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Jesus in Islam

Discussion in 'Inter-Faith Discussion' started by yasoooo, Mar 20, 2018.

  1. yasoooo

    yasoooo Member

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    the Quran describes how Mary, the mother of Jesus, was approached by an angel from God, bringing her tidings she had never imagined: that she will give birth to a son, a Messiah, who will be of the righteous and will be a prophet of God, calling the Children of Israel (the Israelites) to the straight path of God.


    “(And mention) when the angels said, ‘O Mary, indeed God gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary – distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near (to God). He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous.” (Quran 3:45-46)


    Naturally, for Mary, this news was both strange and seemingly impossible.


    “She said, ‘My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?’ (The angel) said, “Such is God; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is. And He will teach him writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel.” (Quran 3:47-48)


    The very nature of Jesus is so special, that God compares the uniqueness of His creation to that of the first man and prophet, Adam.


    “Indeed, the example of Jesus to God is like that of Adam. He created him from dust; then He said to him, ‘Be,’ and he was.” (Quran 3:59)

    Jesus and His Miracles


    Jesus became one of the greatest prophets of God, and was sent to the Children of Israel in order to confirm the teachings of his predecessor, the Prophet Moses. His birth was a miracle, and, like all prophets of God, he was granted several miracles. He approached his people, telling them:


    “And (make him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (who will say), ‘Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord’ in that I design for you from the clay (that which is) like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of God. And I cure the blind (from birth) and the leper, and I give life to the dead – by permission of God. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers. And (I have come) confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear God and obey me. Indeed, God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path.” (Quran 3:49-51)

    Jesus’s Followers


    The Quran continues the story of Jesus by relating several incidents of his life and his disciples.


    “But when Jesus felt (persistence in) disbelief from them, he said, ‘Who are my supporters for (the cause of) God?’ The disciples said,” We are supporters for God. We have believed in God and testify that we are Muslims (submitting to Him.) Our Lord, we have believed in what You revealed and have followed the messenger (i.e., Jesus), so register us among the witnesses (to truth).” (Quran 3:52-53)


    In another incident, after which an entire surah (chapter) of the Quran is named, the disciples of Jesus asked him for another miracle.


    “(And remember) when the disciples said, ‘O Jesus, Son of Mary, can your Lord send down to us a table (spread with food) from the heaven?’ (Jesus) said, ‘Fear God, if you should be believers.’ They said, ‘We wish to eat from it and let our hearts be reassured and know that you have been truthful to us and be among its witnesses.’ Said Jesus, the son of Mary, ‘O God, our Lord, send down to us a table (spread with food) from the heaven to be for us a festival for the first of us and the last of us and a sign from You. And provide for us, and You are the best of providers.’” (Quran 5:112-114)


    God sent them the table they had asked for, but not without a warning.


    “God said, ‘Indeed, I will sent it down to you, but whoever disbelieves afterwards from among you – then indeed will I punish him with a punishment by which I have not punished anyone among the worlds.’” (Quran 5:115)

    The End of the Story?


    The story of Jesus never really ends in the Quran, as we are told that Jesus was not killed, but that rather, God raised His beloved prophet up to Him.


    “(Mention) when God said, ‘O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify (i.e., free) you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you (in submission to God alone) superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ. And as for those who disbelieved, I will punish them with a severe punishment in this world and the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers.’ But as for those who believed and did righteous deeds, He will give them in full their rewards, and God does not like the wrongdoers.” (Quran 3:55-57)


    The Quran also points out that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified. Speaking of the Children of Israel, God faults their accusations against Mary as well as their claim that they killed Jesus.


    “And (We cursed them) for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander. And (for) their saying, ‘Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of God.’ And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but (another) was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, God raised him to Himself. And ever is God Exalted in Might and Wise.” (Quran 4:156-158)


    The Quran confirms that Jesus was raised up by God, and the Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, reassured us that Jesus will be sent down to earth once again before the Day of Judgment.

     
  2. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Old Testament: Numbers 11:12 Have I conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers? Whence should I have flesh to give unto all this people? for they weep unto me, saying, Give us flesh, that we may eat. I am not able to bear all this people alone, because it is too heavy for me.

    New Testament: John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

    Back to Old Testament: Isaiah 40: 10-11 Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

    Your prophet is a false prophet. Jesus Christ, the Lamb, is what is on the table in the wilderness. If your prophet can convince people Christ is not is what on the table as a perfect, Once-and-for-all sacrifice for the atonement of sin, then no one eats. If no one eats of His flesh or drinks of His blood, then no one is clean.

    If Christ, GOD in the flesh was never crucified, then no one eats. If no one eats, then no one is clean. The same offer of eternal life is to you. Open your eyes and see that what your prophet has done is: butcher the word but that still doesn't change the truth.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
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  3. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    This miraculous conception is recorded in the Bible simply as ``The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God."'' (Luke 1:35). No sexual connotation was involved whatsoever.

    This was commented on by:-
    Al-Saddi's version of the miracle states the following:
    ``He took hold of her sleeve and breathed into her side, and it entered her breast and she conceived. Then Mary's sister, the wife of Zachariah, came to visit with and help her, and while she was assisting her she knew that Mary was pregnant and Mary mentioned her state to her.
    The wife of Zachariah said, "I find the child in my womb worships that which is in yours."

    Interesting that a prophet worshipped another, which is shirk, unless that other is more than just a man?
    then there is this quote:-
    Al-Baidawi commented on the miraculous birth of Jesus,
    "That distinction sets Christ apart from other humans and messengers, because He was born without any human embrace or relationship."

    Jesus is unique in his birth and in his life. No one did as many or such amazing miracles as he did. Then we come to his death and the confussion that exists in the muslim accounts.
    The bible is clear Jesus was arrested tried, beaten and exceuted and on the third day he rose from the dead.
    The quran and hadith are not clear. Did he die or did another be changed so it appeared that Jesus died? Who changed this other person to appear to be Jesus? Why was this kept secret from the Christians?
    Or was Jesus taken up into heaven, if he was, what happen in Jerusalem?

    Another question.

    Why should an account written over 300 years after the event be more trustworthy than one written within the life time of the eyewitnesses?
     
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  4. tabletalk

    tabletalk Well-Known Member

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    You said: "The Quran also points out that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified."

    Then, the Quran lies.
     
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  5. yasoooo

    yasoooo Member

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    The idea of Jesus dying on the cross is central to the Christian belief. It represents the conviction that Jesus died for the sins of mankind. The crucifixion of Jesus is a vital doctrine in Christianity; however Muslims reject it completely. Before describing what Muslims believe about Jesus’ crucifixion, it may be useful to understand the Islamic reaction to the notion of original sin.

    When Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree in paradise, they were not tempted by a serpent. It was Satan who deceived and cajoled them, whereupon they exercised their free will and made an error in judgement. Eve does not bear the burden of this mistake alone. Together, Adam and Eve realised their disobedience, felt remorse and begged for God’s forgiveness. God, in his infinite mercy and wisdom, forgave them. Islam has no concept of original sin; each person bears responsibility for his own deeds.

    “And no bearer of burdens shall bear another’s burden”. (Quran 35:18)

    There is no need for God, a son of God, or even a Prophet of God to sacrifice himself for mankind’s sins in order to buy forgiveness. Islam refuses this view entirely. The foundation of Islam rests on knowing with certainty that nothing should we worshipped but God alone. Forgiveness emanates from the One True God; so, when a person seeks forgiveness, he must turn to God submissively with true remorse and beg forgiveness, promising not to repeat the sin. Then and only then will sins be forgiven.

    In the light of Islam’s understanding of original sin and forgiveness, we can see that Islam teaches that Jesus did not come to atone for the sins of mankind; rather, his purpose was to reaffirm the message of the Prophets before him.

    “.. None has the right to be worshipped but God, the One and the Only True God…” (Quran 3:62)

    Muslims do not believe in the crucifixion of Jesus, nor do they believe that he died.

    The Crucifixion
    Jesus’ message was rejected by most of the Israelites as well as the Roman authorities. Those who believed formed a small band of followers around him, known as the disciples. The Israelites plotted and conspired against Jesus and formulated a plan to have him assassinated. He was to be executed in public, in a particularly gruesome manner, well known in the Roman Empire: crucifixion.

    Crucifixion was considered a shameful way to die, and “citizens” of the Roman Empire were exempt from this punishment. It was designed to not only prolong the agony of death, but to mutilate the body. The Israelites planned this humiliating death for their Messiah – Jesus, the messenger of God. God in his infinite mercy prevented this abominable event by putting the resemblance of Jesus on somebody else and elevating Jesus alive, body and soul, to heaven. The Quran is silent about the exact details of just who this person was, but we know and believe with certainty that it was not Prophet Jesus.

    Muslims believe that the Quran and the authentic narrations of Prophet Muhammad contain all the knowledge mankind needs in order to worship and live according to God’s commandments. Therefore, if small details are not explained, it is because God in His infinite wisdom has judged these details to be of no benefit to us. The Quran explains, in God’s own words, the conspiracy against Jesus and His plan to outwit the Israelites and raise Jesus to heaven.

    “And they plotted to kill Jesus and God planned too. And God is the Best of the planners.” (Quran 3:54)

    “And because of their boasting, "We killed Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God." But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man, and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge; they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely, they killed him not. But God raised him (Jesus) up unto Himself. And God is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise.” (Quran 4:157-158)

    Jesus Did Not Die
    The Israelites and the Roman authorities were not able to harm Jesus. God says clearly that He took Jesus up to Himself and cleared him of the false statements made in Jesus’ name.

    “O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you of the forged statement that Jesus is God’s son.” (Quran 3:55)

    In the previous verse, when God said He “will take” Jesus, he uses the word mutawaffeeka. Without a clear understanding of the richness of the Arabic language, and knowledge of the levels of meaning in many words, it may be possible to misunderstand God’s meaning. In the Arabic language today the word mutawaffeeka is sometimes used to denote death, or even sleep. In this verse of Quran, however, the original meaning is used and the comprehensiveness of the word denotes that God raised Jesus to himself, completely. Thus, he was alive at his ascension, body and soul, without any injury or defect.

    Muslims believe Jesus is not dead, and that he will return to this world in the last days before the Day of Judgement. Prophet Mohammad said to his companions:

    “How will you be when the son of Mary, Jesus descends amongst you and he will judge people by the Law of the Quran and not by the law of Gospel. (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)

    God reminds us in the Quran that the Day of Judgement is a Day that we cannot avoid and cautions us that the descent of Jesus is a sign of its nearness.

    “And he, Jesus, son of Mary shall be a known sign for the Hour. Therefore have no doubt concerning it. And follow Me! This is the Straight Path.” (Quran 43:61)


    Jesus peace be upon him

    Yet live to God at the age of young people did not die so far

    The person who crucified him is one of the disciples of Christ (Jude), who is told about Christ and Wuxi and betrayed by the Romans

    And the punishment of Judah
    # God gave a semi-Jesus peace be upon him Judas the traitor
    And so
    God saved Jesus peace be upon him, and God raised up to heaven until the coming to earth again to kill the Antichrist, and then die like any man should die in the end
    Therefore, the Islamic belief about Jesus’ crucifixion and death is clear. There was a plot to crucify Jesus but it did not succeed; Jesus did not die, but ascended to heaven. In the last days leading up to the Day of Judgement, Jesus will return to this world and continue

    his message.

    In a saying of Prophet Muhammad, narrated by Abu Hurairah, the Prophet said:


    “By the One in Whose hand is my self, definitely the son of Maryam will soon descend among you as a just judge, and he will break the cross, kill the pig, and abolish the jizyah (tribute), and wealth will be so abundant that no one will accept it, until a single prostration will be better than the world and everything in it.” (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)


    God sent the angel Gabriel* to teach Muhammad* the exact words that he should repeat to the people. The words are therefore not his own; they did not come from his own thoughts, but were put into his mouth by the angel. These are written down in the Qur’an, word for word exactly as they came from God.

    Now that we know that prophet we must listen to him, for, according to the Bible, God says: “I will punish anyone who refuses to obey him” (Good News Bible, Deut. 18:19).


    Muhammad: A Prophet for Our Time





     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  6. yasoooo

    yasoooo Member

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    The Gospel has been distorted

    by
    Matthew - Mark - Luke - John

    Recognized by the scientists themselves Christians















    احمد ديدات يسأل المسيحيين من هو سيدكم ومعلمكم الاول ؟



    In the Quran Allaah informs us that He revealed a number of books, including the pages of Prophet Abraham (Ibraaheem may Allaah exalt his mention), the Psalms of Prophet David (Daawood may Allaah exalt his mention), the Torah of Prophet Moses (Moosaa may Allaah exalt his mention), the Injeel (Gospel) of Prophet Jesus (‘Eesaa may Allaah exalt his mention), and finally, the Quran of Prophet Muhammad sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ).


    Of these revealed texts only the Quran remains intact in its original form. All of the others (as complete books) have been lost, their remains have survived only as fragments or tampered with in some way so as to make their authenticity doubtful. Nowhere in the Quran is the Bible even mentioned, to say nothing of its being among the revealed texts of Allah, or as Christian claim “The Word of God.” Further, we know from respected scholars that although some fragments of the Psalms, the Torah, and the Injeel (the teachings of Prophet Jesus) may be found in the Bible, comprised of the Old and New Testaments, the Bible cannot rightfully be called “The Word of God.” Why is this so?



    As one publisher (Tyndale House Publishers, Inc., Wheaton, Illinois) stated: “The Bible may look like one book, but it is actually sixty-six books in one. Thirty-nine books make up what we call the Old Testament, and twenty-seven make up the New Testament. It is possible that more than forty writers were used by God to write all sixty-six books.” (Quoted from the “Holy Bible” – New Living Translation, Gift & Award Edition, l997, p. vii)

    So if the Bible is neither narrated by God nor written by Him, and, as such, is not ‘the word of God,’ then what is it? By any objective criteria, the Bible is a book containing a compilation of stories, legends, folk tales, folk lore, myths, sagas, narratives,



    poetry, fragments of scriptures (fragments from the Psalms, the Torah, and the Injeel as already mentioned), letters (esp. in New Testament), visions, dreams, accounts of events from doubtful sources (not eye witnesses), editors’ or scribes’ notes, as well as human errors.

    For those who believe in it, it is a book that has historical, cultural, moral and ethical values, and a source of spiritual teaching and guidance. It is a book held in high esteem, primarily by Christians who see it as a divine book and the source of their religious beliefs. But, in the final analysis it is only a book with many limitations and imperfections which disqualify it from being called “The Word of God.” Whoever makes such a claim then the burden of proof rests with him. On the contrary, the Glorious



    Quran is the Speech of Allaah and, through the Angel Gabriel, was revealed to Prophet Muhammad sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ); later compiled into a book more than 14 centuries ago it remains preserved in its original form until today.

    Some common misunderstandings about the Bible include the following:


    The Bible is one book, the Old Testament. The Bible contains sixty-six books (or more depending upon the denomination one belongs to).

    The Old Testament (OT) is the Torah followed by the Jews. The OT contains some fragments of the Torah which was lost and the Psalms, but the Talmud is the book followed by the Jews and is totally unrelated to the Bible.



    The New Testament (NT) is the Gospel of Prophet Jesus, or the Injeel. It is neither. It is made up of twenty-seven books, none of which was narrated or written by Prophet Jesus although the NT may contain fragments of the Injeel (sayings and teachings of Prophet Jesus). The Injeel as revealed through Prophet Jesus has been lost. The fragments which may be cited in the NT may not be authentic or in their proper context. So it is erroneous to equate the NT with the Injeel mentioned in the Quran.



    The Bible is a holy book, narrated, dictated by God and is infallible. While this is a claim, this misconception has already been addressed. Since the Bible is ‘only’ a book, there is no need to call it a forgery, a corrupted text, etc. The Quran is the only authentic “Word of God,” His Speech, and Allah has promised to protect it from distortion of any kind until the Day of Judgment and He has kept His promise. Not one letter or syllable has been changed over the past l4 centuries.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  7. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    Please supply the sources. Where have they written this?
     
  8. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    The quran was not written by mohamed buyt was spoken by him and recorded by his followers.[Zaid b. Thabit said:] 'The Prophet died and the Qur'an had not been assembled into a single place.' (p. 118, Ahmad b. `Ali b. Muhammad al `Asqalani, ibn Hajar, "Fath al Bari", 13 vols, Cairo, 1939/1348, vol. 9, p. 9) and
    The Muslim sources are thus quite clear that Abu Bakr and `Umar were responsible for the first collection of the Qur'an texts following the death of the Muhammad. Discordant voices were nonetheless heard, Abu Bakr died and the Qur'an had not been collected; `Umar was killed and the Qur'an had not been collected.' (p. 229)

    You claim that the quran is more reliable than the bible yet are unable to show that the quran is more reliable than the bible.
     
  9. yasoooo

    yasoooo Member

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    Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul Never Met Jesus - ...

     
  10. yasoooo

    yasoooo Member

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    The Quran or The Bible Which is God's Word ? Sheikh ...



    It is only enough that The Holy Quran

    No changed
    1400 years ago
    God save The Holy Quran

    the Gospel and the Torah
    distorted
    The entire Quran was however also recorded in writing at the time of revelation from the Prophet’s dictation, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, by some of his literate companions, the most prominent of them being Zaid ibn Thabit.[1] Others among his noble scribes were Ubayy ibn Ka’b, Ibn Mas’ud, Mu’awiyah ibn Abi-Sufyan, Khalid ibn Waleed and Zubayr ibn Awwam.[2] The verses were recorded on leather, parchment, scapulae (shoulder bones of animals) and the stalks of date palms.[3]


    The codification of the Quran (i.e. into a ‘book form’) was done soon after the Battle of Yamamah (11AH/633CE), after the Prophet’s death, during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr. Many companions became martyrs at that battle, and it was feared that unless a written copy of the entire revelation was produced, large parts of the Quran might be lost with the death of those who had memorized it. Therefore, at the suggestion of Umar to collect the Quran in the form of writing, Zaid ibn Thabit was requested by Abu Bakr to head a committee which would gather together the scattered recordings of the Quran and prepare a mushaf - loose sheets which bore the entire revelation on them.[4] To safeguard the compilation from errors, the committee accepted only material which had been written down in the presence of the Prophet himself, and which could be verified by at least two reliable witnesses who had actually heard the Prophet recite the passage in question[5]. Once completed and unanimously approved of by the Prophet’s Companions, these sheets were kept with the Caliph Abu Bakr (d. 13AH/634CE), then passed on to the Caliph Umar (13-23AH/634-644CE), and then Umar’s daughter and the Prophet’s widow, Hafsah[6].


    The third Caliph Uthman (23AH-35AH/644-656CE) requested Hafsah to send him the manuscript of the Quran which was in her safekeeping, and ordered the production of several bounded copies of it (masaahif, sing. mushaf). This task was entrusted to the Companions Zaid ibn Thabit, Abdullah ibn Az-Zubair, Sa’eed ibn As-’As, and Abdur-Rahman ibn Harith ibn Hisham.[7] Upon completion (in 25AH/646CE), Uthman returned the original manuscript to Hafsah and sent the copies to the major Islamic provinces.


    A number of non-Muslim scholars who have studied the issue of the compilation and preservation of the Quran also have stated its authenticity. John Burton, at the end of his substantial work on the Quran’s compilation, states that the Quran as we have it today is:


    “…the text which has come down to us in the form in which it was organized and approved by the Prophet…. What we have today in our hands is the mushaf of Muhammad.[8]


    Kenneth Cragg describes the transmission of the Quran from the time of revelation to today as occurring in “an unbroken living sequence of devotion.”[9] Schwally concurs that:


    “As far as the various pieces of revelation are concerned, we may be confident that their text has been generally transmitted exactly as it was found in the Prophet’s legacy.”[10]


    The historical credibility of the Quran is further established by the fact that one of the copies sent out by the Caliph Uthman is still in existence today. It lies in the Museum of the City of Tashkent in Uzbekistan, Central Asia.[11] According to Memory of the World Program, UNESCO, an arm of the United Nations, ‘it is the definitive version, known as the Mushaf of Uthman.’[12]


    This manuscript, held by the Muslim Board of Uzbekistan, is the earliest existent written version of the Quran. It is the definitive version, known as the Mushaf of Othman. Image courtesy of Memory of the World Register, UNESCO.





    A facsimile of the mushaf in Tashkent is available at the Columbia University Library in the US.[13] This copy is proof that the text of the Quran we have in circulation today is identical with that of the time of the Prophet and his companions. A copy of the mushaf sent to Syria (duplicated before a fire in 1310AH/1892CE destroyed the Jaami’ Masjid where it was housed) also exists in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul[14], and an early manuscript on gazelle parchment exists in Dar al-Kutub as-Sultaniyyah in Egypt. More ancient manuscripts from all periods of Islamic history found in the Library of Congress in Washington, the Chester Beatty Museum in Dublin (Ireland) and the London Museum have been compared with those in Tashkent, Turkey and Egypt, with results confirming that there have not been any changes in the text from its original time of writing.[15]


    The Institute for Koranforschung, for example, in the University of Munich (Germany), collected over 42,000 complete or incomplete ancient copies of the Quran. After around fifty years of research, they reported that there was no variance between the various copies, except the occasional mistakes of the copyist which could easily be ascertained. This Institute was unfortunately destroyed by bombs during WWII.[16]


    Thus, due to the efforts of the early companions, with God’s assistance, the Quran as we have it today is recited in the same manner as it was revealed. This makes it the only religious scripture that is still completely retained and understood in its original language. Indeed, as Sir William Muir states, “There is probably no other book in the world which has remained twelve centuries (now fourteen) with so pure a text.”[17]


    The evidence above confirms God’s promise in the Quran:


    “Verily, We have revealed the Reminder, and verily We shall preserve it.” (Quran 15:9)


    The Quran has been preserved in both oral and written form in a way no other book has, and with each form providing a check and balance for the authenticity of the other


     

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  11. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. Although it is not an idea but is truth.
     
  12. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Then you reject God.
     
  13. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    As you know God's word cannot be changed. You have said this several times.
    As you also know Mohammed gave instructions in the quran to study the bible.

    If God's word cannot be changed how is it that you say that the bible has been changed?
     
  14. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    Yasoo where have they written this. I'm not interested in youtube.
    If scientists haverecorded therir research on the bible I would like to read what they wrote.
     
  15. yasoooo

    yasoooo Member

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    The Prophets of the Old Testament such as Abraham, Noah and Jonah never preached that God is part of a Trinity, and did not believe in Jesus as their saviour. Their message was simple: there is one God and He alone deserves your worship. It doesn’t make sense that God sent Prophets for thousands of years with the same essential message, and then all of a sudden he says he is in a Trinity and that you must believe in Jesus to be saved.


    The truth is that Jesus preached the same message that the Prophets in the Old Testament preached. There is a passage in the Bible which really emphasizes his core message. A man came to Jesus and asked “Which is the first commandment of all?”Jesus answered, “The first of all the commandments is Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.’’[Mark 12:28-29]. So the greatest commandment, the most important belief according to Jesus is that God is one. If Jesus was God he would have said ‘I am God, worship me’, but he didn’t. He merely repeated a verse from the Old Testament confirming that God is One.


    Some people claim that Jesus came to die for the sins of the world. But consider the following statement of Jesus: This is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you sent. I have glorified you on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.[John 17:3-4]. Jesus said this before he was caught and taken to be crucified. It is clear from this verse that Jesus did not come to die for the sins of the world, as he finished the work God gave him before he was taken to be crucified.


    Also Jesus said “salvation is of the Jews” [John 4:22]. So according to this we don’t need to believe in the Trinity or that Jesus died for our sins to attain salvation since the Jews don’t have these beliefs.

    5. The Early Christians


    Historically there were many sects in early Christianity who had a range of beliefs regarding Jesus[1]. Some believed Jesus was God, others believed Jesus was not God but partly divine, and yet others believed he was a human being and nothing more. Trinitarian Christianity which is the belief that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one in three persons became the dominant sect of Christianity, once it was formalized as the state religion of the Roman Empire in the 4th Century. Christians who denied Jesus being God were persecuted by the Roman Authorities[2]. From this point onwards the Trinitarian belief became widespread amongst Christians. There were various movements in early Christianity which denied the Trinity, among the more well known of them is Adoptionism and Arianism.


    Dr Jerald Dirks who is an expert on early Christianity had this to say on the subject: Early Christianity was quite conflicted about the issue of the nature of Jesus. The various Adoptionist positions within early Christianity were numerous and at times dominate. One can even speculate that Arian and Nestorian Christianity might well be an extremely sizable source within Christianity today, if it were not for the fact that these two branches of Christianity, which were located primarily in the middle east and in North Africa were so similar to the Islamic teaching regarding the nature of Jesus that they quite naturally were absorbed into Islam at the beginning of the seventh century.”[3]


    Since there were so many sects in early Christianity, each with different beliefs about Jesus and with their own versions of the Bible, which one can we say was following the true teachings of Jesus?


    It doesn’t make sense that God sends countless Prophets like Noah, Abraham and Moses to tell people to believe in one God, and then suddenly sends a radically different message of the Trinity which contradicts his previous Prophets teachings. It is clear that the sect of Christianity who believed Jesus to be a human Prophet and nothing more, were following the true teachings of Jesus. This is because their concept of God is the same as that which was taught by the Prophets in the Old Testament.

    Jesus in Islam


    The Islamic belief about Jesus demystifies for us who the real Jesus was. Jesus in Islam was an extraordinary individual, chosen by God as a Prophet and sent to the Jewish people. He never preached that he himself was God or the actual son of God. He was miraculously born without a father, and he performed many amazing miracles such as healing the blind and the lepers and raising the dead – all by God’s permission. Muslims believe that Jesus will return before the day of Judgement to bring justice and peace to the world. This Islamic belief about Jesus is similar to the belief of some of the early Christians. In the Quran, God addresses the Christians about Jesus in the following way:


    O People of the Book, do not commit excesses in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers and do not speak of a ‘Trinity’– stop [this], that is better for you– God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust. [4:171]


    Islam is not just another religion. It is the same message preached by Moses, Jesus and Abraham. Islam literally means ‘submission to God’ and it teaches us to have a direct relationship with God. It reminds us that since God created us, no one should be worshipped except God alone. It also teaches that God is nothing like a human being or like anything that we can imagine. The concept of God is summarized in the Quran as:


    “Say, He is God, the One. God, the Absolute. He does not give birth, nor was He born, and there is nothing like Him.” (Quran 112:1-4)[4]


    Becoming a Muslim is not turning your back to Jesus. Rather it’s going back to the original teachings of Jesus and obeying him.



     
  16. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    No they didn't preach about Jesus, but they did talk about God having a Spirit and about a future
    coming prophet. This reference islam claims refers to mohamed when it actual refers to Jesus.

    A for Dr Jerald Dirks, why should I believe in a teacher who is dishonest is his presentation of facts and who's bias is to show that islam is correct.

    Your claim is that scientists have demonstrated that the bible is incorrect something you have failed to prove.
     
  17. yasoooo

    yasoooo Member

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  18. yasoooo

    yasoooo Member

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    "Ask the Sheikh" by Musa cerantonio ( Happiness In Islam







     
  19. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    A very poor example of a critical scholar, a first rate historian but a poor theologian.
    Here are articles and debates with him that show that he quibles about so called conradictions but also says they do not invalidate Christianity.

    https://winteryknight.com/2016/10/09/mike-licona-and-bart-ehrman-debate-the-resurrection-of-jesus-3/Licona:
    – there are minimal facts that are agreed to by a broad spectrum of scholars
    – the minimal facts are accepted because they pass standard historical criteria
    – Fact 1: Jesus died by crucifixion
    – Fact 2: Individuals and groups had visions of Jesus after his death
    – Fact 3: Paul, a skeptic and an enemy, had an appearance of Jesus that converted him
    – these facts are agreed to atheist scholars, liberal scholars, etc.
    – virtually 100% of scholars agree with these three facts
    – there is no naturalistic explanation of these three facts
    – therefore, the best explanation of these three facts is that God raised Jesus from the dead

    Ehrman:
    – all historians would accept these three facts, except for maybe the group appearances
    – the death of Jesus is irrelevant to the resurrection
    – the second and third point can be collapsed together
    – so really there is only one fact
    Note Ehrman accepts the three facts quoted above.
    Licona:
    – there are minimal facts that are agreed to by a broad spectrum of scholars
    – the minimal facts are accepted because they pass standard historical criteria
    – Fact 1: Jesus died by crucifixion
    – Fact 2: Individuals and groups had visions of Jesus after his death
    – Fact 3: Paul, a skeptic and an enemy, had an appearance of Jesus that converted him
    – these facts are agreed to atheist scholars, liberal scholars, etc.
    – virtually 100% of scholars agree with these three facts
    – there is no naturalistic explanation of these three facts
    – therefore, the best explanation of these three facts is that God raised Jesus from the dead
    Ehrman:
    – all historians would accept these three facts, except for maybe the group appearances
    – the death of Jesus is irrelevant to the resurrection
    – the second and third point can be collapsed together
    – so really there is only one fact
    Is the text of the Bible we have today different from the originals?
    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/an-interview-with-daniel-b-wallace-on-the-new-testament-manuscripts/
    quote:-
    One of Ehrman’s theses is that orthodox scribes tampered with the text in hundreds of places, resulting in alterations of the essential affirmations of the NT. How do you respond?
    Ehrman is quite right that orthodox scribes altered the text in hundreds of places. In fact, it’s probably in the thousands. Chief among them are changes to the Gospels to harmonize them in wording with each other.
    But to suggest that these alterations change essential affirmations of the NT is going far beyond the evidence. The variants that he produces do not do what he seems to claim. Ever since the 1700s, with Johann Albrecht Bengel who studied the meaningful and viable textual variants, scholars have embraced what is called ‘the orthodoxy of the variants.’ For more than two centuries, most biblical scholars have declared that no essential affirmation has been affected by the variants. Even Ehrman has conceded this point in the three debates I have had with him.

    The curious thing about Bart Ehrman is that the views he articulates in his popular-level work are not the same as those he espouses in his professional/scholarly publications. Indeed, readers may find this curious and very telling quotation, taken from the appendix (p. 252) of Misquoting Jesus, of interest:
    "Bruce Metzger is one of the great scholars of modern times, and I dedicated the book to him because he was both my inspiration for going into textual criticism and the person who trained me in the field. I have nothing but respect and admiration for him. And even though we may disagree on important religious questions – he is a firmly committed Christian and I am not – we are in complete agreement on a number of very important historical and textual questions. If he and I were put in a room and asked to hammer out a consensus statement on what we think the original text of the New Testament probably looked like, there would be very few points of disagreement – maybe one or two dozen places out of many thousands. The position I argue for in ‘Misquoting Jesus’ does not actually stand at odds with Prof. Metzger’s position that the essential Christian beliefs are not affected by textual variants in the manuscript tradition of the New Testament." [Emphasis added]

    William Lane Craig on historical reliability of the gospels
    From
    Reasonable Faith, a challenge from a non-Christian who watched the Craig-Ehrman debate
    alternative link
    https://winteryknight.com/2013/03/25/william-lane-craig-on-historical-reliability-of-the-gospels-2/
    quote:- let’s let Bart Ehrman speak for himself. Does he think that the seeming contradictions he lists undermine the historical credibility of the facts upon which my argument is based? No! He says,
    The resurrection of Jesus lies at the heart of Christian faith. Unfortunately, it also is a tradition about Jesus that historians have difficulty dealing with. As I said, there are a couple of things that we can say for certain about Jesus after his death. We can say with relative certainty, for example, that he was buried. . . .
     
  20. yasoooo

    yasoooo Member

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    Someone told me

    Thanks for sharing info, I know what your point is. I am just throwing my opinion.

    Modern Christianity is thoroughly corrupt/satanic by past standards. It is easy to imagine Christians choosing Islam too save their souls.


    One can’t just compare Jesus with current day Christians. One need to understand the dominant race in Christianity and their background, how they accepted this religion and how it impacted their daily lives.

    Jesus was a Prophet, like Abraham, Moses and Muhammed peace be upon them.

    The Christians of today's days are product of Roman Empire’s conveniently adoption of Jesus’ religion in 3rd century.

    The Europeans had a mixed and scattered culture for thousands of years, with pagan beliefs and other fairy tales dominating the landscape.

    With the advent of Christianity in Europe, the locals adopted the religion very quickly, as it did not confronted with their life styles and culture.

    Under Constantine who imported (officially) the religion in Europe, Romans ensured that the new religion is in full compliance to their culture and rituals.

    For example, during the counsel of Nicaea several aspects of belief systems were standardized before masses (of Europe, non-Semitics, Caucasians) can have a hold onto different version of Bible or common daily life practices of Orthodox Jews. The East Bazentine, new Roman Empire to the central Europe and pockets of other areas in North were mainly pagan at that time. So sculptures, divine figures, certain celebrations, festivities were part of their social life. Moral values were as good as any other region of that time (The middle-east that had Jewish population and influence on others were considered very conservatives, so you can imagine what was going on in Europe), drinking and pork eating was normal and commonly practiced.

    So the importer of the new religion made sure that standards set by Bible for Isrealites must not collide with the relaxed (no restrictions) attitude of Europeans towards religion. They customized the religion to best suite the new tenants that eventually became the torch bearer of Christianity within few centuries. The original followers and preachers fell in the background and eventually forgotten. The religion totally changed and took new course where the founder died for the sins, giving followers clean chit to do whatever they do, keep His sculpture in Church, follow the re-branded customs of pagans with renewed stories linked to Jesus for every celebration and festivals, drink and eat pork as before and create excuses (from Jesus’ life) for everything that they do against the Ten Commandments.

    DVD 72 Is the bible God s word

     
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