1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Is there FREE WILL TODAY ?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by dan p, Feb 11, 2011.

  1. dan p

    dan p New Member

    Messages:
    358
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi to all and many see scripture where is says " who so ever will may come ". and that to them says that free will has been around forever , of COURSE I say , NO .

    In my bible study there are only 2 groups that REALLY HAD FREE WILL .

    #1 , ONE pair were Adam and Eve , because they HAD NEVER DONE anything wrong ., but failed the test that God gave them .

    #2 , the next ones were created , and God made millions of them and these were angels , along with Lucifer and they failed there test and the ones that stay are called holy angels and the other's became fallen angel's ,

    #3 , Then the message to the Jews in Acts 2:21 , is " that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved .


    For Israel ( Rom 11:5 it is by Election .

    For Gentiles , it is also by Election .and there is no FREE WILL today ? dan p
     
  2. Disciple

    Disciple Soldiers United 4 Christ

    Messages:
    406
    Likes Received:
    9
    Man definately has free will, free to sin, and free to follow God's will, we must choose which one is for us.
     
  3. dan p

    dan p New Member

    Messages:
    358
    Likes Received:
    0

    Hi disciple , and we are talking , in the begginning , for today , after Adam ALL just sin and not no why .
     
  4. Disciple

    Disciple Soldiers United 4 Christ

    Messages:
    406
    Likes Received:
    9
    Man has had free will since adam, thats why they were able to eat the forbidden fruit, God gives us choices, He created Light and darkness and those he elected before the world was made are predestined to turn to the Light and follow his will.
     
  5. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    2
    Nowhere in the Bible does it describe man's ability to make all of the choices they make as being their God given gift of free will.


    Our freedom to make choices is given us specifically to be used in the exercise of godly love.


    If God gave us freedom to choose to do badness then it would be our right to choose to do badness and God being the giver of that freedom could not then justly punish us for it. His informing us of the potential for us to abuse our power to make choices in no way translates to his granting us the freedom to make choices contrary to the love he also made us to be capable of exercising in his image.


    This is one subject that makes me say, "Wow, little children in their limited understanding sense more about fair play and God's justice than do adults who have reasoned that capability away."


    How stupid is it for a person to believe that God designed us to be completely free when the scriptures tell us: 1 Peter 2:16 " As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God."


    This is not freedom to sin. This is freedom from the bondage to enslavement to sin; and it is freedom from the curse of the Law which would kill us for the sin in us. It is freedom to live to another master; a master who will not be so harsh upon us as our former master. And it is freedom to submit to and live by a law instilled His law of love written by Him our hearts.


    If we were completely free we would have no law to guide us at all; for anytime a law must guide, that law makes one's choices for them. Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."


    Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"


    Can you see that God has not given anyone the freedom to sin? Can you see that God did not give Adam the freedom to eat of that forbidden tree? Men corrupted themselves as did Satan and wrongfully ceased a perverted freedom to themselves. They abused their power of choice and used it outside of the love of God for which it was intended.


    It amazes me that people do not see this.


    Do we not realize that in the granting of life God will not grant life to those who see it as a freedom of choice to not live by his everlasting law of love?


     
  6. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    2
    We all believe that it is impossible for God to lie. Indeed it is impossible for God to sin. That is why He is called holy, holy, holy.

    Surely we know that is not speaking about His being incapable of choosing to do so. It must be then that it is too contrary to who He is and what He in His vast wisdom and love for righteousness chooses as right for Him to do.

    We are made in His image. His purpose for us is that we love righteousness as He does so that unrighteousness ultimately becomes as impossible for us as it is for Him. It is that condition in us that He will bless with immortality.

    For us that means that we must see it as freedom to lean on and obey His every word. For us that means that we see nothing else as freedom.

    If we give our 16 year old son the car to drive he and his friends around sight seeing, does that mean that we gave our son the freedom to take our car out and violate the traffic safety laws with it and perhaps kill he and his friends or even just destroy the car? No, it does not.

    It means that we gave our 16 year old son the freedom to demonstrate his responsibleness because we trusted him to be responsible. We love our sons and desire that they be able to enjoy a certain measure of freedom in faith of our trust in them.

    If our son takes that car and abuses the trust of freedom we lovingly accord him, we did not accord him freedom for that purpose. He wrongly ceased that measure of freedom to himself thus abusing our trust in him.

    Many in this world, due to a lack of godly practice which causes them to struggle to be capable of reasoning, see God as at fault for the bad that we suffer. And our poorly thought out way of presenting this idea of "free will" only reinforces their confusion.

    For the sake of not stumbling these little ones we must correct our perspective of this subject.
     
  7. Disciple

    Disciple Soldiers United 4 Christ

    Messages:
    406
    Likes Received:
    9
    Could you go out and sin if you desired to?
    yes. This is what free will is.
     
  8. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    2
    Our prayer to God is, "Let YOUR will be done." No where in the Bible can you show me where it says, "Let our (man's) will be done."

    The harm comes in that many claim God gave man free will so that man could either be obedient to him or choose to sin. That is a lie and a maligning of God, for God gave us freedom only to love in His image.

    To do a thing is not free will or a free choice just because we have the ability to do it. It is seized will and a seized choice when it goes against God's will.

    What is free about it if I would be punished for doing it?

    Its not free because the price i pay for it is my punishment.

    Adam paid with death for using his choice the way he did, and that is not free.

    We do not pay anything for something if it is free.

    The only thing that is free for us to do is accept God's grace and walk in God's love. Only that does not hurt us but instead helps us.

    This is so simple little children see it.

    Would you rather just keep letting people who do not yet know God believe that it is God's fault because he allowed us the freedom to sin? If you let your child do wrong then you are guilty along with your child. You are therefore tried in our courts as endangering your child. It is only simple sense.

    Or would you rather help people see that the fault is our own and God never gave us freedom to use in such a way?

    Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation."

    In my previous posts above I used the word "ceased" in places that I meant "seized".
     
  9. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    2
    Philippians chapter 2 and verses 5 thru 8

    There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth upon these words of truth that I will here speak. Some will gnash their teeth at me claiming I am the haughty one for staunchly standing firm in what I absolutely know is the Holy Spirit's teaching of the matter. But I am not speaking to fill seats with men to supply donations of money. I am not speaking to try to be popular among you. I could care less about being popular among you as compared to faithfully serving the Lord and obeying him in the Holy Spirit.

    Do not be puzzled at such burning among you, for, it must be, 1 Corinthians 11:19 “For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.”

    It is the pure word of God untangled in the hearts of the true “sons of the kingdom” that shines as the sun and sets the bundles to burning for the purpose of making “manifest among you” the genuine wheat who have been merely sincerely hindered of the tares.

    Matthew 13:43 “Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”

    Revelation 3:22 “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    I ascribe to the exegesis of Philippians 2: 5-8 as above from the American Standard Version Bible. My concern is not to speak popular words among you, but to speak as the Spirit compels in words of simple truth as to babes hungering to understand.

    This is not because I desire to push or debate Jesus’ identity as to whether he is only “the Son of God” or “equal with God” and thus God his self. If my discussion in some way steps on your toes as regards the debate of the Trinity or not the Trinity, suck up your pride and discipline yourself to focus on the real point here being made. Thus so demonstrate that you do not burn because you are not a tare.

    I believe that the sloppy translation the King James Version uses of this passage of scripture, as it does also in other places, whittles away important details of understanding. I am therefore here going to begin with quoting from the American Standard Version.

    Let’s now consider Philippians 2:5-8:

    5 “Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

    7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;

    8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.”

    (American Standard Version - Philippians 2:5-8)

    In these words at Philippians 2:5-8 there is something very important for us to learn about the nature of Satan’s sin, Adam’s sin, and all mankind’s sin, in contrast to Jesus’ use of his own will.

    Let’s look at the more literal breakdown of the wording of verse 6 for a moment:

    [1] “who in form of God existing” (KJV – “Who, being in the form of God”)

    [2] “not grasping considered” (KJV – “thought it not robbery”)

    [3] “the to be equal to God” (KJV – “to be equal with God”)

    Amidst the wicked debating as to whether this verse does or does not support a Trinity doctrine, the principal import of the statement has been buried to many.

    The principal import is that we can have this same mind in us as was also in Christ Jesus. Philippians 2:5 “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.”

    I dare to say only a fool would claim that these verses are telling us that we ought to not consider it robbery for us to be equal to God. That then cannot be the point in verse 6. So what is the point that is being expressed in verse 6?


    The principal thought must be centered on the phrase, “not grasping considered”.


    Indeed verse 7 verifies this, contrasting it to, Philippians 2:7 “But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.”

    Verses 8 and 9 then go on to show us that Jesus carried this marvelous example of humility toward God and obedience to God, which we are capable of copying, all the way to death in the flesh.

    We thus see in a pronounced way in this passage of scripture, the application of, 1 Peter 5:6 “Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time.”

    Paul’s mind-set ought to never be forgotten, that he always spoke in a way so as to try to take away occasion from those who sought in their subtle pride and worship of self-intelligence to try and be as Paul and other true ministers of Christ: 2 Corinthians 11:12 “But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.”

    It is really quite evident that Paul’s mind-set in Philippians 2:5-8 is the contrast between Christ’s humble use of his will to obediently serve his Father as opposed to the prideful and wrong use of will by Satan and Adam to seize at (grasp at) equality with God. And that is essential for us to see as that is what we need to imitate of Christ.


    To the teeth gnashing let me inform you that I am fully capable of meeting your discussions based intelligence of rules of translation but choose to speak at the level the holy spirit also speaks to the meek little children. Your intellectual muscle flexing does not serve these little ones. It does not even serve you but to confuse you.

    Let the sun shine its heat that the wheat and the tares become ever more distinguishable until the Lord does away with all who refuse to humble themselves.

    When one humbly thinks about it, this discussion directly impacts the subject of the measure of freedom of will God gave us and how we are to properly use it.



    Let us not be high-minded but humble.


     
Loading...