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Jesus And Martyrdom

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by beefy, Apr 22, 2009.

  1. beefy

    beefy New Member

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    Hey there, my name is Beefy, and I am new to this forum. Hope everyone is doing alright.Why do we kill people to show that killing people is wrong? What would Jesus do?When one of Christs' disciples cut of the ear of the guard, Jesus healed the guard and told the disciple, "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."Matthew 26:52Jesus told us to turn the other cheek, and to love our enemies. He taught us to bless those who cursed us. Jesus loved everyone. He never hurt anyone. Neither did His disciples. In fact, they were faithful to Him, even when they were persecuted and killed for His sake. When Jesus says "Love," in "love your enemies," the text uses the Greek word "agape." Unlike any word in the English language, "agape" calls for deliberate, unconditional, non-retaliatory, sacrificial, all-encompassing, all-inclusive, nonviolent universal love, a love which lays down our lives for others, in this case, the people of Iraq and Afghanistan. Jesus commands us to practice the unconditional love of God, to show, for example, "agape" to the people of Iraq.The ends (saving someone) are not justified by the means (killing someone), for then you have turned into the transgressor for you perform the same action you try to prevent him from performing. As a popular bumper sticker reads, "When Jesus said 'love your enemies, I think he probably meant don't kill them."Before one begins to cite examples of killing in the Old Testament, remember that the argument was that Christians don't kill people. The Jews in the Old Testament were not Christians. Christ was not even born yet, so they could not possibly be Christians. God physically spoke to the Jews, and He specifically told them what to do, and when to do it. The Jews of the Old Testament were not Christians, and they followed the Old Covenant. The Christians follow the New Covenant.When Jesus formed the New Covenant with Christians, the law of old was passed away:Hebrews 8:13, "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."Galatians 3:13, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"John 1:17, " For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."Luke 16:16, "The law and the prophets were until John(the baptist): since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Hebrews 8 "Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Romans 7:6, " But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter."Jesus presents the way, the truth, and the life for Christians. The only way:Matthew 5:38-39 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."And His disciples follow suit:Romans 12:17, "Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men."1 Peter 3:19, "Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing."Before one begins to cite this verse, Romans 13:1, "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."The powers that be are ordained of God, indeed. God works everything for the good of those who love Him, and nothing occurs that does not happen according to His will. But the verse does not say that the powers that be are followers of Christ, or that they are receiving God's blessing. If one follows the logical conclusion that the powers that be are ordained of God, then one must realize that Nazi Germany was ordained of God just as easily as America was ordained of God. Both are powers that be (or were). It doesn't mean they are followers of Christ. Otherwise the verse would be saying, "Every nation is a follower of Christ," which is obviously not so.Continue to read the chapter please. Seven verses later, in Romans 13:8-10, it says, ""Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Romans 13: 8-10It says right here that "love worketh no ill to his neighbor." The action Hitler took, to order the extermination of the Jews, his fellow neighbors, was an action that worked ill to the Jews, and therefore was not an action of love, because "Love worketh no ill to his neighbor." Jesus said to love our enemies, bless those who curse you, and to do good to those who hate you.It is inconceivable that any human could kill another human out of love. It is not Biblical. Killing other people is not God's law, because it cannot be done out of love, and if it cannot be done out of love, it cannot be a "fulfillment of the law, " because "love is the fulfilling of the law."God has ordained powers in place for a reason. Oftentimes, God placed powers that were not fulfilling His law into power in order to fulfill His prophecy, and oftentimes His prophecy led to the eventual downfall of those ordained powers. We are to pay tribute to whom tribute is due, and obey them in power as long as it does not contradict God's law. We are to "submit to one another in the fear of God."Ephesians 5:21Jesus did not come to kill, but to save. And we Christians are told to be imitators of Christ. "Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ." 1 Corinthians 11:1"And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. Luke 9:51-56Before one begins to cite this verse, Hebrews 13:17, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."Who was he talking about? Who has rule over us?He states in the same chapter who it is that has rule over us:Hebrews 13:24 "Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you."Note that he says to salute the saints, and then salutes the very saints he is writing to. The saints follow God, and it is God who rules everyone, regardless of whether they believe it or not. God is who rules over us, and therefore so do His saints.What do His saints say?For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 2 Corinthians 10:3-4Furthermore, the disciples informed Christians that "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" and that the sword we fight with is the "the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." Ephesians 6:12,17God says, "Vengeance is mine." He will avenge the persecution against Christians and their families. It is not our responsibility to avenge ourselves. We live by faith. Jesus told us to be "as wise as serpents, and as harmless as doves." Matthew 10:16Jesus says to be as "harmless as doves" immediately after he says that He sends us out as sheep amongst wolves. Sheep got nothing on wolves, they are truly defenseless. Only the sheperd defends them. Jesus is our sheperd, and therefore He is our only defender.Jesus also told us "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven" Luke 6:37To not forgive our enemies means that we will not be forgiven by God. Only if we forgive, then we will be forgiven.We are not to judge other people, at all, not ever. There is a difference when one judges an action or dispute, reather than judging a person. If a person lies and you tell them, "You have lied you shouldn't do that," that is acceptable, judging an action. But is you tell them, "You are a liar!" That is a judgement on the person. It implies that a liar is who the person is, that they are perpetually a liar. Only God can judge people, their character, who they are.If someone kills or rapes someone, then we"avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." Romans 12:19Before one cites, "For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." Romans 13:4The disciples were not perfect. Sometimes the disciples of Jesus did not always speak in congruence to what Jesus said, as evidenced by when one of them said "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:35Jesus never said any such thing!!!There is a contradiction present here between what the disciple says,and what Jesus said, "For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." Romans 13:4Paul tells us to be afraid of a mortal man with a mortal sword, who cannot kill the soul.Did not Jesus tell the disciples not to fear those which kill the body? "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28Paul says to fear man, whereas Jesus says to fear God. A contradiction is present. The Holy Spirit does not contradict Jesus!!!Therefore, Paul cannot be writing this part of scripture out of a calling from the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit does not contradict Jesus.Instead, Jesus tells them that "ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end (aka death) shall be saved." Matthew 10:22Even John says this in Revelation 2:10, "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.John also wrote in Revelation 13:10 "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."Notice how Jesus said, thousands of years ago, that "All they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Matthew 26:52And in future prophecy for this world, "he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword." Revelation 13:10The message has not changed after all this time. If you take up the sword, you will perish with the sword! Jesus does not say when, he only says it is so.Instead, Jesus told us to forgive our brother "not seven times, but seventy-seven times." We are to forgive always, no matter what has been done to us, or to someone we love. In this way, God will also forgive our sins, if we forgive others' sin."Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God." 1 Corinthians 4:5We are not supposed to judge anyone until the Lord comes back again, and then He will judge them. That is what we are commanded to do, by these words, and by "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged." And Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15Policemen, elected officials, and military soldiers are not above God's Law. If they seek to be a disciple of Jesus, a Christian, then they must also love and forgive as Jesus loved and forgave, and not judge anyone before the time. What About Jesus' Command to Buy a Sword?Some would argue that Luke 22:36-38 justifies joining an organization of the world whose purpose it is to "defend" a nation by killing those which it views as politically opposing it. The verse says the following, "Then He [Jesus] said to them [His disciples], 'But now he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garments and buy one. For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end.' So they said, 'Lord, look, here are two swords.' And He said to them; 'It is enough.'"Let us agree upon what these verses do plainly teach. First, clearly Jesus does say that his disciples could have swords, and in fact He does command them to buy a sword. However Jesus gives us the reason he gave that command. He says, "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.'" So, what Jesus is saying is that he must be numbered with the transgressors, so he says in effect, 'go ahead and buy swords so that you will be considered rebels-insurrectionists-transgressors when the religious leaders come toarrest me'. In this way, Jesus will fulfill the prophesy about Messiah being numbered with the transgressors. It is that simple and this fits the context of that passage the best.The most important principle in properly interpreting the scripture is context and cross reference with other scripture. The context of this passage is NOT some political statement, nor some statement about defending a nation. Rather, it is a statement about Jesus fulfilling Messianic prophesy about being numbered with transgressors.When other's want to kill us for loving the Lord Jesus, then we allow them to send us Home, for to be with our Father is our heart's desire.Before one says the following: "if killing people is so bad, why didn't Jesus tell the centurion to quit being a soldier? Let us review those verses, Luke 7:1-10:"And a centurion's slave, who was highly regarded by him, was sick and about to die. When he heard about Jesus, he sent some Jewish elders asking Him to come and save the life of his slave..."The centurion says to Jesus: "...I did not even consider myself worthy to come to You, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed...""...Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled at him, and turned and said to the crowd that was following Him, "I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such great faith." When those who had been sent returned to the house, they found the slave in good health."There is a different issue which this passage could be appealled to by using the same arguement: if slavery was so bad, why didn't Jesus tell the centurion to quit owning slaves? Such a point may seem silly beyond the need to consider to modern sensibilities, but such arguements were exactly the kinds used to deffend slavery as little as a century ago. The New Testament is filled with references to Christian slaves and slavery which doesn't paint it in a particularily negative light (Philippians 4:22, Ephesians 6:5-9, Colossians 3:22-4:1). There is even a whole book of the New Testament, Paul's Epistle to Philemon, which is giving advice to a Christian slaveowner and the slave. Paul has advice on fulfilling the duty of slaves, permitting even Christians to have slaves and going on to say that to even debate the slavery issue is pointless quarrelling, as in this quote from the First Epistle to Timothy. But Paul later wrote, correcting his error concerning slavery, in Galatians 3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."Ultimately, the whole situation is less about the centurion than it is a lesson for us. This is the extravagance of God's grace: that even a slave-owning soldier from an oppressive and occupying military superpower (Rome) can know God's grace.How easy would it have been for Jesus and the Hebrews to tell the centurion to shove off because he's their oppressor. Yet they did not... God's grace is for all people, even our enemies. But how can we finally confirm that this was His intent and not actually a standard ambivilance towards solidery?Prior to this event, John the Baptist actually does interact with soldiers who come to him asking specifically what they should do. John's response is related in Luke 3:14: And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, "Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages." If we can presume enough to suggest that John's and Jesus' teachings were in coherence, then it stands that yes, Jesus did not intend soldiers to continue on in soldiery. The reason for this is because if soldiers followed the command to "do violence to no man," then they would get in trouble with their superiors, and would likely get kicked out of the military, or given a non-combat postion within the military. In this non-combat position, they are still commanded to be "content with your wages."There is no Biblical basis at all for "defending" one's family and/or country in violence. The only Biblical defending there is to do is to put oneself between the bullet and the family member/fellow countryman, in self-sacrifice. That is what Jesus and his disciples would do, because they say that "to live is Christ and to die is gain."Phillipians 1:21 They hold no value on their physical life, because they know it is only temporary. They seek not to save their lives, lest the lose it, and they lose their life for Christs' sake so they can find life anew.Jesus nor the Bible ever once mentioned one's "duty" to one's country or one's "duty" to one's family. Jesus did say, however, that "He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me." Matthew 10:37Do you love your son or daugther more so much that in your defense of them you will disobey Jesus command to "love your enemy" and to be "as harmless as a dove"? If so, then you are not worthy of Him. Not that we are worthy of His love anyway, but my point is to love God more than we love our family.Jesus did say that, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13Jesus illustrated this love through His death on the cross, and He did it without violence. His disciples illustrated this love through their martyrdom, and they did it without violence. They laid down their lives, and they hurt no one. They loved everyone.It is written, "The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. 25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord." Matthew 10:24-25Just as the servant is not above the master, Christians are not above martyrdom. It is what Jesus did, it is what his disciples did. We Christians are His disciples. "It is enough" that we be as the master,Jesus, and be ready and willing to die for our faith, or to give our life for a family member, friend, or even our very enemy, in order to show God's love. That what Jesus did, He died for His enemies, us, the sinners(the enemies of God).Even going to law against one another is forbidden:"But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren." 1 Corinthians 6:6-8Real Christians do not go to law "before the unbelievers." Real Christians do what Jesus said to do. Jesus said "And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also." Matthew 5:40 And in very early Christianity one finds nearly universal opposition to the idea that Christians can engage in war:"We who formerly murdered one another now refrain from making war even upon our enemies." Justin Martyr"I decline military command." Tatian"We are not to draw an outline of ... a sword or a bow, since we follow peace." Clement of Alexandria"The Christian does no harm even to his enemy." Tertullian"Is it lawful to make an occupation of the sword when the Lord proclaims that he who uses the sword will perish by the sword? Will the son of peace take part in the battle when it does not become him even to sue at law?" Tertullian"So the more anyone excels in godliness, the more effective the help is that he renders to kings. This is a greater help than what is given by soldiers who go forth to fight and kill as many of the enemy as they can." Origen"Our prayers defeat all demons who stir up war. . . Accordingly, in this way, we are much more helpful to the kings than those who go into the field to fight for them." Origen"And murder - which is admitted to be a crime in the case of an individual - is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale. Impunity is claimed for the wicked deeds, not because they are guiltless- but because the cruelty is perpetrated on a grand scale!" Cyprian"Why would [the just man] carry on war and mix himself with the passions of others when his mind is engaged in perpetual peace with men?" Lactantius"Is the [military] laurel of triumph made of leaves, or of corpses? Is it adorned with ribbons, or with tombs? Is it wet with ointments, or with the tears of wives and mothers? It may be made of some [dead] Christians too. For Christ is also believed among the barbarians. TertullianModern day quotes (non-Christian)Retaliation is counter-poison and poison breeds more poison. The nectar of love alone can destroy the poison of hate. Armed conspiracies against something satanic is like matching Satans against Satan. "An eye for an eye only makes the world blind." -- Mohandas K. GhandiFighting fire with fire is rarely a good idea. It's much better to fight fire with water. Fighting for peace is like f*ing for virginity. The war on terrorism is an attempt to show that we will not accept the use of planes and bombs to kill people and destroy buildings.We will do so by killing people and destroying buildings with planes and bombs. How hypocritical is that? To repay evil for evil? It is undeniably wrong!Psalm 118:8 "It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man."Psalm 146:3 "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help."Jeremiah 17:5 "Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD."The question you must ask yourself is "Who would Jesus bomb?" Is one following the example of Jesus if one is bombing and killing other people?As you can see, Christians are told not to take part in the killing or judging of any person. Judging an action or dispute is perfectly acceptable. Christians choose unconditional love and forgiveness instead of "justice", and they leave judgment on other people up to God, as Jesus said to do. The wars of men, the courts of men, and all things associated with them will be around until the very Day of the Lord, when Jesus comes back in all his glory. But Christians that follow Jesus do not take any part in the killing or judgment of other people, because Jesus told us not to."Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I tell you? I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, hears my words, and acts on them. That one is like a man building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when a flood arose, the river burst against that house but could not shake it, because it had been well built. But the one who hears and does not act is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, immediately it fell, and great was the ruin of that house." (Luke 6:46-49) Why does our so-called "Christian nation" cry out 'Lord, Lord,' and yet does not do what Jesus said? He told us to love our enemies, and to bless those who curse us, and to turn the other cheek! That means love the terrorists, bless the terrorists, and give food and drink to the terrorists!Christ's Response to Terrorism: Love Your Enemies! Bless Those Who Curse You!The whole point of Jesus’ teaching is to tell disciples that their attitude toward "enemies" should be radically different from others. "If you do good to those who do good to you," Jesus added, "what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same" (Lk 6:32). So many people instinctively hate those who hate them and believe they are justified killing people who might kill them or their loved ones. In contrast to this, Jesus is saying: "Love your enemies, as God loves them." "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your tresspasses."Matthew 6:14-15An example of how Christian martyrs (aka the disciples) would have dealt with terrorists (watch) Type in on Youtube: "Israeli soldiers Palestinian girl"What would Jesus do? The Christians are His disciples. What would His disciples do? What will you do? The Lord is merciful indeed. While we were still His enemies in our sin, He loved us. We should ask His help us to follow in His example and love our enemies in turn. It isn’t easy. Our whole culture rebels against it. But through Christ who gives us strength, we can do it. Only He can deliver people from our natural selfishness. Yes, it’s natural for us to be selfish in the flesh. We must trust the Holy Spirit to show love to those for whom we may not feel love for. If we love our enemies and treat them well, we will truly show that Jesus is Lord of our lives.If you read all of that, you are to be commended. Thank you.
     
  2. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Our God is man of war. (Exodus 15:3) Even Christ allow us to use weapons to protect ourselves. (Luke 22:35-36) War is necessarily to stop evil committing greater evil. God in the Old Testament kills people because of their sins. The death penalty, the ordinances, statues is taken away in Christ. (Colossians 2:16) God expects us to be godly and follow His ways and strive to be perfect. (Leviticus 20:7, I Peter 1:15-16)Killing in itself is not a sin as there is always a time to kill (Ecclesiastes 3:3) We are to hate wars, but wars is necessary when time is given. (Ecclesiastes 3:8)One of God's commandment is "Thou shalt not murder" (Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17)Capital Punishment (which we call the Death Penalty in the U.S. at least) is also the work of God. (Genesis 9:6) This is only for Premeditate murder nowadays.
     
  3. beefy

    beefy New Member

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    Our God is man of war. (Exodus 15:3) Even Christ allow us to use weapons to protect ourselves. (Luke 22:35-36) War is necessarily to stop evil committing greater evil. God in the Old Testament kills people because of their sins. The death penalty, the ordinances, statues is taken away in Christ. (Colossians 2:16) God expects us to be godly and follow His ways and strive to be perfect. (Leviticus 20:7, I Peter 1:15-16)Killing in itself is not a sin as there is always a time to kill (Ecclesiastes 3:3) We are to hate wars, but wars is necessary when time is given. (Ecclesiastes 3:8)One of God's commandment is "Thou shalt not murder" (Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17)Capital Punishment (which we call the Death Penalty in the U.S. at least) is also the work of God. (Genesis 9:6) This is only for Premeditate murder nowadays.
    Jordan, I have a question for you. If you know that we are called to be imitators of Christ, as His disciples were..."Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ." 1 Corinthians 11:1then how is killing people imitating Christ? Did He kill people? Did His disciples kill people? Are you not His disciple? Then why would YOU kill people?Do not quote the Old Testament please. The Jews followed the Old Covenant. Christians follow the New Covenant. I explained that thoroughly in my post. If you like the Old Covenant better, then you should revert back to keeping human slaves, for that is also something that God allowed the Israelites to do."In speaking of a "new" covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." Hebrews 8:13By the very words of the Bible, the Old Covenant has been made obsolete. The "eye for an eye" doctrine has been replaced by Jesus' command to "love your enemies."Sorry, but if you believe the death penalty is the work of God, then you are clearly following the wrong covenant. Love your enemies. It is not I that commands you to do this, but Jesus. And Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15Jordan, will you keep Jesus' command? The terrorists curse you. Jesus says "Bless those who curse you." Bless the terrorists. The terrorists hate you. Jesus says, "do good to those who hate you." Do good to the terrorists. The terrorists are your enemy. Jesus says, "Love your enemies." Love the terrorists.Bless and love and do good to those terrorists, for the glory of God. They need it more now than ever. We are all worthy of death, for all have sinned and fallen short. We all deserve the death penalty, Jordan.Let me give you an illustration:When God forgives us through our repentance in Jesus Christ, he also removes our punishment for our sins. Instead, He loves us, unconditionally.We are called to imitate Christ. Therefore, as imitators of Christ, we are to forgive our enemies, and do as God does, and remove their punishment as well. We are to love them, as Jesus commanded and demostrated when He died on the cross for us, God's enemies."But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matthew 6:15 Understand this Jordan, if you do not forgive your enemies, and their trespasses against you, God will not forgive you, and your trespasses against Him.Understand? Christ's kingdom is not of this world. We are citizens of Christ's kingdom now. As memebers of Christ's kingdom, we love our enemies, rather than kill them. Turning the other cheek, rather than repaying evil for evil.Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. John 18:36Jesus will come back soon to establish His kingdom. And He is looking for followers of Christ, imitators of Christ, ones who show Christlike love to all in the face of persecution. He is looking for those who love Him. Those who love Him are those that keep His commandments. And He commanded us to "love our enemies."In what way is killing our enemies loving them? Do not even the nonbelievers do so, killing their enemies left and right?"And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same." Luke 6:33 By contrast, Jesus commands us to do good to those that do not do good to you. This includes the terrorists, for they are part of those that do not do good to us.Jordan, would you seek to save your life, even through self-defense? Then you will lose your life."Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." Luke 17:33Jesus calls you rather to lay down your life for your friends, as His imitator, not to take someone else's life in self-defense. In this way you will show Christ's love for them. "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13Jordan, will you take up a sword (or gun) in self-defense? Then you will perish with it."Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Matthew 26:52Even John the Batist told soldiers not to engage in violence. "And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages." Luke 3:14It is also recorded in Revelation that this will be the fate of those who take up the sword, that they will be killed with it."He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." Revelation 13:10I urge you, Jordan, imitate Christ. Do as Christ would do. Do as His disciples would do. They never hurt anyone. Instead, they loved everyone. They were martyrs for their faith, for their trust in Jesus. YOU are called to follow their example. To be a Christian, is to be a disciple of Christ. And we are called to go and make disciples of all nations. I am trying to make a better disciple out of you now, by reminding you of Christ's command to "Love your enemy."
     
  4. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (beefy @ Apr 23 2009, 02:36 AM)
    QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 23 2009, 12:35 AM)
    Our God is man of war. (Exodus 15:3) Even Christ allow us to use weapons to protect ourselves. (Luke 22:35-36) War is necessarily to stop evil committing greater evil. God in the Old Testament kills people because of their sins. The death penalty, the ordinances, statues is taken away in Christ. (Colossians 2:16) God expects us to be godly and follow His ways and strive to be perfect. (Leviticus 20:7, I Peter 1:15-16)Killing in itself is not a sin as there is always a time to kill (Ecclesiastes 3:3) We are to hate wars, but wars is necessary when time is given. (Ecclesiastes 3:8)One of God's commandment is "Thou shalt not murder" (Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17)Capital Punishment (which we call the Death Penalty in the U.S. at least) is also the work of God. (Genesis 9:6) This is only for Premeditate murder nowadays.
    Jordan, I have a question for you. If you know that we are called to be imitators of Christ, as His disciples were..."Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ." 1 Corinthians 11:1then how is killing people imitating Christ? Did He kill people? Did His disciples kill people? Are you not His disciple? Then why would YOU kill people?Do not quote the Old Testament please. The Jews followed the Old Covenant. Christians follow the New Covenant. I explained that thoroughly in my post. If you like the Old Covenant better, then you should revert back to keeping human slaves, for that is also something that God allowed the Israelites to do."In speaking of a "new" covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." Hebrews 8:13By the very words of the Bible, the Old Covenant has been made obsolete. The "eye for an eye" doctrine has been replaced by Jesus' command to "love your enemies."Sorry, but if you believe the death penalty is the work of God, then you are clearly following the wrong covenant. Love your enemies. It is not I that commands you to do this, but Jesus. And Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15Jordan, will you keep Jesus' command? The terrorists curse you. Jesus says "Bless those who curse you." Bless the terrorists. The terrorists hate you. Jesus says, "do good to those who hate you." Do good to the terrorists. The terrorists are your enemy. Jesus says, "Love your enemies." Love the terrorists.Bless and love and do good to those terrorists, for the glory of God. They need it more now than ever. We are all worthy of death, for all have sinned and fallen short. We all deserve the death penalty, Jordan.Let me give you an illustration:When God forgives us through our repentance in Jesus Christ, he also removes our punishment for our sins. Instead, He loves us, unconditionally.We are called to imitate Christ. Therefore, as imitators of Christ, we are to forgive our enemies, and do as God does, and remove their punishment as well. We are to love them, as Jesus commanded and demostrated when He died on the cross for us, God's enemies."But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matthew 6:15 Understand this Jordan, if you do not forgive your enemies, and their trespasses against you, God will not forgive you, and your trespasses against Him.Understand? Christ's kingdom is not of this world. We are citizens of Christ's kingdom now. As memebers of Christ's kingdom, we love our enemies, rather than kill them. Turning the other cheek, rather than repaying evil for evil.Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. John 18:36Jesus will come back soon to establish His kingdom. And He is looking for followers of Christ, imitators of Christ, ones who show Christlike love to all in the face of persecution. He is looking for those who love Him. Those who love Him are those that keep His commandments. And He commanded us to "love our enemies."In what way is killing our enemies loving them? Do not even the nonbelievers do so, killing their enemies left and right?"And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same." Luke 6:33 By contrast, Jesus commands us to do good to those that do not do good to you. This includes the terrorists, for they are part of those that do not do good to us.Jordan, would you seek to save your life, even through self-defense? Then you will lose your life."Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." Luke 17:33Jesus calls you rather to lay down your life for your friends, as His imitator, not to take someone else's life in self-defense. In this way you will show Christ's love for them. "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13Jordan, will you take up a sword (or gun) in self-defense? Then you will perish with it."Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Matthew 26:52Even John the Batist told soldiers not to engage in violence. "And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages." Luke 3:14It is also recorded in Revelation that this will be the fate of those who take up the sword, that they will be killed with it."He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." Revelation 13:10I urge you, Jordan, imitate Christ. Do as Christ would do. Do as His disciples would do. They never hurt anyone. Instead, they loved everyone. They were martyrs for their faith, for their trust in Jesus. YOU are called to follow their example. To be a Christian, is to be a disciple of Christ. And we are called to go and make disciples of all nations. I am trying to make a better disciple out of you now, by reminding you of Christ's command to "Love your enemy."Imitate Christ? ....You say, the Jews follow the Old Testament, and the Christians follow the New Testament, right? If we are to only follow Christ, why did and is Christ quoting Old Testament scriptures over and over if we aren't to follow the Old Testament? Did you not know that Christ came not to destroy the Law? This statement of yours is pure nonsense. Nothing but speculation.Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.Matthew 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.Why did Christ use a weapon to overturn the moneychangers at Jerusalem if we aren't allowed to use a weapon for self defense as witness in Luke? (Luke 22:35-36)John 2:12 - After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.John 2:13 - And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.John 2:14 - And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:John 2:15 - And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;The word for cords is G4979 σχοινίον1) a cord or rope made of rushes2) a ropeRegardless what you or anyone (including me) thinks is cruel... What Christ did is right and is done out of love.Love is not always being sweet, gentle etc. Have not heard of Tough Love in which both the Old Testament and New Testament clearly over and over contains it.Without the Old Testament, the New Testament means nothing. Without the Old Testament, the New Testament doesn't exist. The Old Testament is New Testament concealed and the New Testament is Old Testament revealed.To not be able to self defense is very cowardly, and God hates cowardice. So does Christ. Self-Defense includes protecting your family, your friends from any means necessarily that Evil doers would have done if one doesn't fight back in self defense.Woe unto them who thinks God wants us to be floor mats and let evil reign supreme. God will not be happy about it...Love is NOT narrow. Love has many forms. Love IS a wide variety, Love does NOT come in a box. P-E-R-I-O-D.God expects us to use common sense.
     
  5. beefy

    beefy New Member

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    Unfortunately Jordan, you have avoided my questions in the name of "common sense."Do not call my statements nonsense. I did not say that Christians do not follow the Old Testament. I said that Christians follow the New Covenant, because the Old Covenant has been made obsolete. Do not twist my words.Jesus included in this New Covenant the Ten Commandments. "Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother." Mark10:19However, the eye for an eye doctrine, (aka doctrine of the death penalty) was replaced by "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies" and "do good to those who hate you." Would you dare to call Christ's words nonsense?Jesus may have driven people out of the temple, but He did not hurt them. He drove them out. Where do you get the idea that it is okay to kill people just because Jesus got angry a few times?You think that martyrdom is cowardly, eh? Would you call Jesus and His disciples cowards? Would you call Martin Luther King Jr. a coward, because he did not violently defend himself? Would you call Ghandi a coward? It takes more guts, strength, and courage to sacrifice one's life than it does to hurt another person of God's creation.The only reason one "defends" one's family is because of the fear of death. Don't you know that "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18 ?Do not continue to avoid my questions. I challenge you to answer them, now. They are not rhetorical."All who take up the sword shall perish with the sword." Jordan, answer me, do you want to die?"Love your enemies." Answer me, do you think that taking someone else's life is an expression of love for one's enemy?Answer my question. Do you want to die by taking up the sword? Is that common sense?Answer my question. Are you loving your enemy by killing them?Answer these questions.
     
  6. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (beefy @ Apr 23 2009, 03:19 PM)
    Unfortunately Jordan, you have avoided my questions in the name of "common sense."Do not call my statements nonsense. I did not say that Christians do not follow the Old Testament. I said that Christians follow the New Covenant, because the Old Covenant has been made obsolete. Do not twist my words.Jesus included in this New Covenant the Ten Commandments. "Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother." Mark10:19However, the eye for an eye doctrine, (aka doctrine of the death penalty) was replaced by "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies" and "do good to those who hate you." Would you dare to call Christ's words nonsense?Jesus may have driven people out of the temple, but He did not hurt them. He drove them out. Where do you get the idea that it is okay to kill people just because Jesus got angry a few times?You think that martyrdom is cowardly, eh? Would you call Jesus and His disciples cowards? Would you call Martin Luther King Jr. a coward, because he did not violently defend himself? Would you call Ghandi a coward? It takes more guts, strength, and courage to sacrifice one's life than it does to hurt another person of God's creation.The only reason one "defends" one's family is because of the fear of death. Don't you know that "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18 ?Do not continue to avoid my questions. I challenge you to answer them, now. They are not rhetorical."All who take up the sword shall perish with the sword." Jordan, answer me, do you want to die?"Love your enemies." Answer me, do you think that taking someone else's life is an expression of love for one's enemy?Answer my question. Do you want to die by taking up the sword? Is that common sense?Answer my question. Are you loving your enemy by killing them?Answer these questions.
    Do I want to die? The flesh death means nothing to me.Is taking one's life away right in order to protect your family and friends from harm... let's say a murderer wants to kill your family, and/or friends... Is it morally right? Yes 100% Is letting a murderer kill your family and/or friends and you do nothing... is it morally right and loving? NO! This is exactly what Satan wants us to believe.Are you loving your enemy by killing them? Yes, in order to protect your love ones... So yes, you can still love the enemy that you killed. So yes God ordered us to kill the premeditate MURDERER and take him back to God where he belongs.
     
  7. beefy

    beefy New Member

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    Actually, martyrdom is not about standing by and doing nothing. It is about sacrficing your life for the love of your family, taking the bullet for them.Your reasoning that you could love your enemy while killing him is ridiculous. Would you show love to your family like that, by killing them? Jesus said "If anyone loves fahter or mother more than me, he is not worthy of me. If anyone loves sister or brother more than me, He is not worthy of me."Do you love your family more than you love Jesus? Will you rather show your love for Jesus by loving your enemy instead?If the flesh means nothing to you, then give it up. Give up your life for Christ's sake. Be a martyr if you are in a situation like that. With reasoning like what you have just demonstrated, loving someone by destroying them, I can be of no further help to you. Your mind, at this moment, is closed to the words of Jesus, His words that called you to "love your enemies."Remember what was said in the Bible. "You reap what you sow." If you reap in violence, in violence you will also reap.If you sow in love, you will reap in love. I have given you this warning so that you will know that Jesus never would have demonstrated His love for His creation by ripping someone's guts out with a bayonet. And you will not demonstrate any love with that method either. All you will feel is the guilt of knowing you just killed someone's father, or brother, sister, or mother. The pain you have caused the person and the person's family is immeasurable. His cries of anguish and despair as you rip the life from him without mercy will haunt you in your dreams, if you choose to follow such a path. You have been warned, Jordan.If you would not do an action in Jesus' name, you should not do it at all. For "anything not of faith is sin."Will you tell him, "I kill you in Jesus' name! I rip out your heart in Jesus' name! I blow your brains out in Jesus' name!"? Will you demand your "right" to life in the name of Him who gave up all of His rights to save yours? Think about it. I cannot but give you the words of Jesus to try and help you. God bless you. May you heed His words.
     
  8. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (beefy @ Apr 23 2009, 04:50 PM)
    Actually, martyrdom is not about standing by and doing nothing. It is about sacrficing your life for the love of your family, taking the bullet for them.Your reasoning that you could love your enemy while killing him is ridiculous. Would you show love to your family like that, by killing them? Jesus said "If anyone loves fahter or mother more than me, he is not worthy of me. If anyone loves sister or brother more than me, He is not worthy of me."Do you love your family more than you love Jesus? Will you rather show your love for Jesus by loving your enemy instead?If the flesh means nothing to you, then give it up. Give up your life for Christ's sake. Be a martyr if you are in a situation like that. With reasoning like what you have just demonstrated, loving someone by destroying them, I can be of no further help to you. Your mind, at this moment, is closed to the words of Jesus, His words that called you to "love your enemies."Remember what was said in the Bible. "You reap what you sow." If you reap in violence, in violence you will also reap.If you sow in love, you will reap in love. I have given you this warning so that you will know that Jesus never would have demonstrated His love for His creation by ripping someone's guts out with a bayonet. And you will not demonstrate any love with that method either. All you will feel is the guilt of knowing you just killed someone's father, or brother, sister, or mother. The pain you have caused the person and the person's family is immeasurable. His cries of anguish and despair as you rip the life from him without mercy will haunt you in your dreams, if you choose to follow such a path. You have been warned, Jordan.If you would not do an action in Jesus' name, you should not do it at all. For "anything not of faith is sin."Will you tell him, "I kill you in Jesus' name! I rip out your heart in Jesus' name! I blow your brains out in Jesus' name!"? Will you demand your "right" to life in the name of Him who gave up all of His rights to save yours? Think about it. I cannot but give you the words of Jesus to try and help you. God bless you. May you heed His words.
    Quite frankly you are walking on dangerous grounds beefy... The Black Bold words on your quote is exactly what I was saying... Sacrificing one's life to save others.Your definition of Love is not Christ was talking about and is downright blasphemous. So I'll just leave it where it is.You are free to believe anything you want. [​IMG]
     
  9. beefy

    beefy New Member

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    It's not about standing idly by while others are being attacked and murdered.Have you not heard of the Orthodox pastor who saved lives of hundreds of Jews during the Holocaust?They had the Jews down at the train station, and they had them in a barbed-wire enclosure. It was a rainy, misty night. Out of the darkness, at 11:00, the leader of the Orthodox church of Bulgaria, this seven foot four figure, with a long flowing white beard hanging over his black robe, emerges out of the fog. Can you imagine the drama of this? And then from behind him come about 300 of the members of his congregation. They say his gait, his walk was so fast, that the other men had to run just to keep up with him. He came to the entrance of the barbed-wire enclosure, and the S.S. guard pointed their machine guns at him and said, "you can't go in there, father." He laughed at them. That's guts. Brushed the machine guns aside, and marched in among the Jews. They gathered around him, seeing what the Christian leader of Bulgaria had to say in their moment of distress, in their moment of need. They were crying, some of them were hysterical, they knew they were heading for Auschwitz, unless something miraculous happened. And something miraculous did.The Christian leader raised his arms, quoted one verse of scripture, and changed the destiny of the nation. Here's the verse. Quoting from the book of Ruth, he said to the Jews, who were hysterical, knowing they were about to be carted off to Auschwitz to die. "Whither so ever thou goest, I will go. Your people will be my people. Your God will be my God." Ruth 1:16The Jews cheered. The Christians were outside the barbed-wire enclosure. They cheered. The noise was so great, that people came out of their houses, and started coming down in increasing numbers to the train station. The hundreds grew to thousands. The S.S. troopers knew there was no way they were going to get away with rounding up these Jews and carrying them off to Auschwitz. The train left without the Jews, and never returned again. And not a single Jew ever died in the concentration camp, if he was a Bulgarian. Because the Church of Jesus Christ boldly stood up and said, "We're not going to kill enemy, we are going to identify with the suffering, and we will suffer with them." This is Jesus' way.All the while this pastor obeyed Jesus' commands to "love your enemy," "do good to those that hate you," and to be "as harmless as doves." Matthew 10:16Will you imitate Jesus and follow His example? I urge you to do so, all of you. God bless you.
     
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