Jesus is God or Lord?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Gabrielle A, Jan 12, 2017.

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  1. Gabrielle A

    Gabrielle A Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    I just overheard a conversation in another Christian forum about God. The position from one believer clearly suggested that if you do not believe that Jesus is God, you are not saved? His assumption is that God and Lord are referring to same person.... He used the Amplified to explain his position.

    Romans 10 Amplified
    8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word [the message, the basis] of faith which we preach— 9 because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [recognizing His power, authority, and majesty as God], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart a person believes [in Christ as Savior] resulting in his justification [that is, being made righteous—being freed of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God]; and with the mouth he acknowledges and confesses [his faith openly], resulting in and confirming [his] salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him [whoever adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Him] will not be disappointed [in his expectations].”

    IMHO ~ Although Jesus had the authority to lay down his life and take it up again John 10:17-18. He was being obedient to God his father right to the end for this very reason Hebrews 2:17 NIV and it was his Father who raised him up. If he raised himself up, how could he fully appreciate the responsibility of being a great high priest on our behalf....JMHO :huh: Jesus is God but he is also Lord.

    The issue seemed to be that Jesus was always God yet the bible tells us in Philippians 2


    5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    I would like to clarify this bible passage again. "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. "

    It's that simple and God does not add anything more to it!

    Blessings!
     
  2. brakelite

    brakelite New Member

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    Could I add....Eph. 1:15 ¶ Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
    16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
    17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
    Post ascension the Father is still Jesus' God.
     
  3. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    I guess you missed this bit

    That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory

    God is the God of Jesus, doesnt say Jesus is God no matter how you read it.
     
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  4. Deborah_

    Deborah_ Member

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    Why does he finish the quote at verse 11? Paul's train of thought continues to verse 13, where he quotes Joel 2:32 to support his assertion that "if you declare with your mouth 'Jesus is Lord'... you will be saved." "For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Romans 10:13, Joel 2:32) But Joel is talking about God (Yahweh) - so Paul is implicitly stating that Jesus is God, and the assumption is that calling Jesus 'Lord' is effectively declaring belief in His deity.
     
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  5. Gabrielle A

    Gabrielle A Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that Jesus is not God. Hebrews 1:8-9. The point being made was that Jesus was God pre-cross and if he were God then anyone who confesses that Jesus is lord cannot be saved. Romans 10:9. This was the point being made. If that were the case then his death and resurrection would not have the same impact for mankind. He had to die as a man so that he can be the first fruit of the living, raised by God the Father and the first to ascend into the kingdom. If he were wearing his God hat pre-cross then it would not have the same impact for mankind as it does right now.

    Although Jesus is God, he was wearing his man hat when he went to the cross to fulfill all things spoken about him through the prophets.

    Philippians 2
    5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
     
  6. Gabrielle A

    Gabrielle A Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    The Father is not Jesus...it does not say that in the verse you quoted. That is a oneness doctrine. Please read our statement of faith re: our stand on the Trinity...

    When verse 17 says "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ [he's talking about Father God. Then he reiterates that point by further stating...] the Father of Glory...

    If the Father was Jesus then why does it say in Hebrews 1:7 firstly about the angels " then in verse 8 he says
    ~ but to the Son: Your throne, God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice.9 You have loved righteousnessand hated lawlessness;
    this is why God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of joy rather than Your companions.
     
  7. Gabrielle A

    Gabrielle A Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    I feel that I need to clarify my first post which seems a little confusing now that I have re-read it.. I believe Jesus is lord [Messiah, the anointed one, the coming one] pre-cross and he is also God [equal part of the Trinity] after he fulfilled all things pertaining to his coming, post cross. He could have acted as God pre-cross but that was not his purpose for being born into the world in the form of a human.

    Let's take this a little further. The original discussion was made by a believer from another forum who stated that you cannot be saved if you do not believe that Jesus is God. He then quotes Romans 10:9 from the Amplified to support this belief.

    9 because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [recognizing His power, authority, and majesty as God], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

    No other bible supports this version and please note that the key word is in brackets...

    Now let's take a look at another passage when Jesus asks Peter who he thought he was...Matthew 16
    15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ G5548, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

    Christ ~ From G5548; anointed, that is, the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus: - Christ.
     
  8. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    As far as ones salvation is concerned, all that is required is that you come to Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Believe on Jesus Christ. Trust Christ as your Lord and Savior. And the only reason you come to Christ is to be forgiven your sins and have eternal life. That is the Gospel. All of this is known before you have a desire to come to Christ. Because that is why you come.

    To say that if you don't know every truth about Jesus Christ the Son of God means you are not saved, makes no sense to me. We are always learning, or should be, about Jesus Christ. But we begin with simple faith and knowledge. How many the different utterances that have been said at the point of salvation in the history of believers? God is not saving theologians, He is saving sinners who recognize Christ as their Saviour.

    Concerning the Trinity, and Christs place before and after the cross, I would say He was and is God The Son the whole way. He was and is the God Man.

    (1Timothy 3:16) "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glorly."

    Stranger
     
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  9. brakelite

    brakelite New Member

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    That is the point I was making. However, I might add that Jesus is God...the rock that was cut out of the mountain in Daniel 2 is Jesus...that mountain was/is the Father...the rock may not be in personality the same age as the Father, but it is made of the same material. Like Father like Son. Both God, but the Father is first in all things.
     
  10. brakelite

    brakelite New Member

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    I am not saying that the Father is Jesus. Far from it, in fact quite the opposite. And you are the second person not to understand what I was saying. I said that the Father is Jesus's God....only good written grammar does not permit the inclusion of the last "s: after Jesus', so I left it out, and it was misunderstood. The Father is the God of Jesus, even after the ascension...which means that the Father was not simply a metaphorical position or a role He was playing during Jesus' lifetime.
     
  11. brakelite

    brakelite New Member

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    Yes, it is Peter's confession as to the true identity of our Savior upon which our faith is built...the Messiah, the Son of God. And it is this fact, that Jesus is God's Son, that makes Hm Lord and Christ, and also makes Him God. I would strongly suggest though that there is nothing i any of that that suggests a pure equality with the Father...there is a progression of authority from the Father, to the Son, to the church. And there is coming a time when Jesus will return to the Father the kingdom, and from that time will always be in subjection to Him, as we will be in subjection to Christ. This fact alone is a denial of the idea of trinitarian 'equality'.
     
  12. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    Please help me understand.

    1. Do you believe Jesus to be God before He took on flesh?

    2. Do you believe He became not-God when He took on flesh?

    3. Do you believe he re-became God after the cross or is that the point he first became God?
     
  13. 7angels

    7angels Active Member

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    ok let us look at your points. i will use red it is easier for me then copy and paste ok :)
    i hope this helps

    God bless
     
  14. firstthings1st.

    firstthings1st. Member

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    Hello Angelina, and how are you all? We are being thankful unto GOD, and His Son, for the above post, we would like to share just a few scriptures with you all, proving that of which of our Lord Jesus Christ is not GOD the Father, but is The Son of The Living GOD. If you would just notice in the book of John 4:24 , where Jesus is saying that of his Father, that GOD is a Spirit, and in many more scriptures, but lets just notice also in Acts 17:24 , But here once again in John 14:28http://biblehub.com/john/14-28.htm , As you can clearly see the scriptures are rightly divided. and may I point out, in To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/5-19.htm , And in Matthews 16:16, And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016:13-20 I can use more scriptures but just these proving that to answer this question:
    Jesus is God or Lord? , Jesus Christ is Lord, https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Jesus+Christ+is+Lord , But hopefully, these few scriptures will help?
     
  15. brokentuningfork

    brokentuningfork New Member

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    +1. Great post, we are born knowing nothing. So when we are born again we also know very little, Christian life is a learning process. Growing slowly like a tree.
     
  16. Gabrielle A

    Gabrielle A Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    Thanks everyone. Some great points and posts. Sorry brakelight, I didn't see the extra "s' in your comment. My apologies.

    justaname your questions; I believe

    1. Jesus was God and part of the Trinity pre-flesh
    2. He made himself a little lower than angels [human] and lay aside his deity while in body to fulfill prophecy. He became a son to the obedience of his Father. Philippians 2:8
    3. He took up his deity post-flesh and was given a name that was above every other name....

    Hebrews1
    1 Long ago God spoke to the fathers by the prophets at different times and in different ways. 2 In these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son. God has appointed Him heir of all things and made the universe through Him. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact expression of His nature, sustaining all things by His powerful word. After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4 So He became higher in rank than the angels, just as the name He inherited is superior to theirs.
     
  17. firstthings1st.

    firstthings1st. Member

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    Jesus was and still is: Old and New Testaments, Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+7%3A14%2CIsaiah+9%3A6-7&version=KJV http://biblehub.com/kjv/1_timothy/3-16.htm , http://biblehub.com/john/5-39.htm ,
     
  18. Gabrielle A

    Gabrielle A Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    Isaiah 7:14
    14 Therefore the Lord [H136] himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    [H136] ad-o-noy' An emphatic form of H113; the Lord (used as a proper name of God only): - (my) Lord.

    [H113] ~ aw-done', aw-done' From an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, that is, controller (human or divine): - lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with Adoni-.

    1 Timothy 3:16
    It is true that God was manifest in the flesh but that does not change any of the points being made. As posted in #16 he was God pre-flesh.
     
  19. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    But, 1Tim.3:16 says God was manifest 'in the flesh', not before the flesh.

    Stranger
     
  20. Gabrielle A

    Gabrielle A Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    I think you're misinterpreting what I am saying. Jesus was always God before he became flesh and blood but he was not Father God. Philippians 2:5-6,7. Scripture tells us he appeared as flesh, vindicated in the Spirit [cleared of blame], seen by angels...etc

    16 And most certainly, the mystery of godliness is great:
    He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit,
    seen by angels,preached among the nations,
    believed on in the world, taken up in glory.
     
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