faith.
1Ti_4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Maybe Josh will drop by again and add to his opening OP regarding what he really had in mind.
Axehead
He kept the faith, and finished the race.
Again, "partial faithfulness" is dumbing down the gospel and watering down the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
Partial faithfulness is just another word for a "divided heart". I don't agree with the OP's premise of partial obedience because that is implying "perfect obedience". I think what he meant to say is "partial faithfulness" which implies "holding fast to Jesus" even in terribly difficult situations where one has many conflicts in his soul. Yet, he remains faithful, and believing, and does not shrink back in unbelief and depart from the faith.
1Ti_4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Maybe Josh will drop by again and add to his opening OP regarding what he really had in mind.
Axehead
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