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Israel and Predestination

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by epouraniois, Apr 14, 2007.

  1. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    http://www.hourofthetime.com/Hour_of_the_T...4C692EA53F.htmlnow there ARE letters which have the names of ALL NATIONS on the envelope. but people only use verses from THOSE letters when they need some support from another of God's several administrations. in the letters written after Acts, Israel's dispensation is set aside, the people of Israel became just another nation, no longer preeminent, no longer has God been working with His people Israel. Instead, the apostle is to reveal a new thing, a new creation, the old was past away, or held in suspention until God will administer to THEM. So when we read in Tim, that there are people chosen before the world began, Israel is absent, Abraham is absent, Jacob is absent. And while it is true that God knew us before we were in the womb, the times and people chosen are different, their sphere of blessing is different, their hopes are different, their callings are different.And this choosing is weighed against those who were chosen since the foundation of the world. These are God's words.The remnant of Israel was not chosen 'before the foundation of the world', they were chosen with, or in, Israel, who was chosen FROM', since, or after, 'the foundation of the world', see Matt 25, Gen. 10-12, &c.These are different times of choosing, and do reference different administrations of God's outworking.Prove me wrong!!!* ‘The earth’ (Matt. 5:5)The Kingdom* ‘Jerusalem which is above’ (Gal. 4:26)The Bride* ‘In heavenly places’ (Eph. 1:3)The Body
     
  2. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    what does that even have to do with Easter and Ishtar the link has nothing to do with the post sounds like you are still pushing your replacment doctrine which is contrary to Gods plan I could better debate this if I had a clue what you are saying. What good does it do to talk words god or yours when you can not be understood what point you are making.
     
  3. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    I didn't name the man's article, I just gave it as it was already named. replacement what? what are you even talking about? I don't think I should have to defend myself when we are talking about Scripture. Scripture either says what it says or it doesn't. So when I incorrectly, pick me up, but don't try to knock me down when I quote something unfamiliar, rather, ask me to explain it better, because I am weak, I fall down and need to be helped back up just like everyone else.God said that His Truth be 'rightly' divided. Don't you think that it can, therefore, be wrongly divided? In Rev. we learn that there will be many who say they are Jews, but they lie. Thes.'s says God will send strong delusion to those who do not have a love for the truth. What was revealed to my 'teachers/pastors', may have been truth for that day, but we must know that God continues to reveal. That one who refuses to accept further revelation will be stuck with the old, and will say 'the old is better'. And those who can only parrot what the teachers who refuse further revealation may have difficulty believing ALL THAT IS WRITTEN. This is a major problem for us all, even when a certain pastor has helped us to get what truth they had to share, it never means that pastor knows ALL TRUTH, but was an instrument to help us get to a place where we can also be revealed to by the Lord Himself. We want to support those teachers who helped us, but sometimes we need to move on for the further revealing from the Lord. Paul says he was given further revealtion. Is it not true?Teachers are really only suited for getting us started, and not suited to replace what might be awaiting further revelation. This is not to say that the teachers so held back are corrupt, just that we are to be grateful for the help in which they were able to help us get to a place where the Lord can work with us Himself. These things are things Paul talks about after Acts 28:28.These are the things given to Paul for all nations, which, according to Scripture, will be received. Why is it then, that not all are able to receive it?What is TRUTH? Can we then (are we capable) receive ALL TRUTH? Or only the truth as it extends to Israel?I believe the people HERE do have a LOVE FOR THE TRUTH, so post some things which, Peter even says of Paul, are hard to understand.It gets a bit more complex than that though, but we must start somewhere. This is TRUTH ~ in the Bible we should learn to 'yield', not to our teachers on earth, but to that which is written, to the Lord.So ~Can mixing every together, ignoring who was written what, possibly be the same as rightly dividing the Word of Truth?What has God divided? What is different? One thing is that during Acts they looked for the 'coming' of Christ, but after Acts, it is the 'appearing' 'with', where and when Christ appears, which is hoped for. These things are DIFFERENT. The coming has to do with Christ and His sphere of blessings to the earthly people, while the appearing has to do with Christ and the people to whom the the heavenly places are revealed as the sphere of blessings.These are but the beginnings of differences, in fact, there is NOTHING that is the same (except for the need of a saviour who is Christ). Paul cannot even quote the OT in the letters given after Acts concluded ~ because he is given a new revelation. Therefore, Paul cannot quote the OT when revealing this 'mystery' which was 'hid in God'. EVERYTHING IS DIFFERENT, according to Paul.We are instructed to try the things that are different. Well, at least those to whom pertain the adoption into the heavenly places are instructed to test these differences. I have provided verse upon verse, in context upon context, have I not? So what is it that is so difficult? Acts 28:28 is THE DIVIDING LINE. Read it!!!God has administrations. The Bible calls these administrations STEWARDSHIPS, elsewhere translated DISPENSATIONS. The one of promise is for and to Israel. Gentiles have no Scripture 'promises', no covenants with God. The OT promises have to do with Israel, but not even all Israel is Israel, see Rom. 11 and 9 to find out who 'all Israel' even is.Clearly, God did not come. Israel has been set aside. Something changed. Something is different. Paul says a new administration now prevails. One that was hid and called 'the mystery' but now is made known (now=after Acts concludes Israel in blindness). Can we not acknowledge these basic truths.At the end of Acts Paul was given to fulfill Acts 26, setting the OT entirely aside, explains that 'the mystery' is a 'new creation', wherein we find he would be (Acts 26) later revealed and instructed in something that he refers to as 'the mystery'. Are we to say to the potter that He cannot have had a secret? That He cannot reveal this secret after Israel is determined to blindness and hardness of heart? Who has the authority anyways? Is it not our Lord?look it up in the CB appendixes, Bullinger was well aware of it, and Paul says of it, that it was hid, not only in God, but from ages and from generations, but it is not a secret anymore, because God has revealed it.What is it?Paul says it was not revealed in the OT, but hid in God, and now made known.Is Paul lying when he writes that this mystery is for gentiles, was hid from ages of time and from generations of man but is now being made know? Of course Paul is not lying, not even exaggerating, he is an inspired apostle of God.Don't you want to know what God had kept hidden since the world began? Whatever it may be, it is connected to a church called 'His body'. It is NOT connected to Israel. It is connected to Christ Himself, has a blessing different than that of Israel, is in Heavenly places far above all heavens of heavens (en tois epouraniois).Don't take my word for it. Search it out and see. Ask me for help.I am here to help in this.What are the requirements for this calling and choosing? Paul says it is Christ's choosing in Ephesians. Many are not called into this choosing, many will not be able to acknowledge this choosing and this 'high calling', but Paul did, and when he did, he then counted all that he held dear as but refuse.That is what is written. That is what I must believe.Paul gives the instruction to 'rightly divide the word of truth' to the church which is His body.This church is connected to the head. Israel is not connected to the head. Not once do we find anything like that for her. Israel has an earthly inheritance, and the overcomers connected with her are likened to a bride.Not so for the church revealed after Acts. Not so is the church which is His body ever connected to faithful Abraham, Israel, or any such thing.Period. And you or anyone can NEVER find anything in the epistles written after Acts historically closes will connect the church being revealed there, to Israel, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, the heavenly city, the bride, the wife, or any such thing.Why? Because, as the apostle states, he is revealing a mystery which was hid in God, hid from ages and from generations.If you are not interested in that portion of Scripture written after Acts had historically closed with Israel in her blindness, then this probably means that you are not called into the 'high calling' which is revealed thereafter.There is nothing wrong with not being called into the church which is His body, nothing wrong at all, but I am here to share the FACT that Paul did write of another hope and calling which has nothing to do with Israel whatsoever ~ just in case there are some here that might be able to acknowledge what is given as instruction to that church which is to set their affections on things above and not on the earth.I am here for THEM mostly, but am well able to serve all those who are called into John 3:16 as well.The Bible does not reveal that all are called into the same calling, nor that all have the same hope and sphere of blessing. We not only have the wife, but we have a bride, and we have a full grown husband in Ephesians (aner), not to mention the 'blessed guests'. Who are all these different companies the Bible is revealing? Again, please refer to my sig for the delineation of the three corresponding adoptions in their peculiar sphere of blessing ~* ‘The earth’ (Matt. 5:5)The Kingdom* ‘Jerusalem which is above’ (Gal. 4:26)The Bride* ‘In heavenly places’ (Eph. 1:3)The Body
     
  4. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I understand rightly dividing the word have read Bullinger I just don't agree with your conclusions.
     
  5. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    it isn't my conclusions, it is Paul's.Paul says clearly he is revealing something which was hid from generations and from ages. That seems pretty straightforward to me, how 'bout you? Is that confusing at all? Paul calls this a 'revelation'. Is that confusing at all?this revelation is called, according to Paul, 'the mystery'.it has to do with a church which is so intimately connected to Christ, it is connected as head is to body. it is not the same connection as that of husband and wife.If you don't agree, then do some homework and get back to me. All you need to do (if you think Paul teaches nothing new and to no new body of believers is being revealed, and that Christ is not risen far above all heavens where this new company has it's blessings) is to list the things that are the same. The dividing line is Acts 28:28.Simply list the things that are the same after that verse, with the things that are the same before that verse.No one has yet to list them, even though it is a short short list indeed. Instead, they attack me for showing them what Paul has written about these different callings.Surely you know the difference between the earth, the heavenly city, and the heavens far above all heavens of heavens?Yes, you know. You just have not realized that Paul was given something new, but Paul did use the word 'create' to describe what Christ has done in regards to "the church which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all", saying the time of choosing was different, the adoption is different, the calling and hope is different, even the places of enjoyment in resurrection is different.It is specifically stated that the contrast is 'before the foundation of the world' and 'from the foundation of the world'. Just look it up, we all can do this if we want truth. And we do want truth, don't we?So if you are disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with Paul, and Paul got it straight from the risen Christ. And I see this allot, that people cannot readily be moved from their place into the sphere of blessing where Christ already sees us in, and we find in the letters written after Acts, that that place is not on earth, not in the heavenly Jerusalem, but far above all, seated with Christ there.That is what is written, that is what I must believe. Again, don't just accuse me, don't say you don't believe it, prove me wrong. Make the list. It won't take much time, because nothing is the same. PAUL CANNOT EVEN QUOTE SCRIPTURE WHEN REVEALING THE MYSTERY, and Paul was a bigtime quoter of Scripture up and until Paul was given to reveal 'the mystery'.In fact, there is not one word in all of Scripture about any called out company having blessings in heavenly places and seated with Christ there until after Acts. That is a fact.Prove me wrong, and I will listen to you. But if you can't, may we study this great subject further?What does the apostle say about it? Well, for one thing, Paul says of this mystery, that it was given to him for you, 'to complete the word of God'.What are you going to do with that? Surely you must acknowledge it to be TRUTH?Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill (COMPLETE) the word of GodCol 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: Paul is speaking of the same 'the mystery' which he has been revealing since Ephesians 1, and how do we know this? Because this is but another one of those letters written after Acts. It is one of those letters written to all nations, to gentiles, or, nations. It is not written to Israel, not about Israel, but about Christ and His choosing of a people which had never been revealed before, but is given to the apostle 'now', after Acts, to reveal it to YOU.Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit* ‘The earth’ (Matt. 5:5)The Kingdom* ‘Jerusalem which is above’ (Gal. 4:26)The Bride* ‘In heavenly places’ (Eph. 1:3)The Body
     
  6. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I do not argue that the time of grace/gentiles had been issued in that the Jews were/are under stupor. I agree that all was different that law of grace never existed since the foundations. But the only mystery I see here is that of Christ which was in the works sense the beginning but was not truly understood by the Jews. I do not argue with what Paul says only your understanding of what he says.I understand that Christ fulfilled many of the ordinances, but he came not to change the law. I still do not get where you come up with that the OT was set aside. Only some parts were rendered no longer necessary (Ex: the sacrificial lamb)Mat.24 ,Mark 13 both quote Daniel of the OT making ref. to future events why would Christ quote from a book that was no longer in effect.I agree Paul was sent unto the gentiles that the NT reveals the mystery of Christ that the Jews did not accept nor understand. But nowhere does it claim the OT was set aside. In fact the NT has revealed the OT which was much concealed and vise versa. For example we could not fully understand the significance Jonah in the whales belly three days until after the Resurrection. There are many mysteries in the NT that can not be fully understood without understanding the foundations of the mysteries in the OT.Among these are the book of Isa. dry bones, the joining of the two sticks,making up the final body (church).Also,the idenity of the sons of Cain(kenites) as I said there are many things in the NT that are only made fully clear without the OT.These are just a few examples of thousands that prove exactly the opposite to be true.The OT is as necessary as the NT
     
  7. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    Excellent. I just got back from a walk on the beach, and realized I made a judgment when that is wrong. Please forgive me for saying you are not disagreeing/me, but with Paul. I should never jump the gun, esp when speaking with one willing to search and see. We have a conversation now, a beginning point.
    But the only mystery I see here is that of Christ which was in the works sense the beginning but was not truly understood by the Jews.
    Paul speaks of 'before (LXX=overthrow) the foundation of the world. He is to reveal something 'hid in God'. Paul is not, after Acts, revealing an old thing, something that had been previously made know (but an entirely new creation-Eph.2:15). Paul is not going to expand on that which they already new, but even address' this to gentiles. Paul is going to build upon, or on top of, that foundation; will quote later,Nevertheless, if what you reference wasn't understood by the Jews, then it wasn't understood by anybody, I mean, who else would understand it, because the oracles of God were to the Jews, to them belong the covenants, the adoption, and all that jazz.But Paul is saying God is revealing something never ever ever made known to anyone at any time, that God hid this secret in Himself where it could not be found out until God revealed it. This is different than the unfolding Mystery of Christ. This unfolding Mystery of Christ was made known from Genesis 3:15 forward, and the Acts? ALL PROPHECIED. But what is revealed as 'the mystery' was a secret, says the Bible, and NEVER PROPHESIED. This is in addition to anything ever made known before. This regards super-heavenly spheres of habitation, and is for some of God's chosen who are called into 'the Kingdom of His Dear Son'. This is but a mere portion of the greater Kingdom of God, which includes both earthly, as well as super heavenly spheres. Each to receive God's blessings and outpouring of everliving mercy and grace. But they are not the same place, nor the same blessings.This kingdom is inhabited, in the prison epistles, by an inheritance said to be the 'saints in light'. This was veiled off from the priests of Israel. Search and see what this means, Ho Hagios/Ho Hagion. The apostle says this clearly again and again and again of this calling and this choosing.It is never said of Israel. Israel is absent in this calling, His choosing.The point the apostle is making, is that Israel fulfilled the most dreadful of prophecy, and that then the same apostle makes known what was never written, and which is therefore, called, a mystery. Not just any secret thing of God, but THE secret thing of God. It all hinges upon this verse ~Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. May we refresh, Matt. 11-12, Christ is the Messiah come, showing forth in all the might signs and wonders of the OT prophecy, coming as greater than the temple, great than the prophet, and greater than the king. After the rejection Christ never speaks to the multitude again. Matt. 13, He is speaking in parables, or words along side. They are words the multitude never asked to understand. They are words in fulfilment of Isa. 6:9-10 ~Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. AND IN WHO IS FULFILLED THIS PROPHECY? ISRAEL. but this only foreshadows the warning set forth there, is restated in John, and finalized at the end of Acts.So the Lord quotes Is. 6:9-10, and it is a specific prophecy having to do with a specific people.Who was sent?Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Throughout the OT we have forerunners, types and shadows of Christ, but at the of Acts, we are given for the first time, what seems to be a post runner, a shadow of Christ leaving His earthly people. And in this is the apostles office magnified. Paul tells them again, and again, and again, that they are fulfilling the negative and dreadful side of prophecy. We can see this in the apostles to the circumcision's letters as well. The hope is the soon return of the Lord, the fear is that the day is dawning, and the truth of that light was quoted from Isa.Paul says of it, it is not just a mystery, but it is the mystery. It is, according to Paul, the mystery which completes the word of God. And it is not written to Israel, but specifically it is written to all nations. It is what is filling this parenthetical period we live in. This is what is written about the times of the gentiles. It is written by an inspired apostle about what is truth for today, for today is the day we live in the parenthesis between the time when God WAS working with His people of the earth, and the future when God SHALL work with His earthly people Israel.This distinction is clearly not written in the OT, and is founded upon the Lord's earthly ministerial warning, Isa. 6:9-10, which the Lord explained as something to be revealed that was hidden from, or since, the foundation of the world, wherein we find Paul is sent, for the first time in Holy Writ, to the nations.Not to Israel first any longer, but only to the nations. Sent. To the nations. Sent, to reveal the mystery.And nothing Paul then reveals, was ever revealed before. It is written, starting with Ephesians. And it concerns what happened after Israel is given to this present period.This is Israel's Lo-ammi period. Paul says in Romans that this was upon them. That only a remnant seemed to be aware of what was going on, and to these people Paul wrote in the high hopes and great love that Paul had for his people, Israel of the flesh, of whom he was in chains for. Paul is confessedly declaring that most dreadful prophecy, and it is dreadful if there ever was one. Upon this third written quoted statement, it is finalized, and the Salvation of God is sent to the gentiles, and they will hear it. That is at the end of the Acts, where Paul was healing everyone in sight.THEN the same apostle, the very same one with such miraculous miracles bestowed upon him by the Holy Spirit, that at one time (during the Acts when the signs and wonders and miracles were ever present) he was able to send healing by the Holy Spirit from his very garments.Yes, this is the apostle who conferred not with flesh and blood, but by the risen Christ. The same risen Christ who has written that Paul would also go forth and preach not only that which had been shown to Paul, but also Christ told Paul he was to preach something that would later be revealed by Christ.So in Romans we have the most basic of instructions, it is for the Jews first, it is also heard and believed in by certain gentiles, called Greeks, who were fulfilling OT prophecy that God would provoke to jealousy His people by those who were no people (those Gentiles). None of that is a secret. There is no mystery to anything that happened during the Gospels or the Acts. It is all in the OT.And the OT is quoted extensively throughout.And there is nothing in any of the letter written after Isa. 6:9-10 is quoted for that third and final time that can be found in the OT.Instead we find Israel is not present, the OT is not present. Paul speaks of things never before revealed to man at any time.Paul calls this, 'The Mystery'. And the first things Paul does is speak of a higher desire of God, one which is likened to a Will, from the Father, accomplished through the work of the Son, and Sealed by the Holy Spirit. It is the first chapter of Ephesians. By the end of the prison epistles, called so because they all bear the mark of prison and were written after Acts and that dreadful quote of Isa, Paul said that none were with him in setting those things which were behind, and reaching out to the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. And in the center of all that, we have the fact that none of the members of this body can be compared to the Head, which is Christ. When the 'promise' was capable and present for Israel to realize and obtain, all miracles, when Isa. is quoted at the end, the same apostle who the Lord was doing might works and miracles by, can no longer heal even his closest companions in the Lord. And angels are not there in these latter epistles. The hope of Israel is no longer present or spoken about. Specifically, for the first time, it is the hope of you gentiles who are concerned. And it has to due with something that the apostles writes Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Why, during the Acts, when the hope of Israel was in view, this same apostle writes1Co 1:26 For ye see your callingBut here we have a company chosen before the foundation of the world, who cannot see their calling, it must be prayed for and prayed for that your eyes might be enlightened...Something happened.Christ did not come.We do not stand outside the synagogues to listen to what Israel would hear first.Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; I look forward to your response as to why none of what is written in Ephesians, Colossians, Philpians, and 2 Timothy is new.
     
  8. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    The Jews of the time for the most part could not read there fore they were in the position of listening to the priests and oral Torah. So yes they had all the oracles, but really how many were there at this time? The Jewish priest hood had long since been polluted by the Kennites so the people were expecting a KING OF KINGS they still are. So they did not recognize Messiah. Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. So we can clearly see that a blindness fell upon the Jews.But only until the fulfillment of the Gentiles.I agree that thus ended temporarily Israel and the Jews and within a hundred years after the crucifiction we know Israel ceased to exist as a nation. And was to remain in exile until the time of the gentiles/church was in the season of the end. So yes, everything changed but for one reason JESUS CHRIST Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Again and again we are told Christ is the mystery hidden from before the foundationWe are now under the new covenant I don't deny everything is differentwe are in the time of the gentile not Israel we are under the new covenantnot the old. However the time of the gentile will end, the time of Grace will end, Thegentiles/church and Israel /Jews will be on equal territory.Both having been given truth both having known miracles from God,both having approx. equaltime both having been given the word. I believe this is what the two witnesses will be saying one representing Jews/the old covenant one representing the church/New covenant. It then becomes each individual's choice Jew or gentile which father (Christ or false christ) you will follow.
     
  9. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    but really how many were there at this time?
    Paul writes that all Israel had heard, that they fulfilled the commission in Mar. 16 (Rom 10:18>) that they fulfilled prophecy, that Israel had been tempted by a non people (non Israelites), nevertheless, a people who believed. This is a portion of Scripture which explains who 'all Israel' is, chp's 9-11. It is written to the Jew first, then to the gentile already standing outside the middle wall of partition at the synagogue. Paul did not teach where there was no synagogue.You correctly quote that there Israel was blind in part, and at the time of the apostles writing, Paul was still ministering, and hoping to visit Rome, which he later did, for the hope of Israel.Paul had not yet made it to Rome, and had not declared Israel blind until the end of Acts, where he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening (Act 28:23)vv 25, they divorce ! are concluded into their blindness and hardness of heart, vv 26, 27. The apostle is sent to the nations in vv 28, and they depart and reason among themselves vv 29> Paul writes from prison, vv 30>, and reveals, the mystery, as per Acts 26:16, in the prison epistles.Chronology of the Acts ~http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/append180.htmlAt the end of Acts Israel is blinded in total, scattered again, until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled. That is the present time. God is still administering, but the administration is not for the hope of Israel, it is for the hope of you nations (Eph. 3:1)Throughout Romans, the apostle has the hope of Israel in mind, Israel is only blinded in part at the time of that writing. It is not until after Acts is over, after Romans concluded Paul's worst fear, that she did not give herself over to repentance, it is then afterwards given for the apostle to receive the mystery. The Mysteryhttp://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/append193.htmlIt is a message for all nations, Israel too, but the choosing is not ours, it is the Lord's. In Acts we find that the callings of God are without change of mind. Is this not so? Israel then, became just another nation of many at the end of Acts. The apostle pronounces her blind, not in part. All Israel had heard. Their are those of Israel who here the calling of the mystery and that super heavenly adoption, but Scripture assures us that these were chosen into this adoption by the will of the Father (Eph 1:3-4).from 192. THE PAULINE EPISTLEShttp://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/append192.html To sum up : -- The saved sinner is shown IN ROMANS, as dead and risen with Christ: IN EPHESIANS, as seated in the heavenlies IN Christ: IN THESSALONIANS, in glory for ever with Christ.
     
  10. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    WE are not under any new covenant. WE were never promised a new covenant. Israel had an old covenant. Israel has the promise of a new covenant, but this fulfillment awaits Israel in the future. There is certainly no sign that Israel received her new covenant is there? Israel was offered it, but it was conditional upon her repentance. But only Israel has ever been given any covenant relationship with God, Biblically, and Biblically is all I am concerned with here. God had the apostle more letters which are addressed to all people everywhere. And in them we find the apostle saying in order for him to reach forth to the high calling, he must let go that which IS behind... The covenants ~Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; But when we get to the apostle being SENT to the nations, Israel is absent. The covenants are absent. Paul CANNOT AND DOES NOT quote the OT but maybe 5 times, and it is not for teaching what the HS was instructing Paul to reveal.
     
  11. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    The new covenant comes through the death of Jesus Christ. It's in the Bible, Luke 22:20, NIV. "In the same way, after the supper He took the cup, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you."The new covenant means we can go directly to God through Christ. It's in the Bible, Hebrews 7:22, NIV. "Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant."There is forgiveness of sins only through the new covenant. It's in the Bible, Hebrews 9:14-15, NIV. "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ , who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant."Jesus is the only way to God. It's in the Bible, John 14:6, NIV. "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'"Jesus has the power over death. It's in the Bible, John 11:25, NIV. "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies.'"And as for the mystery we are back at the same place where we started it lies within the persons of Christ an his resurection we are told that we have been foretold all things
     
  12. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    There is forgiveness of sins only through the new covenant.
    Oh please, Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood,through his bloodCol 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: there is forgiveness of sin only through Christ Jesus and the finished work on the tree. And the passage you quoted is written to the Hebrews, who, of course, have an old covenant. I AM NOT A HEBREW. Am I not saved by the finished work of Christ? It is almost as if you have not read Ephesians at all, wherein the HS clearly reveals that God has made other choosings In Christ which has nothing to do with Israel in any respect whatsoever, and in fact, were made long before the choosing of Israel. Hebrews is a letter written to overcomers who were Hebrews. Even the title says it is to the Hebrews. We get to read it, but it is addressed to the Hebrews, and the message it contains is for the hope of the soon return of the Lord from heaven to the earth, which was a possibility during the entire Acts drama. and therein it is explained that there are many 'better' things, and Abraham is set forth as an example, one of many in a long list in ch. 11, and their hope is not on the earth, but in the New Jerusalem.The church revealed after Acts does not have the earth, nor the New Jerusalem for it's sphere of blessing. Not according to Paul, and several letters amplifying the many differences.yes, Christ instructed His disciples in the New Covenant. they were to go forth, and minister to Israel. They did. The NC is OT. It belongs to Israel, as I have quoted. In order to have a new one, you have to have an old one. But none of that matters if God hs chosen to work out a different and neverbefore revealed portion of His plan.The Bible says that this is exactly what befell Israel, she was offered the OT kingdom upon national repentance, but she did not repent.The conclusion is straightforward.The salvation of God was sent to all nations.And to them, through the apostle Paul, is revealed what is called The Mystery.And the letters which reveal this mystery do not quote the OT. What is revealed, instead, tells of a different calling, at a different time of choosing, for a different purpose.That was SENT out after Acts.It is not the same thing.Israel shall receive her New Covenant. The Bible says this clearly. But the covenants are Israel's. Not the worlds.There is much prophesy for Israel to fulfill.The church called 'His body' has no prophesy. It has a high hope which resides IN Christ and IN the heavenly places.Israel's hope and calling is IN the earthand IN New Jerusalem.They are not the same.What does the Bible say? What is the latest and the greatest?Paul says of it, and I have quoted it many times, that it is THE MYSTERY which completes the Word of God. NOT the covenants, but THE MYSTERY.Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the dispensation (RV) of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
     
  13. Bamp;#39;midbar

    Bamp;#39;midbar New Member

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    I know this is going to sound quite simple in the context of this thread, but what is your view of Noah and the rainbow? It is a sign of a covenant:
    Gen 9:17 And God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is on the earth."
    I am aware of what Paul says about covenants, though, in Eph and Rom.
     
  14. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I never said forgiveness comes from the new covent I said the new covent comes through the death of Jesus Christ. Forgiveness comes only through Christ.The Salvation of was sent to all the nations this is true however so were the 10 lost tribes of Israel. Since we don't know who the ten tribes are you may be part Hebrew. There are no mysteries that are not in Gods word that have to do with our salvation as I said God has foretold us all things. What would be the point of some mystery of salvation if no one knew it. Why is it you seem to worship Pauls word over the rest of scripture When Paul is probably the most misinterepted of all.The church has no prophecy left to fufill? What does that mean. How does any of this conversation prove the OT has been set aside?
     
  15. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    (B'midbar;9061)
    I know this is going to sound quite simple in the context of this thread, but what is your view of Noah and the rainbow? It is a sign of a covenant:I am aware of what Paul says about covenants, though, in Eph and Rom.
    And what does Paul say in Ephesians, regarding covenants? Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: Eph 2:13 But now (which is extremely emphatic in the Greek)But now what? Paul reveal that gentiles now have Israel's covenants? No. He reveals that in Christ Jesus is being shown that a new creation has been introduced, where the Jew and the Gentile are made into 'one new man', and this makes good sense, being that Israel has now taken her place amidst the nations ~Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to CREATE in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And it is in this body, called 'the church which is His body', where the blessings are not Jewish in nature, but far above all where Christ sits at the right hand of God. In this choosing there is complete equality. The gentiles are not blessed through Israel as they were during the Acts, where they were without Christ and without God and without hope in the world, but now they are blessed by the blood of Christ and In Christ and seen as risen and seated with Christ there where He is, far above all principalities and powers and names and every name that is named.Noah, yes, Noah was told to build an ark. That was Noah's truth for today. It is not our truth for today though.And God did make a covenant which is 'established between me (Jehovah God) and all flesh that is upon the earthGen 9:17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth. And this is not the New Covenant which is to Israel and Israel alone, but a covnenant regarding how He will not destroy the earth and the living things on the earth with. Peter reveals, among others, it will be destroyed and recreated but by fire. God will honor that covenant I am quite certain.Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: See it?Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. But if it were not but for that small remnant, Israel would have been as Sodom and Gomorrah...Rom 9:29 And as Isaiah said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom, and been made like unto Gomorrah. Like Paul says, Israel is a welcome member to the church which is His body, but even this is conditional upon the choosing of God, according to Ephesians 1:4.
     
  16. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    Ephesians 1:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11....All please read the above verse by clicking on them and you will get the KJV of them see that Paul writes about a couple of important things here the theme is about becoming mature believers, unfortunatnately many never reach this point for they become dissallusioned by false teaching.. for few pulpits or religious institutions teach anythig other than that which is has falsly been taught for centuries.. ie rapture, replacment theology, the sin of apple eating in the garden...Note that Paul after his greeting straight away speaks of the first earth age... if you do not know about the first earth age, how can you understand Paul or his teachings? It is in verse 4 the time before the foundations of the earth.. God chose us... He certainly did choose those which He would give truth and those who would be blinded see verse 8....we know God is in all things fair, how would he have chosen? verse 9 by His pleasure... Did you give Father pleasure in the first age of the earth or displeasure... are you now pleasing Him or displeasing Him by misleading and telling untruths to his children, his babes? verse 9 speaks of the mystery what mystery is this... it is the same mystery stated in verse 10 and NO OTHER... if you say there is ,you are twisting the Word just as the SERPENT DID AND YOU SHOW YOU SELF TO BE OF HIM...for it says in verse 10 the mystery is the despensation of the fullness of time... the ages of the earth, how we came to serve Father then and therby are chosen now to serve the Son. ANY OTHER USE IF THIS TEACHING IS TOTALLY IN FALSEHOOD AND WILL BE NOTED BY FATHER AS SUCH.......IT IS PLAIN FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT TAKE VERSES OUT OF CONTEXT OR TWIST THEM TO SUIT THEIR PURPOSES.
     
  17. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    Well said betchevy,And thank you for the input.I have only one argument for you, it regards the quote "AND YOU SHOW YOU SELF TO BE OF HIM (Satan)".The argument is, is that there simply may be some who are not chosen as per vv 4 of Ephesians 1, we find that by the end of the apostle's ministry, 'all...in Asia' had turned away (2Ti 1:15), and they were believers, and as such, they were overcomers for their age time, so we have here, some who are still believers today but not necessarily called into the church which is His body, revealed in Ephesians, and as such, come under the heading of John, who preaches to the whole 'world' (see how many times John uses that word), that they might have life through His Name.Paul does, however, teach that there are many believers who are enemies of the cross of Christ, which, of course, goes to the reward, which can be won or lost.So I cannot at this time subscribe to any believers as being of the Devil as it were, and yet, even demons believe. What then, is their problem? Well, they are, according to Paul, blinded by the god of this world, and walk according to the course of this world, energized by the prince of the power of the air.In such an energization, it is the old sin nature which holds them back, just as it is the same old man sin nature which holds Satan himself back. They look to the things of this world, and to Israel's things, because Israel's things are the things of this earth, earthy. And it is those things which Paul says he must put behind him if he is going to reach for this, the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. And it is a high calling indeed, it reaches up far above all heavens of heavens, and goes back to a time before the foundation of the world.Without full acknowledgment of all that is written, it is impossible for Christ to put that new man on someone, for even a believer can refuse to acknowledge all that is written, and so, what does this kind of person have for God to further work with? This renewing (the putting on of the new man) comes day by day, a continual renewing against the lies and the things of the god of this world. The requirement is not to merely believe, but to seek out the mighty power of His Resurrection, who worketh mightily in those who believe through their own continual yielding acknowledgment.So we have, in the prison epistles, the revealing of The Mystery which was hid in God, is 'untrackable' (Eph 3:8), i.e. there is no trace to be found in the OT, moreover, nothing new was revealed throughout the Gospels and the Acts.Yes, in 1 Cor15, we have another mystery, and that is that they could be resurrected in their very lifetimes without going to the grave, but this was conditional, based upon national repentance, Mat 3:2, 4:17; Act 2:38, 3:19, 5:31, 13:24, &c, &c.So there are several mysteries, and in Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Timothy and Philppians, Paul both expands on the unfolding mystery of Christ which began in Genesis and was never a secret, as well as the revealing of The Mystery which completes the Word of God and was always a secret.The fact that this church is gentile and not found standing outside the middle wall of partition is revealing, the fact that Christ is not the king or priest of this church shows us it is not the same teachings. Then we have in vv3, that their blessings are all spiritual and in the heavenly places in Christ.All these things are the beginnings of what the apostle calls, 'the revelation of the mystery', and this is given when Paul a prisoner of Christ Jesus for the hope of you gentiles, and not as it was during the Acts, when the same Paul was a prisoner for the hope of Israel.And this church does not have Israel's blessings, which are earthly, but instead have the same hope and calling that the Lord Himself has (& the same time of their choosing), namely, the measure of the stature of the Christ, and called, not to be a wife or a bride, but is instead given the instructions to walk as a full grown husband;Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a "perfect man", unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: perfect is the Greek word for full grown, and 'man (anēr)' is the Greek word for husband. Search and see if this is not so. Let me help when I am able, here is the wordG435ἀνήρanēran'-ayrA primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir.It is further noted that this church is never called a woman in any form. Never called into Israel's blessings, which Abraham was told to walk the width and breadth of the land to see what the covenanted promises really and truly were.Obviously, Abraham had a fuller understanding, for we find in Hebrews that Abraham did not build on that land, instead he looked for a country that is heavenly, then we read that this heavenly country is a city, and it is called new jerusalem. This city is connected with an inheritance and an adoption, is connected with overcomers from that age of promise, that time when God was prepared to produce the kingdom promises to Israel, that she might be that channel of blessings to the nations.But when we get to these prison epistles, we find another company who has their own peculiar adoption and inheritance, and we read for the first time that gentiles can be blessed apart from Israel.Everything revealed in the prison epistles is, we read, built on top of the foundational ministry of the apostles and prophets (Eph 2:20), never to return to the earth again, rather, the blessings are all spiritual and in heavenly places, even seated with Christ where He is, and the hope is to manifest in a blaze of glory with Christ when He manifests in a blaze of glory.This is clearly not the same hope and calling that Israel has with her covenants, and entirely different that the overcomers found with faithful Abraham.Each of these three spheres of blessings are connected to the words, adoption, calling, and hope.They are called because it is the will of the Father, but this latter group must pray for this understanding, because it cannot be found in Scripture anywhere, not, at least, until it was given to be revealed by the apostle after Acts places Israel amidst the nations.We are living in the parentheses () between the verses of Christ's opening Words ~Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this Scripture fulfilled in your ears. Note that Christ did NOT read the rest of that verse, which says, "and the day of vengeance of our God"So we have nearly two thousand years, which, in our Bibles, are divided by a mere comma.The Acceptable year of the Lord.Fulfilled at first adventThe Day of Vengeance of our God.Fulfilled at 2nd adventIt was not time for that, the DISPENSATION which concerns this was not yet made ready.What can we learn from this?1. Christ endorses the Word of God which is written in the Book2. Christ practices rightly dividing the word of truth3. Christ acknowledges His own dispensation of His expanding outworking by not dispensing information before that which He has purposedThink how important it must be to rightly divide the word of truth then. And therein, we find the Lord practices right division, and the instruction to be found so doing is given to the church which is His body, given after Acts sends the apostle to the nations who will hear that the Salvation of God is now sent to THEM.
     
  18. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    Satan twisted the words or God from the beginning he told Eve surely you will not die? He uses some to twist the meaning of the Word here and now...SSSSS if you do as him you are of him, you do not agree with me, but you saw how telling it would be telling... False teachers are the first to be judged... you are either a false teacher or mentally ill for your teachings do not make sense, they go in circles epo not straight as the word tells it ;either way I am concerned for your well being. You need help either of a spiritual nature, or a physical/mental one. Please seek it.
     
  19. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    Perhaps you could be specific?
     
  20. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    betchevy,I mean, really, if a person gets something wrong, that does not mean they are from Satan. Every book but John's Gospel is written to believers, and in them what do we find, but a people without understanding. These were not called Satan by the Christ, so where do you get calling me mentally ill or a false teacher? WHERE'S ALL YOUR LOVE betchevyWe do read, and I quoted it, that even believers can be enemies of the cross of Christ. That does not make the believers Satanic seed. It just means they are a workman who may be found ashamed of their work, moreover, as long as their is breath, every individual has the opportunity to receive further revelation, to grow in acknowledgment and wisdom, so don't be ridiculous - why do you continue to hammer on my person rather than simply dealing with that which is written? are you the one judge the Bible speaks of, or does the Scripture not provide instructions against judging one another? Matt. 13 says clearly, you cannot tell who the tares are anyways. don't you know these simple truths?if we used your argument, then, according to Luke 24, all the apostles who did not yet understand the Scriptures, until the Lord supernaturally opened the eyes of their understanding, are of SatanDo you even realize what you are saying?Take the apostle Paul next, he was a believer, he believed the entire OT writ, and yet, he persecuted the church of God, which, according to what you write, makes Paul one of Satan's as welli am reminded of a prayer of Paul's ~Php 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; Php 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent (Gr.=try the things that differ); that ye may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ; Php 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
     
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