Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

[Hobie]

Or do the wicked perish instead?

 

[Hobie]

Well lets take a look at what the Bible says will happen to the Wicked...

Job 21:30 King James Version (KJV)
"30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath."

Psalm 37:10 King James Version (KJV)
"10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

Psalm 37:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Psalm 37:28 King James Version (KJV)
"28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 37:38 King James Version (KJV)
"38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 73:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
"17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction."

Psalm 92:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Psalm 104:35 King James Version (KJV)
"35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord."

Psalm 145:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy."

Proverbs 2:22 King James Version (KJV)
"22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it."

Nahum 1:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."

Malachi 4:1King James Version (KJV)
"4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
"8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

2 Peter 2:6 King James Version (KJV)
"6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

2 Peter 2:9-12 King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Peter 3:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

2 Peter 3:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "

Revelation 20:9 King James Version (KJV)
"9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Revelation 21:8 King James Version (KJV)
"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

 

[Giuliano]

Who is thrown into the Lake of Fire?

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Later we see they are outside the Holy City, not allowed to enter.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[Hobie]

Notice they are outside the city when they meet their end...

Revelation 20:9 King James Version (KJV)

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Hobie]

The wicked will be separated from God forever and ever, it is the end of sin and sinners as they will be destroyed and perish. Take a look at the words of Christ Himself...

Matthew 7:13 King James Version (KJV)
"13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

Matthew 10:28 King James Version (KJV)
"28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matthew 13:40-42 King James Version (KJV)
"40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 25:41 King James Version (KJV)
"41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

Luke 13:3 King James Version (KJV)
"3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

John 3:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
"14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Enoch111]

Or do the wicked perish instead?

The cults have taken that word *perish* and caused it to mean annihilation. But every verse which speaks of perish refers to eternal damnation.

 

[Giuliano]

Notice they are outside the city when they meet their end...

Revelation 20:9 King James Version (KJV)

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Please get events in the proper sequence. The people devoured by fire falling from Heaven in Revelation 20:9 are not the same people thrown into the Lake of Fire in verse 15. Come now, this isn't rocket science.

First there is the conflict inspired by Satan as soon as he's released after being imprisoned for a thousand years. Those who actively support him are destroyed by fire from Heaven. Then the Devil is finally disposed of, being thrown in the Lake of Fire; and then the dead are judged. Those whose names are not in the Book of Life are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

The last chapter of the book tells us the people thrown into the Lake of Fire earlier are now outside the Holy City, unable to enter. Don't make this harder than it needs to be.

Matthew 10:28 King James Version (KJV)
"28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Emphatically both body and soul can be destroyed in hell. Completely. Totally out of existence. That does not mean both physical body and soul are being tortured eternally.

I'm guessing you may have a different definition of "soul" than I do. Nowhere in the Bible is the soul said to be immortal. Soul is used to describe the animating force of the body; and animals have soul too. The Bible says animals have soul. If people behave like animals -- or worse than animals even -- their souls certainly will not be preserved or made immortal. Why would God make wicked souls immortal?

 

[Giuliano]

The cults have taken that word *perish* and caused it to mean annihilation. But every verse which speaks of perish refers to eternal damnation.

You mean that's how you interpret it in order to hold onto your theory of things; but sorry, "perish" means "perish." Neither our physical bodies or our souls are immortal.

 

[justbyfaith]

I believe that men will be brought into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) that is conscious torment in a "furnace of fire", causative of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50).

 

[Giuliano]

I believe that men will be brought into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) that is conscious torment in a "furnace of fire", causative of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50).

Maybe, maybe not.

It's said Esau wept when he realized he'd lost the blessing he expected. His punishment was forever, but he didn't weep forever.

 

[Enoch111]

Neither our physical bodies or our souls are immortal.

So you are now siding with the cults. Good luck.

BTW do a careful study of the lexicons, Bible dictionaries and concordances for the word *perish* and its use in the Bible.

 

[Giuliano]

So you are now siding with the cults. Good luck.

BTW do a careful study of the lexicons, Bible dictionaries and concordances for the word *perish* and its use in the Bible.

I did check out what "perish" meant in a lexicon. It's translated right in English. Why make things so complicated? I also know what Jesus said:

Matthew 10:28 King James Version (KJV) "28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

If taking Jesus at his word makes you think I side with cults, oh well. Ezekiel also seems clear to me.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

 

[Hobie]

Please get events in the proper sequence. The people devoured by fire falling from Heaven in Revelation 20:9 are not the same people thrown into the Lake of Fire in verse 15. Come now, this isn't rocket science.

First there is the conflict inspired by Satan as soon as he's released after being imprisoned for a thousand years. Those who actively support him are destroyed by fire from Heaven. Then the Devil is finally disposed of, being thrown in the Lake of Fire; and then the dead are judged. Those whose names are not in the Book of Life are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

The last chapter of the book tells us the people thrown into the Lake of Fire earlier are now outside the Holy City, unable to enter. Don't make this harder than it needs to be.

Emphatically both body and soul can be destroyed in hell. Completely. Totally out of existence. That does not mean both physical body and soul are being tortured eternally.

I'm guessing you may have a different definition of "soul" than I do. Nowhere in the Bible is the soul said to be immortal. Soul is used to describe the animating force of the body; and animals have soul too. The Bible says animals have soul. If people behave like animals -- or worse than animals even -- their souls certainly will not be preserved or made immortal. Why would God make wicked souls immortal?

There is only one final place of judgment known as the "lake of fire." The wicked don't get burned a series of times or sit around in Purgatory, etc.. its just once.

 

[Hobie]

I believe that men will be brought into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) that is conscious torment in a "furnace of fire", causative of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50).

Yes, but think about it, do the wicked get eternal life. That's what it would be, even if not desireable, and the Bible does not teach that. Look closely what scripture shows that happens to the wicked..


Psalm 1:4
The wicked are not so, But they are like chaff which the wind drives away.

Psalm 1:6
For the LORD knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the wicked will perish.

Job 38:13
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it?

Ezekiel 33:8
"When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,' and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require from your hand.

Job 13:16
"This also will be my salvation, For a godless man may not come before His presence.

John 9:31
"We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

Isaiah 48:22
"There is no peace for the wicked," says the LORD.

Isaiah 57:21
"There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."

Isaiah 3:11
Woe to the wicked! It will go badly with him, For what he deserves will be done to him.

Psalm 37:9-10
For evildoers will be cut off, But those who wait for the LORD, they will inherit the land. Yet a little while and the wicked man will be no more; And you will look carefully for his place and he will not be there.

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the LORD will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish--like smoke they vanish away.

Psalm 37:34
Wait for the LORD and keep His way, And He will exalt you to inherit the land; When the wicked are cut off, you will see it.

2 Samuel 23:6
"But the worthless, every one of them will be thrust away like thorns, Because they cannot be taken in hand;

Job 18:5
"Indeed, the light of the wicked goes out, And the flame of his fire gives no light.

Job 11:20
"But the eyes of the wicked will fail, And there will be no escape for them; And their hope is to breathe their last."

Job 21:28
"For you say, 'Where is the house of the nobleman, And where is the tent, the dwelling places of the wicked?'

Like smoke they vanish, but God is all powerful and could bring them back. But this death is the 'second death', a complete and final separation from God, which is for eternity.

 

[Giuliano]

There is only one final place of judgment known as the "lake of fire." The wicked don't get burned a series of times or sit around in Purgatory, etc.. its just once.

What are you talking about? If there is only one place, what is hell for? And why is hell itself thrown into the Lake of Fire?

 

[Hobie]

The Jews had little actual teachings on the concept of '‘Hell'’ as a place where Satan was in charge with demons running around with pitchforks. It got picked up from pagan and Greek thought, and became seen as a place of eternal torment with demons in charger where sinners were punished forever, so you can see how todays idea of 'Hell' evolved.

So lets look at what seems to come nearest to this which is “Hades.” This Greek word is also translated “Hell” in many English Bibles, such as the King James Version. In Revelation 6:8, the King James Version refers to “Death, and Hell [Hades].” It does this same in Revelation 20:14. Yet some English Bibles leave the word “Hades” itself, which translates Revelation 6:8 and 20:14 as “Death, and Hades.” Now here's a key point: in Revelation 20:14 “Hades”(“Hell”) is eventually “cast into the lake of fire.” Thus “Hades” itself is not a fiery place, but is cast into “the lake of fire.”

So we see where the grave or death or eventual destruction of the wicked, was translated using Greek words that since they had no exact ones to use, became a mix of mistranslation, pagan influence, and Greek myth associated with the word, but its original meaning was simple death or the destruction of the wicked at the end. “Hades” was simply the word closest in meaning to the Hebrew “Sheol”. The new versions now leave the word 'Sheol' untranslated, which is better than the Greek words used which cause confusion if the necessary basic Hebrew to Greek word translation used at the time is not understood.

 

[Hobie]

In King James Version, there is a marginal reference beside the word “Hell”(Hades) listed in Revelation 20:13 and 14. It says “Hell” literally means “the grave.” Thus Revelation 20:14 could properly be translated, “death and the grave were cast into the lake of fire.” This makes sense.

To make it simple,“ Hades” literally means “the grave:
1 Corinthians 15:55 King James Version (KJV)
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

If you look in any Strong's Concordance, you'll see that the original Greek word here translated “grave” is “Hades.” By looking at the context, its obvious that “Hades” means “the grave” because it is Gods saints who rise out of “Hades” when Jesus Christ returns, look at the verses:

1 Corinthians 15:51-55 King James Version (KJV)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

 

[Giuliano]

The Jews had little actual teachings on the concept of '‘Hell'’ as a place where Satan was in charge with demons running around with pitchforks. It got picked up from pagan and Greek thought, and became seen as a place of eternal torment with demons in charger where sinners were punished forever, so you can see how todays idea of 'Hell' evolved.

So lets look at what seems to come nearest to this which is “Hades.” This Greek word is also translated “Hell” in many English Bibles, such as the King James Version. In Revelation 6:8, the King James Version refers to “Death, and Hell [Hades].” It does this same in Revelation 20:14. Yet some English Bibles leave the word “Hades” itself, which translates Revelation 6:8 and 20:14 as “Death, and Hades.” Now here's a key point: in Revelation 20:14 “Hades”(“Hell”) is eventually “cast into the lake of fire.” Thus “Hades” itself is not a fiery place, but is cast into “the lake of fire.”

So we see where the grave or death or eventual destruction of the wicked, was translated using Greek words that since they had no exact ones to use, became a mix of mistranslation, pagan influence, and Greek myth associated with the word, but its original meaning was simple death or the destruction of the wicked at the end. “Hades” was simply the word closest in meaning to the Hebrew “Sheol”. The new versions now leave the word 'Sheol' untranslated, which is better than the Greek words used which cause confusion if the necessary basic Hebrew to Greek word translation used at the time is not understood.

Jesus tells a story about a rich man in "hades" who is in torment. It is said he is in torment from the fire. Go figure. It looks a lot like how the Jews describe gehenna to me who say gehenna and Paradise are next door to each other.

 

[Taken]

Emphatically both body and soul can be destroyed in hell. Completely.

Agree, (vessel) Body can be Destroyed.
...it's natural LIFE BLOOD.
Agree, (vessel) Soul can be Destroyed.
...it's spiritual LIFE Gods BREATH.

Totally out of existence.

Um...the Destruction of the BODY...
1) First returns to DUST...then ASH? IDK

Um..the Destruction of the SOUL...
1) to ASH? IDK

Blood life...returns to Dust.
Soul life.....return to God.

That does not mean both physical body and soul are being tortured eternally.

Torture is generally associated with FEELINGS of Physical Pain, via a BODY'S NERVES.

The Eternal Torture, Damnation, IS Eternal separation from God.

God IS Merciful. There IS NO LIFE in the Body. There IS NO LIFE in the Soul...for a man to eternally FEEL physical PAIN.

I'm guessing you may have a different definition of "soul" than I do. Nowhere in the Bible is the soul said to be immortal.

Not sure your definition of "soul".
I would say the "soul" is something God has made.
By all teaching I find, the soul appears to be a type of Vessel, that God Imparts with His Breath of Life.

The Form...(Body),
(which God made; Isa 43::12)
from Dust (Gen 2:7)

The Soul....,
(which God made; Isa 57:16)
Is Life from Gods Breath imparted into a Body,
Via God Blowing; Gen 2:7

Soul is used to describe the animating force of the body;

Agree. The SOUL "WITH" Gods Breath of Life....AND IN a BODY...
Quickens the BODY into a Living state.

The Body's LIFE, being quickened: (with Gods Breath)
IS the Body's LIFE, which is the Body's BLOOD: Gen 9:5

The Alive SOUL (with Gods Breath)...Once IN a BODY...the Body's LIFE (blood) IS Living.

The Alive SOUL (with Gods Breath)....Departs OUT of a "dying BODY'.
A body whose (LIFE) Blood stops flowing to maintain the heart...IS a Dying BODY.

The departed Living soul, that IS SAVED, IS Saved UNTO the Lord, and goes to Be WITH the Lord, where He IS....in Heaven.

The departed Living soul, that Is NOT SAVED, IS NOT Saved UNTO the Lord, and goes to Hell...and experiences Conscience Separation From God, From Gods Earthly beauty, pleasantries and Gods Spiritual comfort.

THAT ^ experience for a Living Unsaved soul, IS conscience Torture, which shall continue...
UNTIL Judgement Day and Sentencing, where we already KNOW, Gods Breath shall depart the living soul, and return to God, and the soul and body destroyed.

and animals have soul too. The Bible says animals have soul.

Agree.

If people behave like animals -- or worse than animals even -- their souls certainly will not be preserved or made immortal.

Don't agree. Animals can not SIN.

Why would God make wicked souls immortal?

Because they Trusted to Believe, Repent and become restored and reconcilled unto the Lord God.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Giuliano]

Agree, (vessel) Body can be Destroyed.
...it's natural LIFE BLOOD.
Agree, (vessel) Soul can be Destroyed.
...it's spiritual LIFE Gods BREATH.

I do not think soul and spirit are the same thing.

Um...the Destruction of the BODY...
1) First returns to DUST...then ASH? IDK

Um..the Destruction of the SOUL...
1) to ASH? IDK

Blood life...returns to Dust.
Soul life.....return to God.

I would say spirit returns to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Torture is generally associated with FEELINGS of Physical Pain, via a BODY'S NERVES.

Pain is associated with the soul.

The Eternal Torture, Damnation, IS Eternal separation from God.

God IS Merciful. There IS NO LIFE in the Body. There IS NO LIFE in the Soul...for a man to eternally FEEL physical PAIN.



Not sure your definition of "soul".
I would say the "soul" is something God has made.

The word Nephesh is unevenly translated in the KJV. Here it's translated as "life."

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

By all teaching I find, the soul appears to be a type of Vessel, that God Imparts with His Breath of Life.

The Form...(Body),
(which God made; Isa 43::12)
from Dust (Gen 2:7)

The Soul....,
(which God made; Isa 57:16)
Is Life from Gods Breath imparted into a Body,
Via God Blowing; Gen 2:7



Agree. The SOUL "WITH" Gods Breath of Life....AND IN a BODY...
Quickens the BODY into a Living state.

The Body's LIFE, being quickened: (with Gods Breath)

The word "nephesh"is used again in Genesis when it is said to become a living soul.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Animalls were given nephesh or soul but they did not receive the same breath of life.

IS the Body's LIFE, which is the Body's BLOOD: Gen 9:5

Animals have blood which is said to contain life too. That is a lower degree of life. When man sinned under the law of Moses and became unclean, the blood of animals could be used to remove that uncleanness; but it did not correct anything else.

The Alive SOUL (with Gods Breath)...Once IN a BODY...the Body's LIFE (blood) IS Living.

The Alive SOUL (with Gods Breath)....Departs OUT of a "dying BODY'.
A body whose (LIFE) Blood stops flowing to maintain the heart...IS a Dying BODY.

The departed Living soul, that IS SAVED, IS Saved UNTO the Lord, and goes to Be WITH the Lord, where He IS....in Heaven.

The departed Living soul, that Is NOT SAVED, IS NOT Saved UNTO the Lord, and goes to Hell...and experiences Conscience Separation From God, From Gods Earthly beauty, pleasantries and Gods Spiritual comfort.

THAT ^ experience for a Living Unsaved soul, IS conscience Torture, which shall continue...
UNTIL Judgement Day and Sentencing, where we already KNOW, Gods Breath shall depart the living soul, and return to God, and the soul and body destroyed.

I think Adam and Eve "died" when they sinned. People can be walking around and be spiritually dead. They are alive the way animals are.