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Isaiah 9:6

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by tigger 2, Feb 9, 2020.

  1. tigger 2

    tigger 2 Active Member

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    JBF wrote in another thread here:

    "If Jesus said that He is the Son of God, then He is claiming to be the mighty God; ... and the everlasting Father (...Isaiah 9:6)."

    Is. 9:6 is usually translated in trinitarian-translated Bibles as:

    “For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” - NASB.

    Even most trinitarians do not confuse the two separate persons of the Father and the Son. They do not say the Son is the Father. They say the Father and the Son are two separate individual persons who are equally “God”!

    Therefore, since we obviously cannot take “Eternal Father” in the literal sense to mean that Jesus is the Father or may be called the Father, we cannot take the rest of that same name (esp. ‘Mighty God’) in its literal highest sense and say that Jesus is Mighty God, etc., either.

    So what is really intended at Is. 9:6?

    One interesting fact is that the meaning of many personal names of Israelites were meant as a praise or description of God alone - not a description of themselves.

    JEHU - ‘Jehovah is he.’


    (1.) The son of Obed, and father of Azariah (1 Chronicles 2:38).

    (2.) One of the Benjamite slingers that joined David at Ziklag (1 Chronicles 12:3).

    (3.) The son of Hanani, a prophet of Judah (1 Kings 16:1, 7; 2 Chronicles 19:2; 20:34), who pronounced the sentence of God against Baasha, the king of Israel.

    (4.) King of Israel, the son of Jehoshaphat (2 Kings 9:2), and grandson of Nimshi.” - Easton’s Bible Dictionary, ‘Jehu,’ from Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Thomas Nelson Publ. (Also p. 331, Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, Bethany House, 1982.)

    So four different men, worshipers of the one true God, Jehovah, were named ‘He is Jehovah’ in the Holy Scriptures! This popular Israelite name obviously was not intended to describe the person who bore it!

    “Now Malchiel means ‘God is king,’ ... Gedaliah ‘Jehovah is great,’ Zerahiah ‘Jehovah hath risen in splendor,’ Jehozadak ‘Jehovah is righteous,’ and Joel, if a compound name, ‘Jehovah is God.’ A moment’s reflection makes clear that these names do not describe the persons who bear them, but in every case speak of God. ....

    "[Early in the 9th century B.C.] .... it was conventional for the king of Judah to have for his name a sentence with Jehovah as its subject. .... During the five centuries and a half, beginning near the close of Solomon’s reign and extending to the end of Nehemiah’s administration, 22 high priests held office, so far as their names have been preserved in the records. Of these pontiffs 17 bear names which are sentences with Jehovah as subject, and another is a sentence with El [God] as subject. .... evidently the priests of Jehovah’s temple at Jerusalem not only recognized the appropriateness for themselves and their families of names possessing a general religious character, but came to favor such as expressly mentioned God, especially those which mentioned God by His name of Jehovah.” - p. 2115, Vol. 3, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Eerdmans, 1984 printing.




    Another important detail about personal names is that those names composed of more than one Hebrew word (e.g., Immanuel; Isaiah; Michael; Jehoshabeath; etc.) is that minor words such as prepositions ('of',' 'in,' 'with', 'on,' etc.) and some verbs such as 'is,' 'are,' etc. are omitted.

    For instance, two of the best-known Bible concordances (Young’s and Strong’s) and a popular trinitarian Bible dictionary (Today’s Dictionary of the Bible) differ on the exact meaning of many Biblical personal names because of those “minor” words which must be added to bring out the intended meaning.

    Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name “Elimelech” (which is literally just “God King”) means “God of (the) King.” Young’s Analytical Concordance says it means “God is King.” Today’s Dictionary of the Bible says it means “ God his King” - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982. And an online meaning is given as “My God is the King.” - http://www.kveller.com/jewish_names/display.php?n=Elimelech&k=840 .


    I haven’t found any scholar/translator who says the name of Elimelech should be translated with its literal meaning of “God King.” And no scholar ever translates it to mean that Elimelech himself was "God King."

    Those missing minor words that the translator must supply at his own discretion can often make a vital difference! - For example, the footnote for Gen. 17:5 in The NIV Study Bible: The name ‘Abram’ “means ‘Exalted Father,’ probably in reference to God (i.e., ‘[God is the] Exalted Father’).” - bracketed information is in the original.

    But perhaps most instructive of all is the name given to the prophet’s child in Isaiah 8:3 shortly before his giving the name found in Is. 9:6.

    Is. 8:3

    Maher-shalal-hash-baz: Literally, “spoil speeds prey hastes” or “swift booty speedy prey.” Translated by various Bible scholars as: “In making speed to the spoil he hasteneth the prey” - - “swift [is] booty, speedy [is] prey” - - “the spoil speeded, the prey hasteth” - - “Speeding for spoil, hastening for plunder” - - “There will soon be looting and stealing”- - “Speeding is the spoil, Hastening is the prey” - - “The Looting Will Come Quickly; the Prey Will Be Easy” - - “Take sway the spoils with speed, quickly take the prey” - - “Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey” - - “Swift the Spoils of War and Speedy Comes the Attacker” - - “Make haste to plunder! Hurry to the spoil!” - - “Make haste to the spoil; fall upon the prey.” - - “Your enemies will soon be destroyed.’” - TLB. - -They hurry to get what they can. They run to pick up what is left.” - NLV.



    And trinitarian John Gill wrote:

    “‘hasten to seize the prey, and to take away the spoil.’ Some translate it, ‘in hastening the prey, the spoiler hastens’; perhaps it may be better rendered, ‘hasten to the spoil, hasten to the prey.’”

    Therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated in the footnote as:

    “And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.)

    to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

    The Leeser Bible also translates it:

    “Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

    Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith & Goodspeed) says:

    “Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

    From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:


    ".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"

    Of course it could also be honestly translated:

    “The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.”

    And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

    [1] “The Mighty God is planning grace;


    [2] The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

    This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz” means [a]“quick to the plunder; swift to the spoil” - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: [a]“For unto us a child is born; unto us a son is given.” It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

    So it is clear, even to a few trinitarian scholars, that Is. 9:6 does not necessarily imply that Jesus is Jehovah God.

    - from my personal study:

    http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2010/01/name.html
     
  2. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I hold to the kjv, which calls Him the everlasting Father.

    No; distinct not separate is what the creeds indicate to us.

    We can indeed see it to mean that if we take into account John 4:23-24 coupled with John 14:7-11.

    Nevertheless, in Isaiah 9:6, the fact that the son who is given shall have His name be called among other things the mighty God and the everlasting Father is indeed a description of who He is.

    I choose to believe that Jesus is God because it is too clear to me that in John 8:24, Jesus makes believing in His Deity an essential for salvation.

    Everyone else is free to make the decision to take their chances on eternity and deny Christ's Deity; but I believe that the scriptures declare plainly that they will die in their sins for having done so.

    I may not be able to contend on this thread for very long as I am moving soon and may not have internet access where I am going.

    So let not my silence on the matter be misconstrued as agreement or lack of an ability to logically answer the arguments of those who are in opposition to the truth on this matter.
     
  3. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    Jesus, the second person of the Trinity is not God the Father, but he is equally God, he is so identified with God the Father in that he does everything and only everything hat the Father commands that he is almost indistinguishable from God the Father.
    Who is it that creates, who is it who will judge, who is it who has ultimate authority.
    In every case it is Jesus.
     
  4. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    The Father dwells in Jesus and He in the Father.

    I do believe that the Father is the Spirit who dwells in the person of Jesus Christ, making Jesus' Spirit the Father (see John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11).
     
  5. DNB

    DNB Active Member

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    Good point tigger! I typically am against splitting hairs over words to establish a doctrine, it usually means that one has missed the entire context of the passage. But the opposite is true when it comes to the doctrine of the trinity. All the triune exegetes take isolated passages to prove the point, because there are no didactic or explicit verses to support their claim. Thus, it is necessary to employ etymology to the individual words in theses cases. ...actually, not entirely true, just the fact that the verses are isolated, and the context does not corroborate their exegesis, is undermining enough.
    All the same, your exegesis is valid, for their is not a single trinitarian in history that would ever make the mistake of calling the son, the father, like Isaiah did in this verse. For, according to trinitarian theology, this is only thing that separates the trinity, their names, and absolutely nothing else, for each one is perfectly, and faultlessly god.
    Very sound and comprehensive insight tigger!
     
    tigger 2 likes this.
  6. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    That is incorrect. It is crystal clear that Isaiah 9:6 is speaking about the one who was born as a babe in a manger who became a child, and then a man. So all those titles belong to Christ Jesus, and He is indeed Almighty God. So in what sense is He "the everlasting Father" [אֲבִיעַ֖ד (’ă-ḇî-‘aḏ) = perpetuity]* (as opposed to God the Father)?

    Several commentators have tried to explain this. The everlasting Father has also been understood as "the Father of eternity" and relates to the eternal Kingdom and government of Christ -- a loving and protecting government for ever.
     
  7. DNB

    DNB Active Member

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    Yes, it is a Messianic prophecy for sure, but grammatically, the details about his reign is where the question or ambiguity lies.
    Because there is only one thing that separates one person of the trinity, from the other, no one would ever make that mistake by calling the Son, the Father.
    Plus, grammatically, which is more a stretch to conclude, something as implausible, unfathomable and nonsensical as God became man, and was then then abused, mocked and killed by his own creation, or the viable translations that trigger offered?

    Therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated in the footnote as:
    “And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.)
    to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.
    The Leeser Bible also translates it:
    “Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”
    Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith & Goodspeed) says:
    “Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”
    From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:
    ".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"
    Of course it could also be honestly translated:
    “The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.”
     
  8. tigger 2

    tigger 2 Active Member

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    JBF wrote: "I hold to the kjv, which calls Him the everlasting Father."
    ......................
    The KJV says "his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor...." (not "he will be Wonderul Counsellor....").

    As clearly shown in the OP, personal names in scripture are frequently intended to praise or describe God Himself (not the individual bearing that name!).

    Even Jesus' personal name meant 'Jehovah is a/the Savior.' And, yes, there are other men in the Scriptures with the same name or names with similar meanings.

    Since JBF is so sold on the old KJV, he must also insist that the only personal name of God is JEHOVAH. (Ps. 83:18, KJV)
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020 at 11:02 PM
  9. tigger 2

    tigger 2 Active Member

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    Ps. 83:18 - That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth. - KJV.
     
  10. tigger 2

    tigger 2 Active Member

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    Is. 64:8 - But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand. - ASV.
     
  11. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    In the sence that they are united in purpose, otherwise God the Father is a distinct personality, character etc separate from God the Son and God the Spirit.
     
  12. tigger 2

    tigger 2 Active Member

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    John 17:1, 3 - "Father, .... this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. KJV.
     
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