Is this good for Christianity?

[Justadude]

Since I joined CB I've been rather taken aback by much of what I've read here. I realize most forums and message boards get their share of weirdness, but it appears to be particularly pervasive here. Specifically I've seen a surprising amount of anti-science and anti-intellectualism (the pandemic, evolution, climate change, to name a few), irrational hatred and fear of LGBTQs, wild-eyed conspiracy theories, and anger at even fellow Christians who don't believe the right things or have the right kind of faith.

Assuming the people espousing those views are about as eager to share and express them in person as they are here, I got to wondering if it's having, or will have, an effect on the state of Christianity in the world.

Most of us realize that Christianity is in decline in the developed world. In the US and Europe, the decline has been particularly stark. Will tying Christianity to the beliefs and attitudes named above further that decline? Will regular people increasingly associate Christianity with those things, and as a result reject the faith because they don't want to be lumped in with people holding those views?

And maybe the biggest question for the Christians here: Do you think promoting and spreading those things under the banner of Christianity is gaining converts, or is it driving people away?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Christianity isn't a hive-mind. Christians are a bunch of individuals, and each person can only speak & do things for themselves.

Some individuals do/think/say weird stuff, stuff other individuals disagree with, or some even wrong. But I can't police what "Steve" says, nor should I.

If some other person comes on here with the preconception that Christianity is a hive mind and just wants to lump folks into one stereotype, they certainly can do so. Doesn't make it automatically right (in fact i think any stereotyping is wrong), but they are free to do so.

 

[Episkopos]

Do you think promoting and spreading those things under the banner of Christianity is gaining converts, or is it driving people away?

Good question. It becomes very hard to distinguish what is of value and truthful ...with what is just a religious preference.

But one must also add in into the mix the prejudice of a very fallen humanity that judges very selfishly against anything that might curtail it's own perverted sense of freedom and rightness. So then the world is always going to hell in a handbasket....but is the church having any kind of braking effect?

So I see this as a mixed bag. The world can't tell the difference between what is religious and what is eternal. And there isn't a lot of care about that. People want what they want. Our disinterested spoiled attitude in these overfed societies trumps or precludes any other outcome...or so it seems.

 

[Justadude]

Good question. It becomes very hard to distinguish what is of value and truthful ...with what is just a religious preference.

The people who believe those things frequently insist they are from God and his word, and therefore anyone who doesn't believe them is calling God a liar.

But one must also add in into the mix the prejudice of a very fallen humanity that judges very selfishly against anything that might curtail it's own perverted sense of freedom and rightness. So then the world is always going to hell in a handbasket....but is the church having any kind of braking effect?

That's another thing I see that may be impacting the status of Christianity; this whole belief that the world sucks, is getting worse, and will continue to decline until the end times happens and Jesus finally decides to set everything right.

So I see this as a mixed bag. The world can't tell the difference between what is religious and what is eternal. And there isn't a lot of care about that. People want what they want. Our disinterested spoiled attitude in these overfed societies trumps or precludes any other outcome...or so it seems.

It looks to me like a lot of Christians think their beliefs are eternal, and everyone who disagrees is some sort of heretic promoting either their own personal religion or even furthering the cause of Satan.

From the outside, it just looks like y'all are making things up as you go along.

 

[Enoch111]

Will regular people increasingly associate Christianity with those things, and as a result reject the faith because they don't want to be lumped in with people holding those views?

You should be more concerned about whether people will believe the Gospel and be saved. It is not about Christianity (which includes all of Christendom) but about Christ. What He accomplish for YOUR personal redemption in His death, burial, and resurrection.

Everything else is secondary. But since you are an agnostic, you probably believe that you do not need Christ. And that is the real issue.

Furthermore, all views expressed here must either conform to the Bible or be disregarded. So for example if evolution is not found in the Bible, it has no place among Christians. If the Bible condemns homosexuality, it cannot be condoned by Christians.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Since I joined CB I've been rather taken aback by much of what I've read here. I realize most forums and message boards get their share of weirdness, but it appears to be particularly pervasive here. Specifically I've seen a surprising amount of anti-science and anti-intellectualism (the pandemic, evolution, climate change, to name a few), irrational hatred and fear of LGBTQs, wild-eyed conspiracy theories, and anger at even fellow Christians who don't believe the right things or have the right kind of faith.

Assuming the people espousing those views are about as eager to share and express them in person as they are here, I got to wondering if it's having, or will have, an effect on the state of Christianity in the world.

Most of us realize that Christianity is in decline in the developed world. In the US and Europe, the decline has been particularly stark. Will tying Christianity to the beliefs and attitudes named above further that decline? Will regular people increasingly associate Christianity with those things, and as a result reject the faith because they don't want to be lumped in with people holding those views?

And maybe the biggest question for the Christians here: Do you think promoting and spreading those things under the banner of Christianity is gaining converts, or is it driving people away?

Richard Dawkins, a prominent atheist, believes that if Christians don't get back to actually believing the literal text of their own Bible, Christianity will be dead in two or three generations.

Therefore the problem is not what is happening outside of the church, but within the church itself with evolution, liberal, and humanist teaching which is undermining the authority of the Bible for the younger generations, who are deserting the churches in droves.

 

[Justadude]

You should be more concerned about whether people will believe the Gospel and be saved. It is not about Christianity (which includes all of Christendom) but about Christ. What He accomplish for YOUR personal redemption in His death, burial, and resurrection.

Everything else is secondary. But since you are an agnostic, you probably believe that you do not need Christ. And that is the real issue.

Correct. I am not a Christian so I do not believe in what you describe.

Furthermore, all views expressed here must either conform to the Bible or be disregarded.

There's quite a bit of diversity of opinions here as to what conforms to the Bible.

So for example if evolution is not found in the Bible, it has no place among Christians.

Cars and airplanes aren't found in the Bible either, yet I'd bet you and lots of other Christians use them.

If the Bible condemns homosexuality, it cannot be condoned by Christians.

The Bible condemns lots of things I'd bet you do.

But all of that is besides the point of the thread.

 

[Justadude]

Richard Dawkins, a prominent atheist, believes that if Christians don't get back to actually believing the literal text of their own Bible, Christianity will be dead in two or three generations.

Citation please.

Therefore the problem is not what is happening outside of the church, but within the church itself with evolution, liberal, and humanist teaching which is undermining the authority of the Bible for the younger generations, who are deserting the churches in droves.

Your response to young people leaving Christianity is to double down on anti-science teaching? And what "liberal and humanist teachings" are you referring to?

 

[Paul Christensen]

Citation please.


Your response to young people leaving Christianity is to double down on anti-science teaching? And what "liberal and humanist teachings" are you referring to?

1. I got that from a quote by Richard Dawkins in a video of a message by Ken Ham on the Answers in Genesis set of Youtube videos. I can't direct you to the actual message or video, but if you genuinely want to know, you can go to Youtube and view the video messages about the problems resulting from the teaching of evolution in Sunday schools and Bible classes, for yourself.

2. Liberal and Humanist teaching is invading the churches. I am attending a Union church and have heard preaching that is more about improving us as people than teaching what the Bible actually says. One examine is the last message I heard from the minister concerning the Samaritan woman at the well in which he says that Jesus meant that the living water He told her about was for the healing of racism throughout the world and making us better human beings, which is liberal humanism. Every religious studies departments in our major universities and colleges, as well as many seminaries are teaching this - about the sole purpose of Jesus coming was to perfect the creation and make us more perfect people, totally ignoring the principles of the true gospel of Christ.

Teaching operational science, ie: how things in our world and the cosmos actually works is not anti-Bible; in fact, it supports the Bible. The same goes with historical science, which is made up of historical records, archaeology, fossil records, forensic science. These also support the Bible.

But origin science is not true science because the scientific method of observation and experimentation cannot be used. No one was at the origin of the universe and our world to conduct any scientific observation of what actually took place, and this is an absolute requirement for anything to be scientific in nature. Therefore origin science is based on faith and belief, and people either trust the Biblical record, or evolutionary theory, because both are nothing more than belief systems that people take by faith.

 

[Justadude]

1. I got that from a quote by Richard Dawkins in a video of a message by Ken Ham on the Answers in Genesis set of Youtube videos. I can't direct you to the actual message or video, but if you genuinely want to know, you can go to Youtube and view the video messages about the problems resulting from the teaching of evolution in Sunday schools and Bible classes, for yourself.

If you can't provide the cite there's nothing more to say about it.

2. Liberal and Humanist teaching is invading the churches. I am attending a Union church and have heard preaching that is more about improving us as people than teaching what the Bible actually says. One examine is the last message I heard from the minister concerning the Samaritan woman at the well in which he says that Jesus meant that the living water He told her about was for the healing of racism throughout the world and making us better human beings, which is liberal humanism. Every religious studies departments in our major universities and colleges, as well as many seminaries are teaching this - about the sole purpose of Jesus coming was to perfect the creation and make us more perfect people, totally ignoring the principles of the true gospel of Christ.

Healing racism is liberal humanism and shouldn't be taught in Christian churches? Wow.

Teaching operational science, ie: how things in our world and the cosmos actually works is not anti-Bible; in fact, it supports the Bible. The same goes with historical science, which is made up of historical records, archaeology, fossil records, forensic science. These also support the Bible.

But origin science is not true science because the scientific method of observation and experimentation cannot be used. No one was at the origin of the universe and our world to conduct any scientific observation of what actually took place, and this is an absolute requirement for anything to be scientific in nature. Therefore origin science is based on faith and belief, and people either trust the Biblical record, or evolutionary theory, because both are nothing more than belief systems that people take by faith.

Just about everything you said runs counter to what I've been taught in science classes in both public school and college. It also runs counter to what I've heard from actual scientists and what I read from science resources. Given the choice between going with the consensus of scientists versus just taking your word for it, I'll go with the former every time.

And relative to the topic of this thread, saying the sort of things you say about science above under the banner of Christianity is exactly what I'm talking about. If you think doing that is winning you converts in this day and age, you might want to rethink.

 

[Renniks]

Correct. I am not a Christian so I do not believe in what you describe.


There's quite a bit of diversity of opinions here as to what conforms to the Bible.


Cars and airplanes aren't found in the Bible either, yet I'd bet you and lots of other Christians use them.


The Bible condemns lots of things I'd bet you do.

But all of that is besides the point of the thread.

What is it the keeps bringing you back to a Christian forum?

 

[Enoch111]

What is it the keeps bringing you back to a Christian forum?

He loves his daily dose of annoyance. Keeps the blood flowing.

 

[Paul Christensen]

If you can't provide the cite there's nothing more to say about it.

Well, okay. I believe what he says and that is good enough for me.

Healing racism is liberal humanism and shouldn't be taught in Christian churches? Wow.

I don't know what you are talking about here. I don't believe in racism, because we all come from one set of parents and therefore are of one race. Mankind is made up of different language and cultural groups, and are of different shades of brown, depending on their genetic makeup. It is the evolutionist who supports racism because he believes that there are superior and inferior races, promoting the idea that Africans are inferior because humanity evolved from African apes and that Africans are a step further back in evolution that Caucasians. Therefore, as a Bible-believer, knowing that we are all related in the same human family whether a person has more melanin in his skin making him darker than me who has a lot less, I an not racist at all, and I think that there are only two classes of people - those who are converted to Christ and those who are not.

Just about everything you said runs counter to what I've been taught in science classes in both public school and college. It also runs counter to what I've heard from actual scientists and what I read from science resources. Given the choice between going with the consensus of scientists versus just taking your word for it, I'll go with the former every time.

No surprises there. When I did religious studies at teacher training college in the 1980s, we were taught that we all originated through evolution, that God was not a real person, Jesus didn't really exist, therefore there was no virgin birth or resurrection, and that being Christian was living moral lives, and being kind to others. And that is what many churches are teaching their young members today. Read books by Bishop Spong, an Episcopal bishop and you will see all that teaching there, and his influence is right through the Episcopal, Anglican, Methodist and Presbyterian churches around the world. I went to a lecture at Waikato University in Hamilton NZ where he spoke and I actually met him. You will find his books on the bookcases of many church ministers.

What the church should have been doing instead of siding with the Colleges and Universities, was to teach their young people Biblical apologetics so that they would have Biblical answers to counter the attack on Biblical authority, and to consider that the available evidence better supports what the Bible says than what evolutionists teach. Both use the same evidence by the way, and it is the way the evidence is used to support either foundation.

And relative to the topic of this thread, saying the sort of things you say about science above under the banner of Christianity is exactly what I'm talking about. If you think doing that is winning you converts in this day and age, you might want to rethink.

I am not trying to win converts at all. No one can be converted to Christ until God Himself gives them insight into the gospel and the saving faith to receive Christ. All I can do is to tell folks what I believe is the truth from what I read in the Bible.

True science is established through observation and experimentation. That is the scientific method. Anything outside of what can be observed or as the result of science experiments, is in the realm of faith, whether it be Christian or faith in the theory of evolution.

 

[Justadude]

What is it the keeps bringing you back to a Christian forum?

Good question. I have my own thoughts on that, but for now I'll keep them to myself.

 

[Justadude]

Well, okay. I believe what he says and that is good enough for me.

You believe what Richard Dawkins says? How are you a Christian then?

I don't know what you are talking about here.

You said healing racism was a liberal humanist idea that you objected to having taught in church.

I don't believe in racism, because we all come from one set of parents and therefore are of one race. Mankind is made up of different language and cultural groups, and are of different shades of brown, depending on their genetic makeup. It is the evolutionist who supports racism because he believes that there are superior and inferior races, promoting the idea that Africans are inferior because humanity evolved from African apes and that Africans are a step further back in evolution that Caucasians. Therefore, as a Bible-believer, knowing that we are all related in the same human family whether a person has more melanin in his skin making him darker than me who has a lot less, I an not racist at all, and I think that there are only two classes of people - those who are converted to Christ and those who are not.

The only racism I've seen recently has come from Christians, some right here in this forum.

No surprises there. When I did religious studies at teacher training college in the 1980s, we were taught that we all originated through evolution, that God was not a real person, Jesus didn't really exist, therefore there was no virgin birth or resurrection, and that being Christian was living moral lives, and being kind to others. And that is what many churches are teaching their young members today.

How many churches are teaching that God and Jesus aren't real? Isn't that just atheism?

Read books by Bishop Spong, an Episcopal bishop and you will see all that teaching there, and his influence is right through the Episcopal, Anglican, Methodist and Presbyterian churches around the world. I went to a lecture at Waikato University in Hamilton NZ where he spoke and I actually met him. You will find his books on the bookcases of many church ministers.

Can you quote one saying God and Jesus aren't real?

What the church should have been doing instead of siding with the Colleges and Universities, was to teach their young people Biblical apologetics so that they would have Biblical answers to counter the attack on Biblical authority, and to consider that the available evidence better supports what the Bible says than what evolutionists teach. Both use the same evidence by the way, and it is the way the evidence is used to support either foundation.

You'd better hope they teach better apologetics than some of the anti-science, conspiracy theory, and bigoted nonsense that gets posted here.

I am not trying to win converts at all. No one can be converted to Christ until God Himself gives them insight into the gospel and the saving faith to receive Christ. All I can do is to tell folks what I believe is the truth from what I read in the Bible.

Okay.

True science is established through observation and experimentation. That is the scientific method. Anything outside of what can be observed or as the result of science experiments, is in the realm of faith, whether it be Christian or faith in the theory of evolution.

This is a good example of what I'm talking about. From what I can tell, you have no real education, training, or experience in science. You've also posted here (in the "heresy" thread) that you will always believe what the Bible says over science no matter what and that nothing can ever change your mind. Together, those two things make you both ignorant of science and about as biased as a person can be.

But you talk about science like you're some sort of expert or authority, where everyone should believe what you say about it, for no other reason than that you say so. Plus, the nonsense you posted above runs counter to how science has operated for about 500 years! There hasn't been any scientist or science organization that has ever taken that position or advocated anything like that.

Do you see my point? You know very little about science, you're extremely biased, and the things you say about science are about as wrong as wrong can be, yet you post as if you're the one person in the world everyone should listen to regarding science. Plus, you do all that under the banner of Christianity and tell people they have to agree with you or else they're not Christians. Do you really think that makes Christianity look appealing?

 

[Renniks]

Good question. I have my own thoughts on that, but for now I'll keep them to myself.

Well, it was an honest question... I really want to know.

 

[Dcopymope]

Cars and airplanes aren't found in the Bible either, yet I'd bet you and lots of other Christians use them.

Its not a sin to use something as a means to get from point A to point B within a reasonable amount of time, be it a plane, car, or donkey. You're here talking about Christians supposedly exhibiting "anti-intellectualism", yet here you are using silly arguments like this.

 

[Justadude]

Well, it was an honest question... I really want to know.

I'm effectively surrounded by Christians and Christianity. Just about all my family and friends are Christians, so almost every social situation (outside of work) includes elements of Christianity, such as prayers, references to the Bible, and relevant to this topic, attempts to persuade me to go to church and convert. The problem for me is how in our society, attempts to convert people like me to Christianity are perceived as well-intended, good natured, and for my benefit. Conversely, if I were to debate the subject seriously or, god forbid (HAH), attempt to persuade them to adopt my point of view it would be perceived as rude. IOW, it's not a level playing field. They're free to badger me as much as they like, but I'm not free to do the same. So I usually end up politely listening to their appeals and saying something like "That's interesting" and "I'll think about it".

So I think maybe coming here is a cathartic exercise of sorts, where I get to have discussions and debates with Christian friends and family that I can't have in real life.

 

[Justadude]

Its not a sin to use something as a means to get from point A to point B within a reasonable amount of time, be it a plane, car, or donkey. You're here talking about Christians supposedly exhibiting "anti-intellectualism", yet here you are using silly arguments like this.

Maybe it'd help if you paid better attention to the context in which I said that. Enoch said "if evolution is not found in the Bible, it has no place among Christians", so I applied that reasoning to cars and airplanes to illustrate the absurdity of it.

 

[Dcopymope]

Maybe it'd help if you paid better attention to the context in which I said that. Enoch said "if evolution is not found in the Bible, it has no place among Christians", so I applied that reasoning to cars and airplanes to illustrate the absurdity of it.

What does a car have to do with the belief in the origin of life? Its a silly argument, makes zero sense, not related in the slightest. God doesn't give a kangaroo feces about the former. "Anti-intellectualism".....