Israel vs Judah
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Stan B
Well-Known Member
I don't understand the question. Israel is the progeny of Israel/Jacob; and Judah is the progeny of Judah. Is there some sort of mystery hidden somewhere in there?
Stan B
Well-Known Member
Do we know the difference between what?
If you intend to ask a question, try writing/ typing the question out.
Your title is Israel and Judah. There are many differences most are totally irrelevant to life today.
Who cares whether that group of people can trace their ancestry back to Abraham.
Spiritiualy it has no relevence to Christianity, our salvation is through a relationship with Jesus and not with who one's ancestors were.
The only way Israel and Judah have relevence is in the many prophets who warned them both to mend their ways.
Israel the rebellious tribes can be identified with this Christians who like Israel play fast and loose with God's word.
Judah can be seen as those Christians who seek to be obedient to God's word.
Note there is condemnation for both groups for there casual disregard of God's word.
Stan B
Well-Known Member
The question was addressed to me, and what n2thelight was asking was very clear to me.
You missing my point of this thread.And it's not Israel and Judah,it's it's Israel vs Judah.
The point I'm making is that all Israel are not just Jew's,ie,from that nation state of Israel today.
If you say they have know relevance then you are saying Christianity has none either.
What I'm trying to do is show that Israel,are the Christian nations of today.I feel it's very important to know this fact.
If you are referring to the kingdom of Israel vs the kingdom of Judah after Solomon then of course they were at odds with each other (hence versus). But after the return from the Babylonian captivity, Israel and Judah are used interchangeably in the New Testament.
Stan B
Well-Known Member
I have spent a lot of time studying this, and my take on it, is that God's plan for Israel, the Wife of Yahweh, is significantly different than that of His plan for the church, the Bride of Christ.
Since Israel is already married to Yahweh, could she also be the Bride of Christ? Wouldn't that be adultery??
Israel lives under still-valid the Old Covenant, and one day when they discover the New and better Covenant, the Old Covenant which is an eternal Covenant:
For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. Heb 8
And thus ALL Israel will be saved. When God When God reunites with His adulterous wife, He will not be re-united with miscellaneous random parts of His wife, but ALL of her.
I will betroth you to Me forever;
Yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and in justice,
In loving kindness and in compassion,
And I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness.
Then you will know the Lord.
It will come about in that day that I will respond, declares the Lord. . .
Hosea 2:18-19
The Church is Israel,I don't see how the two can be different as the Christian nations are the Church which is Israel
Stan B
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but His love for his wife has never been diminished. God has never abandoned His wife Israel:
“I will betroth you to Me forever;
Yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and in justice,
In loving kindness and in compassion,
And I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness.
Then you will know the Lord.
"It will come about in that day that I will respond,” declares the Lord. . .
Hosea 2:18-19
No they are not,as the two sticks will not be joined back until the return of Christ
Stan B
Well-Known Member
Perhaps in a spiritual sense, that we are merely grafted in, but certainly not in the genetic sense as beneficiaries of the seed of Abraham.
Let's look at the Book of James
Think I'm gonna post this and leave it alone,as I've been saying the Church is Israel for over 30 years now.
We are told to "rightly divide the Word of God", and this includes not only who the book is written by, but also who it is written to. It includes the time that it was written and for what time period it is addressed. The book of James was written between 65-69 A.D., in Jerusalem. This was just prior to the fall of Jerusalem to the Roman general Titus, and the scattering of the Jews from Jerusalem. So it is important to notice that it is addressed not just to the tribes of the House of Judah, and the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, but to all of the tribes, including the ten tribes that made up the "House of Israel". Those ten tribes of the the House of Israel were scattered prior to 722 B.C by the Assyrians, and were not part of the captivity of the House of Judah [called Jews], in Babylon.
The book of James is written to the twelve tribes. These twelve tribes came from the twelve sons of Jacob. Jacob was the grandson of Abraham, through Isaac, and Jacob's name was changed by God to "Israel". While in captivity in Egypt the family of Jacob, or Israel grew into a nation, and all the families of Israel became known as the children of Israel. And in due time, as God had prophesied to Abraham, his family came out of Egypt as a nation. While in the wilderness, Moses had all the families separated into their individual tribes, and established their own individual banners to identify themselves personally. Though each of the tribes was allocated their own lands in the promised land, the tribe of Levi was established as the priestly tribe and was scattered amongst all the other tribes. Yet because of Joseph's birthright, a double portion was given to him, and given to both of Joseph's sons, Ephraim and Manasseh.
These tribes conquered their promised land, and lived under the rule of the Judges from about 1440 B.C. until the monarch was set up by Samuel the prophet, when Samuel anointed Saul as the king. After Saul's rule came king David and then his son Solomon. When Solomon died, the kingdom of the twelve tribes called Israel was split into two separate nations, called "Houses". These houses were the "House of Israel", which was made up of the ten tribes to the north, and the "House of Judah", which at a later time in Babylon became known as "Jews". Each of these two nations had their own line of kings, rule of law, and God dealt with each of them separately.
The "House of Israel" are those ten tribes which were taken captive by the Assyrians to a location in northern Iraq for relocation, and shortly after their relocation from their Palestine area home lands, they continued their migrations through the Caucasus mountains, and on into Western Europe, and the Americas. The one thing that these ten tribes never lost in their identity, was this single event of their earliest migrations. That trip through the Caucasus mountains, for this marked them as "Caucasians", even to our present generation. Though most Caucasians simply don't know who they are, or how they came to be identified, they do know that they are Caucasian, but they think that they think Caucasian is in reference to the color white.
God used the prophet Hosea to tell the people of the children of Israel that not only would the two nations be separated, and form two nations, but He would divorce one of the nations or houses, and stay married to the other. The example [ensample] was given through the marriage of the prophet Hosea to a daughter of whoredoms named Gomer, and they had three children. The first child was named "Jezreel", and the name of this son was used to tell the kingdom of the "House of Israel" [not the Jews], of the prophecy of God's divorcement to them. This name of Jezreel had two meanings in the Hebrew tongue. The name is prophetic of the "coming judgment and future mercy".
The knowledge of the "House of Judah" is quite common knowledge to most Christians, however the House of Israel is cloudy and unknown to them. The prophet Hosea gives us the knowledge of where these tribes are in the end times, and what they will be known by in Hosea 1:10.
Hosea 1:10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, `Ye are not my people,' there it shall be said unto them, `Ye are the sons of the living God.' "
We know that the "House of Judah" is not as the sands of the sea, for most of their people are either sheltered by the United States, or in their tiny nation called "Israel" today. But these ten tribes have grown to a number that we simply can't count. It is in the places that they are located, not in that tiny nation of Israel, but wherever they are, Hosea is telling us exactly what they will be identified as. "Ye are the sons of the living God." The "living God" is Jesus Christ who arose from the dead on the third day and and ascended into Heaven. Those that identify with Christ are called "Christians". Hosea is telling us that the "House of Israel" will call their nations "Christians Nations", and we can also identify them to be "Caucasians".
The House of Judah, or commonly called the Jews, are made up of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, and part of the tribe of Levi. Heavily mixed in with these Israelites are the foreigners or Orientals called the "Nethinims" by Ezra and Nehemiah, which are the "Kenites" that had taken over the duties of both the scribes and the priests, and changed much of the laws which God gave to Moses. I Chronicles 2:55 tells us that three families of Kenites took over the duties of the scribes, and thus they fused themselves into the records of the House of Judah, from the time of their captivity in Babylon. In fact, when the Jews came out of Babylon, Ezra stopped to take account of those people and the things that were going back to Jerusalem to re-establish the Temple and the city. Ezra records in his records:
Ezra 8:15 "And I gathered them together to the river that runneth to Ahava; and there abode we in tents three days: and I viewed the people, and the priests, and found there none of the sons of Levi."
Here Ezra and the Jews were returned to build the temple and continue in the worship of God, and these Kenites or sons of Cain had taken over the priesthood. Is it any wonder that their offspring that filled those positions during the time of Jesus wanted to kill Jesus from the start of His ministry? For the next five hundred years under these Kenites, the traditions of these Kenites had replaced the laws of God. Even to the point where there was no agreement between the teachings of Christ, and that of the Kenite Jewish religious leaders. This is the reason that these Kenite Jewish leaders plotted continually to murder Jesus. As we know, they were successful in their deeds, for this entire course of events was prophesied from the beginning of the Word of God, through to the death of Christ on the cross. His death being that price which was paid whereby we could be drawn back to the Father, through our faith in Jesus Christ, and our repentance to the Father in Jesus name.
So the reason for the controversy is because of who this book is addressed to. Most Christians are completely ignorant of the ten tribes of the House of Israel, and they have difficulty handling the Scriptures. Their pastors have told them to disregard much of the Old Testament, thus they have lumped all of the tribes into the small house of Judah. However, the Scriptures even point out that each of the houses, and the Gentiles have different duties to perform, as is pointed out in Revelation chapter seven. Those duties will be performed even to the last hour of this earth age. For the Word of God to be complete it must address all people, therefore don't ever let somebody tell you that there is something wrong with the book of James. For if they do, it is that they are not able to rightly divide the Word of God.
To give James his credentials we must go to Galatians 2:9; "And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision."
James is the writer of this book, "Cephas" is the name for Peter, and John were the leaders or elders of the church at Jerusalem. It is Paul doing the talking in Galatians and Paul is identifying the fact that Paul would be going to the heathen, or Gentiles nations, and James, Peter and John would be going to the tribes of Israel, those of the "circumcision", of the seed of Abraham. This book then is very meaningful for every Christian to read and absorb into their minds.
james1
Think I'm gonna post this and leave it alone,as I've been saying the Church is Israel for over 30 years now.
We are told to "rightly divide the Word of God", and this includes not only who the book is written by, but also who it is written to. It includes the time that it was written and for what time period it is addressed. The book of James was written between 65-69 A.D., in Jerusalem. This was just prior to the fall of Jerusalem to the Roman general Titus, and the scattering of the Jews from Jerusalem. So it is important to notice that it is addressed not just to the tribes of the House of Judah, and the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, but to all of the tribes, including the ten tribes that made up the "House of Israel". Those ten tribes of the the House of Israel were scattered prior to 722 B.C by the Assyrians, and were not part of the captivity of the House of Judah [called Jews], in Babylon.
The book of James is written to the twelve tribes. These twelve tribes came from the twelve sons of Jacob. Jacob was the grandson of Abraham, through Isaac, and Jacob's name was changed by God to "Israel". While in captivity in Egypt the family of Jacob, or Israel grew into a nation, and all the families of Israel became known as the children of Israel. And in due time, as God had prophesied to Abraham, his family came out of Egypt as a nation. While in the wilderness, Moses had all the families separated into their individual tribes, and established their own individual banners to identify themselves personally. Though each of the tribes was allocated their own lands in the promised land, the tribe of Levi was established as the priestly tribe and was scattered amongst all the other tribes. Yet because of Joseph's birthright, a double portion was given to him, and given to both of Joseph's sons, Ephraim and Manasseh.
These tribes conquered their promised land, and lived under the rule of the Judges from about 1440 B.C. until the monarch was set up by Samuel the prophet, when Samuel anointed Saul as the king. After Saul's rule came king David and then his son Solomon. When Solomon died, the kingdom of the twelve tribes called Israel was split into two separate nations, called "Houses". These houses were the "House of Israel", which was made up of the ten tribes to the north, and the "House of Judah", which at a later time in Babylon became known as "Jews". Each of these two nations had their own line of kings, rule of law, and God dealt with each of them separately.
The "House of Israel" are those ten tribes which were taken captive by the Assyrians to a location in northern Iraq for relocation, and shortly after their relocation from their Palestine area home lands, they continued their migrations through the Caucasus mountains, and on into Western Europe, and the Americas. The one thing that these ten tribes never lost in their identity, was this single event of their earliest migrations. That trip through the Caucasus mountains, for this marked them as "Caucasians", even to our present generation. Though most Caucasians simply don't know who they are, or how they came to be identified, they do know that they are Caucasian, but they think that they think Caucasian is in reference to the color white.
God used the prophet Hosea to tell the people of the children of Israel that not only would the two nations be separated, and form two nations, but He would divorce one of the nations or houses, and stay married to the other. The example [ensample] was given through the marriage of the prophet Hosea to a daughter of whoredoms named Gomer, and they had three children. The first child was named "Jezreel", and the name of this son was used to tell the kingdom of the "House of Israel" [not the Jews], of the prophecy of God's divorcement to them. This name of Jezreel had two meanings in the Hebrew tongue. The name is prophetic of the "coming judgment and future mercy".
The knowledge of the "House of Judah" is quite common knowledge to most Christians, however the House of Israel is cloudy and unknown to them. The prophet Hosea gives us the knowledge of where these tribes are in the end times, and what they will be known by in Hosea 1:10.
Hosea 1:10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, `Ye are not my people,' there it shall be said unto them, `Ye are the sons of the living God.' "
We know that the "House of Judah" is not as the sands of the sea, for most of their people are either sheltered by the United States, or in their tiny nation called "Israel" today. But these ten tribes have grown to a number that we simply can't count. It is in the places that they are located, not in that tiny nation of Israel, but wherever they are, Hosea is telling us exactly what they will be identified as. "Ye are the sons of the living God." The "living God" is Jesus Christ who arose from the dead on the third day and and ascended into Heaven. Those that identify with Christ are called "Christians". Hosea is telling us that the "House of Israel" will call their nations "Christians Nations", and we can also identify them to be "Caucasians".
The House of Judah, or commonly called the Jews, are made up of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, and part of the tribe of Levi. Heavily mixed in with these Israelites are the foreigners or Orientals called the "Nethinims" by Ezra and Nehemiah, which are the "Kenites" that had taken over the duties of both the scribes and the priests, and changed much of the laws which God gave to Moses. I Chronicles 2:55 tells us that three families of Kenites took over the duties of the scribes, and thus they fused themselves into the records of the House of Judah, from the time of their captivity in Babylon. In fact, when the Jews came out of Babylon, Ezra stopped to take account of those people and the things that were going back to Jerusalem to re-establish the Temple and the city. Ezra records in his records:
Ezra 8:15 "And I gathered them together to the river that runneth to Ahava; and there abode we in tents three days: and I viewed the people, and the priests, and found there none of the sons of Levi."
Here Ezra and the Jews were returned to build the temple and continue in the worship of God, and these Kenites or sons of Cain had taken over the priesthood. Is it any wonder that their offspring that filled those positions during the time of Jesus wanted to kill Jesus from the start of His ministry? For the next five hundred years under these Kenites, the traditions of these Kenites had replaced the laws of God. Even to the point where there was no agreement between the teachings of Christ, and that of the Kenite Jewish religious leaders. This is the reason that these Kenite Jewish leaders plotted continually to murder Jesus. As we know, they were successful in their deeds, for this entire course of events was prophesied from the beginning of the Word of God, through to the death of Christ on the cross. His death being that price which was paid whereby we could be drawn back to the Father, through our faith in Jesus Christ, and our repentance to the Father in Jesus name.
So the reason for the controversy is because of who this book is addressed to. Most Christians are completely ignorant of the ten tribes of the House of Israel, and they have difficulty handling the Scriptures. Their pastors have told them to disregard much of the Old Testament, thus they have lumped all of the tribes into the small house of Judah. However, the Scriptures even point out that each of the houses, and the Gentiles have different duties to perform, as is pointed out in Revelation chapter seven. Those duties will be performed even to the last hour of this earth age. For the Word of God to be complete it must address all people, therefore don't ever let somebody tell you that there is something wrong with the book of James. For if they do, it is that they are not able to rightly divide the Word of God.
To give James his credentials we must go to Galatians 2:9; "And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision."
James is the writer of this book, "Cephas" is the name for Peter, and John were the leaders or elders of the church at Jerusalem. It is Paul doing the talking in Galatians and Paul is identifying the fact that Paul would be going to the heathen, or Gentiles nations, and James, Peter and John would be going to the tribes of Israel, those of the "circumcision", of the seed of Abraham. This book then is very meaningful for every Christian to read and absorb into their minds.
james1
Genesis 46:14 and 16, Jacob’s Prophecy Over Ephraim and Manasseh
While prophesying over Joseph’s sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, Jacob crossed his hands over their heads making the symbol of the Paleo-Hebrew letter tav (like the letter t or x in the alphabet), which resembles a cross and in that ancient Hebraic script and according to some Hebrew scholars pictographically means “sign of the covenant.” Jacob then spoke of the Heavenly Messenger (the Hebrew word malak mistranslated as “angel” in most Bibles) of YHVH (i.e. the preincarnate Yeshua) who had redeemed him from all evil (see Gen 31:11–13). Jacob then prophesied that the descendants of Ephraim and Manasseh would become like “fish in the midst of the land” (literal translation of Gen 48:14–16; see The ArtScroll Stone Edition Tanach).
In light of this prophetic symbolism, which present day religious group would qualify as having fulfilled Jacob’s prophecy as to who the descendents of Ephraim and Manasseh would be? Which religion on earth uses the fish as their symbol, speaks of a Messenger from YHVH as their Redeemer, and has the sign of the Paleo-Hebrew letter tav, which looks like a cross? The Buddhists? The Moslems? The Hindus? Even the Jews? No! Only Christianity fits this enigmatic criteria. Many Christians are without a doubt the literal descendants of Ephraim and Manasseh. Those who are not, according to the Paul the apostle, once they come to saving faith in Yeshua in some unique sense become the descendants of Abraham (e.g. Gal 3:7, 29). Many of these unsaved descendants of Abraham will recognize Yeshua their Messiah on the day that he returns to Jerusalem (e.g. Zech 12:10).
Which nation on earth is without a doubt still the greatest Christian nation? It is the United States of America. Having an understanding of how Jacob’s prophecy to Ephraim and Manasseh was fulfilled is the first piece of the puzzle in identifying America in Bible prophecy.
While prophesying over Joseph’s sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, Jacob crossed his hands over their heads making the symbol of the Paleo-Hebrew letter tav (like the letter t or x in the alphabet), which resembles a cross and in that ancient Hebraic script and according to some Hebrew scholars pictographically means “sign of the covenant.” Jacob then spoke of the Heavenly Messenger (the Hebrew word malak mistranslated as “angel” in most Bibles) of YHVH (i.e. the preincarnate Yeshua) who had redeemed him from all evil (see Gen 31:11–13). Jacob then prophesied that the descendants of Ephraim and Manasseh would become like “fish in the midst of the land” (literal translation of Gen 48:14–16; see The ArtScroll Stone Edition Tanach).
In light of this prophetic symbolism, which present day religious group would qualify as having fulfilled Jacob’s prophecy as to who the descendents of Ephraim and Manasseh would be? Which religion on earth uses the fish as their symbol, speaks of a Messenger from YHVH as their Redeemer, and has the sign of the Paleo-Hebrew letter tav, which looks like a cross? The Buddhists? The Moslems? The Hindus? Even the Jews? No! Only Christianity fits this enigmatic criteria. Many Christians are without a doubt the literal descendants of Ephraim and Manasseh. Those who are not, according to the Paul the apostle, once they come to saving faith in Yeshua in some unique sense become the descendants of Abraham (e.g. Gal 3:7, 29). Many of these unsaved descendants of Abraham will recognize Yeshua their Messiah on the day that he returns to Jerusalem (e.g. Zech 12:10).
Which nation on earth is without a doubt still the greatest Christian nation? It is the United States of America. Having an understanding of how Jacob’s prophecy to Ephraim and Manasseh was fulfilled is the first piece of the puzzle in identifying America in Bible prophecy.
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