1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Is there a 'world of spirits'?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Mike Waters, Jan 24, 2020.

  1. Mike Waters

    Mike Waters Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    282
    Likes Received:
    502
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    I hope I am right in highlighting (as a topic theme) the following extracts from chapters 3 and 4 of Peter's first Epistle:

    "Christ, was put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.
    Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
    It was for this cause that the gospel was preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit"

    So that you can see them in context, the verses highlighted above are the emboldened bits within the following joined up text from the end of chapter 3 and the beginning of chapter 4:

    "Christ, was put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

    Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

    For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

    It was for this cause that the gospel was preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit".

    Wadya all reckon about 'The aforementioned Spirit World'?

    For me, its active existence is my best explanation for certain bits of otherwise unexplainable paranormality such as young children being able to describe historic information that they could not possibly have otherwise known about.

    PS I suppose Matthew 27:51-53 could also fit well into this topic (provided you can surmount the Hebrews 9:27 "once" stumbling block)
     
    Nancy and Helen like this.
  2. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,864
    Likes Received:
    1,119
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    The highlighted bits give you the answer. Those who are Christ's are safe with him. Those who are not his are the torment spirits and demons
    Cut off from all that is good.
    There is a spirit world, but it is one that no onewith any sense wants to have anything to do with.
     
    r1xlx and Nancy like this.
  3. Jodi

    Jodi Member

    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Hi Mike,

    I discussed this in another thread.

    When Jesus preached he was preaching to the spirits in men, he was not preaching unto their feet, or their arms, but to their spirit. He preached to spirits in prison, unto human spirits, men alive in jail. Those in prison repented, they were once disobedient, just like those in the days of Noah were disobedient. Noah was saved by water and the prisoner's who Jesus preached to were saved by water also, their baptism.

    Paul teaches us that we are all seen as dead because of sin. Not all that were preached to that were dead, seen as dead because of sin, heard the word, thus they remained dead to sin because they were not repentant of their sins. Those who heard the word, considered as once dead because of sin, are now said to be alive because of the Spirit of God that dwells in them.

    There are many, many scriptures that show that there is LIFE and there is DEATH, DEATH as not equating to your body dying, but death meaning that you have NO LIFE, you cease to exist. God told Adam that 'he', not just his body, but 'he' was made of the dust and that 'he' would return to the dust.
     
    amadeus likes this.
  4. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,558
    Likes Received:
    11,595
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    When I envision the "evil" spirit world, I see demons of all kinds hanging off the eve's of homes, trees, telephone wires, cars. Some places more than others....they don't sleep. When I envision the "good" spirit world, I see Gods mighty angels protecting those who love Him...there are more of them than the evil ones at some places. Just my thoughts :)
     
    r1xlx likes this.
  5. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    15,011
    Likes Received:
    19,702
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Hi,
    I still 'have a problem' when we read that ( dead) Christians are dafe with Him and the unsaved are being tormented.

    Even the Devil and his hordes are not yet tormented ...because they are thrown in - at the end. Rev.

    If they haven't yet been sentenced why does most of Christendom believe that the dead saved or unsaved have already be sentenced ?
    I don't understand where this teaching comes from, I used to believe it too.

    I Do believe that we all 'go somewhere', but sentencing has not taken place yet. IMHO :)
     
    r1xlx, mjrhealth and Nancy like this.
  6. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    15,011
    Likes Received:
    19,702
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    @Mike Waters

    I say yes, there is a kingdom of light and a kingdom of darkness. A world of good spirits and a world of evil. I believe they are interactive in the 2nd heaven. ( reminded of when Daniels prayer answer was on it's way from God...and an evil spirit wrestled 21 days with the Messenger to hinder it's arrival. ) Now why it says 21 days I don't know...as there is no Time in the spirit world. So I wonder if that was an instant encounter or if it went on for a while...but then, what is 'a while'...outside of Time. :)
     
    mjrhealth and Nancy like this.
  7. Jodi

    Jodi Member

    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Now hear is the truth that I don't hear many people attest to that may blow your mind,

    Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

    Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    Deut 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: 2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God. 3 Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field. 4 Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep...

    ....15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: 16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field. 17 Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store. 18 Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep. 19 Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out. 20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me...22 The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish....27 The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed. 28 The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart: 29 And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee. ..examples of cursing continues.

    1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.


    The Israelites did disobey and they were CURSED BY GOD. Who brought forth these curses? God DID as He said He would, and they were delivered by His righteous angels.

    The Israelites disobeyed as the believed in and worshiped other gods. You are told by God that these gods have no power, they cannot bless you or curse you, only God can do that, why God says it is only Him that you should fear.

    But the Israelites believing in false gods denoted the cause of their cursing to come from 'wicked spirits', not according to the truth, they came according to God's righteous hand. Oh how they were filled with idolatry and total self-righteousness, those unclean spirits are the direct hand of God. God brings forth palsy, blindness, madness, all manner of viruses, bacteria, tumors, diseases, and infirmities. The whole work of the Book of Enoch is the perfect example of self -righteous Jews who were corrupted by pagan beliefs.

    The adversary in the book of Job was only an adversary to Job. Job knew that the work of the adversary was the hand of God, he said it was. The adversary followed all of God's commands, the adversary was correct about Job, and Job in the end after all the cursing ended up learning more about himself and God. There is no such thing as "fallen angels", to believe in them is to believe in false gods and to be self-righteous.

    If you are a pagan you believed in daimons and daimonions, these were believed to be spirits where some brought you blessing while others brought cursing. The truth is only God brings forth blessings and cursing- bad/unclean spirits.

    God said He would curse, however He said also that He could HEAL.
    Jesus came an rebuked the unclean spirits, by his word he was given the power to heal.

    Now if you grow up believing in wicked rebel spirits and then you suffer from madness, some form of insanity, what are you going to say in your insanity? What are you going to hallucinate and then say that you see? You are going to be propagating and perpetuating that wicked rebel spirits are true. Let's say you are a person that suffers from multiple personalities and you believe in wicked rebel spirits, one of your personalities no surprise turns up to be a wicked rebel spirit! Oh now that is proof that they must be real, NO! A whole family was suffering and believed their house was haunted and that demons were entering them, the truth, the house was filled with lead and the entire family went insane due to lead poisoning.
     
    amadeus likes this.
  8. Jodi

    Jodi Member

    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Hi Helen,

    I use to believe in Satan and his demons, but it has been about 12 years now at least where I don't anymore.

    Consider below,

    The Hebrew word in the OT that means adversary, it's phonetic sound is SAW-TAWN. In the OT adversary SAW-TAWN, is used to describe men being adversaries unto other men, AND it is used to describe God's Holy Angels who were bringing cursing to man, being an adversary a SAW-TAWN unto man. I do not see one example in the OT where there is an adversary, a SAW-TAWN who is shown to be a wicked rebel spirit entity who is AGAINST God.

    Jesus calls Peter an adversary, SAW-TAWN because he had in his mind the things of MEN.

    The word DEVIL is DIABOLOS and the meaning of that word is slanderer, false accuser, liar, deceiver. If you were a Christian you were being persecuted by the government/emperor, and the government/emperor was indeed a diablolos against you. Why in Revelation Christians were told to be faithful as the devil, the current governement/emperor, was going to throw some of them in prison and kill them.

    The Dragon in Revelation and the beast in Daniel you are directly told represent kings, and their messengers are their armies that carry out the kings will. We are directly told multiple times that sin comes from man's own imagination, and that men behave like natural brute beasts, like animals. Man is likened to a serpent because serpents are deaf and blind, and men are deaf and blind to God, unless God has called you to the truth or has worked in you fruits of His Spirit. Man is likened to a serpent when he lies and deceives as such is poison under his tongue like that of a serpent. The Dragon is called the old serpent, as the kings that make up the Dragon, are deaf and blind to God's way, they follow the imagination of their hearts, they haven't change at all, they resemble that of an ignorant brute beast, like a serpent who likewise hasn't changed his behavior. ALSO, in scripture, 'the heavens' are represented as persons or governments that are in the HIGHEST POSITION of authority, where they hold the HIGHEST POWER over the world. When Christ returns it is a war of powers, where he is going to cast down all rulers who dwell in the heavens, meaning those who are living on HIGH.
     
    amadeus likes this.
  9. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    15,011
    Likes Received:
    19,702
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Yes , I heard all of that a long time ago , interesting, but no , I don't ‘buy it’. :)
     
    r1xlx and Nancy like this.
  10. Jodi

    Jodi Member

    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Hi Helen,

    Thanks for your response. What is it exactly that you don't buy? I could give pages of scriptural support for every point I made.

    Isaiah 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    word EVIL is RA meaning BAD, not wicked entirely, but also something that is not merely pleasant, disagreeable, or even miserable.

    God punishes for instruction and out of righteousness, that punishment is RA/BAD/disagreeable, miserable to the receiver.

    Man however does RA/BAD unto others out of selfishness, hatred.

    The curses that God said He would bring to the Israelites were indeed BAD, disagreeable/many being absolutely miserable.

    When a person denotes the supernatural powers that God says that He ONLY has to another being, they have thus created a false god.
     
    amadeus likes this.
  11. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    15,011
    Likes Received:
    19,702
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    When I was young I used to spend time digging into such side lines.
    Now I only study things which bring me closer to the Lord, and that which we will be answerable to , at the end.
    I no long get distracted by 'side issues' which no one can prove one way or the other, we all have opinions , which we are convince we can 'back-up' by scripture.

    But, bless you in yours... :)
     
    Nancy likes this.
  12. Jodi

    Jodi Member

    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Hi Helen,

    I can respect your decision that you are willing to make a comment such as, "I say yes, there is a kingdom of light and a kingdom of darkness. A world of good spirits and a world of evil", but that doesn't mean that you'd be into having a scriptural discussion about it.

    I guess I would appreciate at least a response to the scripture I gave and to know how it fits into your comment I just quoted, if you don't mind?

    Here is the passage again,

    Isaiah 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    This is our LORD revealing truth to you about Himself, which knowing that truth and believing in it, one would think that does bring you closer to the LORD.

    Honestly, I don't understand at all your comment about "side issues", we are talking about the LORD'S WORD, you want to tell me that parts of it are just vanity, empty stuff we shouldn't pay attention to as some of it has nothing to do with our relationship with the LORD?
     
  13. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,436
    Likes Received:
    8,223
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Then why are you quoting Scripture to justify your false beliefs? If you don't believe in Satan and his demons then you should not believe anything else in the Bible. People are not at liberty to pick and choose what they will believe and what they will not.

    There is absolutely no doubt -- based upon Scripture -- that there is a kingdom of darkness with Satan as the ruler of darkness, just as there is a Kingdom of Light, with God and Christ as sovereign.
     
    Nancy and Helen like this.
  14. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    15,011
    Likes Received:
    19,702
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    SELAH.

    happy0065.gif
     
    Nancy and Enoch111 like this.
  15. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,436
    Likes Received:
    8,223
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Of course there is a spirit world which is probably even more real than the material world. Just because spirits are invisible does not mean that they are non-existent. There are good spirits and bad spirits.

    God the Father is a Spirit, and no man has seen God at anytime. The Holy Spirit is also a Spirit, and no man has seen Him.

    But Satan is also a spirit being -- an evil angel, and he has hordes of evil angels at his bidding. All false pagan gods are in fact demons (devils). But all evil spirits (angels) are not necessarily demons. So Christians must have a proper understanding of the spirit world, since they are in a battle with evil spirits.
     
    Nancy and Helen like this.
  16. Jodi

    Jodi Member

    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Hi Enoch111,

    The more I studied scripture the more I found what you believe is false. I'm not a puppet to a doctrine of men. When you read scripture and things don't add up to what you have been taught, you question not God's word, but the doctrine of men.

    When I have debated this to others what I get in response to the vast amount of scriptures that I give is that they are completely ignored and thus not applied to the handful of scriptures that my opponents believe are against me, when in fact they are not.

    You are told throughout the bible WHY MEN SIN, and it never has anything to do with WICKED REBEL spirit beings influencing people's minds, it has everything to do with MAN'S OWN IMAGINATION.

    You are told that it is God ALONE who has supernatural powers to bless you or CURSE you. God makes you blind, deaf, dumb, it is He that causes men to go MAD. You are told that God forms the light and CREATES DARKNESS.

    You are told that it is God that raises up kings and brings down kings, He has control over governments and boundaries of nations.

    So tell me, what is it that these 'fallen angels/wicked rebel spirits of darkness' do exactly?
     
  17. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,558
    Likes Received:
    11,595
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Hello Jodi, and welcome to the forum.
    What you have to say here is intriguing and, I have never read anything like it so, I will prob look into it for curiosity sake :D But...I must ask, who are these scriptures (and many more like them) speaking of?

    1 Peter 5:8 ESV
    "Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour"

    James 4:7 ESV
    Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

    Ephesians 6:11 ESV
    "Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil."
     
    Helen and Giuliano like this.
  18. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,533
    Likes Received:
    3,266
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    There is only one Creator, that's for sure; but we should not believe God is capable of inventing iniquity. Evil, in that passage, does not mean morally depraved or wicked. It means "bad" as a "bad field" that doesn't produce. Darkness is also created; but darkness is not a thing -- it is not the "presence" of something -- it is the absence of light.

    Both "evil" (or "bad") and "darkness" therefore are states that do not exist in reality. To understand them, we must use our imagination. God also uses His imagination to create these non-real states.

    Note now that it is said God "forms" the light -- it is not said He "creates" it. Genesis 1 also does not say God "created" light. He didn't. The creation was dark, and light was formed by calling it forth out of the darkness -- by the Word.

    Similarly shalom or peace is not created but made out of the created "evil."

    All of God's works are good; and by works, I mean real things. "Bad" or the "unproductive -- and darkness are imaginary states and do not count as works.

    Some spiritual beings have become evil in the sense of iniquity. God did not make them that way. God is perfectly Good and Loving. Do not imagine any imperfection in God.
     
  19. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,942
    Likes Received:
    3,166
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Two good books to get on the Spirit World.

    'The Spirit World' by Clarence Larkin

    'The Invisible War' by Donald Grey Barnhouse.

    Stranger
     
    Nancy and Helen like this.
  20. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,864
    Likes Received:
    1,119
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    The alternative is to believe that the dead are able to return, haunt etc the places and people they knew when alive.

    For me Jesus said, " Today you will be with me."
    Paul in Hebrews wrote, it is given to men to die once, after that comes judgement. Doesn't say anything about where the dead are, but it implies they are held for judgement.
    Revelation has several word pictures of the dead Christians waiting in heaven and of the non Christian dead being held in the place of the dead.
     
Loading...