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Featured Is the Holy Spirit needed to believe initially?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by friend of, Feb 13, 2019.

  1. friend of

    friend of Active Member

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    I suppose this thread is aimed more at Calvinists and their doctrine of total depravity, which inferrs that the inception of faith in Christ is solely the work of the Holy Spirit convincing one of the truth about Christ.

    John 7:37-39


    Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

    This passage shows that people believed in Jesus before receiving the Holy Spirit (aparently). So what compelled them to believe in Jesus' testimony if the Spirit had not yet been given them? Was it their own free will in this case?
     
  2. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    The context and timing of the scripture you have her is in pre-grace period, under the Law. These believers were credited with faith of their own will as was Moses and Abraham and many others until the Son of God was glorified and immortalized. It was a very unique time leading up to the pouring out of the spirit of truth as you said. Then under the grace of God, he provided this spirit and since that time, this spirit of God that Christ also possesses always comes knocking at our hearts first, before the gospel becomes real to us and we are given faith to believe in it.

    Bless you,

    APAK
     
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  3. 1stCenturyLady

    1stCenturyLady Well-Known Member

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    Here are two verses in the gospel of John that seem to contradict one another. The first is one Calvinists use to advocate only their elect are chosen irresistibly, and the other shows all men being drawn.

    John 6:44
    No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 12:32
    And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
     
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  4. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    You cannot receive the Holy Spirit without belief, so yes you have to believe first, and that has nothing to do with the sinners prayer or baptism. He is given by God when He knows you believe, and that might even be before you know you do.
     
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  5. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    It speaks of the gift of the Spirit, but says nothing about the activity of the Spirit.
    You assume that the Spirit only works in people After it has been given to them.

    You also ignore the nature of slavery. see Romans 6:
    17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
    19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    How does someone enthralled to the lure of sin change themselves to want rightousness?
    To use a modern illistration.
    'How does a junkie addicted to his drug stop wanting that fix, without outside help?

    Put another way if salvation is all of God, it is God who is glorified, if man has any input in salvation then it is man who gets to boast of how he saved himself.
     
  6. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Rom 1
    [20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
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  7. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must have before they can discern and believe in the true Christ. Otherwise they believe only with the flesh in idols bearing his name.
     
  8. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    He is constantly drawing all men but not all are receptive. Many become receptive only after their lives take a turn for the worse, and they become disillusioned with this world. As the scripture says, "He has made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth... that they should seek the Lord, if perhaps they might search after Him and find Him, though He be not far from every one of us." (Acts 17:26-27). The notion that He has made it so the whole earth will seek after Him and yet nevertheless determines those who will actually find Him is why Calvinism makes no sense to me.
     
  9. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    This turns the gospel into law and makes salvation depend on obedience (works). Grace saves dead people who cannot respond to God in any true sense.
     
  10. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    That is not quite accurate. Calvinists wrongly believe that sinners are REGENERATED before they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Actually the opposite is true, since only those who obey the Gospel are regenerated (John 1:12,13; Titus 3:4-7). Which means repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

    As to you question about the convincing and convicting of the Holy Spirit, that has been true ever since early times (before Pentecost). And that is indeed the work of the Holy Spirit on sinners when they hear (or read) the Gospel.

    So it is the power of the Gospel itself, under the convincing and convicting of the Holy Spirit, that generates saving faith, which then leads to regeneration.
     
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  11. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Dead people cannot believe unless first regenerated.
     
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  12. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Obviously you have never heard of the obedience of faith or obedience to the Gospel. That is NOT works but faith -- saving faith (not the spiritual gift given to Christians). Study the Bible, not the doctrines of men.
    That is quite false as I have noted in my previous post. Obviously you have ignored or disregarded (a) the supernatural power of the Gospel itself and (b) the supernatural convicting and convincing of the Holy Spirit in bringing souls to Christ.
     
  13. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Unless a person is first born again, they can only believe in a false Christ. And flesh faith cannot save.
     
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  14. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    That is TOTAL NONSENSE and unbiblical to boot. No one can be regenerated without having first received the gift of the Holy Ghost, and no one can receive that gift until and unless they repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:37,38)

    But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13)

    But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:4-7)
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
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  15. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    More nonsense, and there is no such thing as "flesh faith".
     
  16. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    When's the last time you bought a product because you believed the advertisement was true?
     
  17. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    The Holy Spirit produces faith through the new birth. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is an effect of repentance.
     
  18. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    No offense, Dave, but you don't even know what the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is. I know your response, so no need to write it out. But IMO you have a theology that has been completely constructed in your head, and has no foundation in actual Christian experience.
     
  19. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Only a lack of study on your part would draw this conclusion about me. I'm in line with historic Baptist and Reformed Theology in matters of sin and grace.
     
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  20. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Come on, Dave. I've been reading your posts for quite awhile now and I know what you believe. I wasn't saying you do not manifest Christian traits. I was saying your doctrine on the baptism of the Holy Spirit has no foundation in actual experience, and there are a number of people on this Forum who would agree with me on that. As for your being in line with historic Baptist and Reformed Theology in the matter, I'm also well aware of this. If you were paying attention to me at all you would know I think they are largely ignorant about the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as well. I believe you posted recently about many people on the Christian Forums not thinking or studying for themselves but simply following the denominational lines they have been taught to follow. Yet this is actually what you do more than anyone here.
     
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