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Jesus Is God: Part 1

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by Hidden In Him, Sep 19, 2021.

  1. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    When we are called to God it is often then necessary to from there to proceed very slowly. People with bad experiences may require a whole lot of time and patience to come to realization of how very good our God is. God has the time and the patience. Do we?

    "Ye [that is, 'we'] are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid." Matt 5:14
     
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  2. BarnyFife

    BarnyFife Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps the question we should be asking ourselves and each other is not so much "can we rightly say 'they' are not Christian" as "should we say 'they' are not Christian?"

    All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
    (1 Corinthians 6:12)
     
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  3. BarnyFife

    BarnyFife Well-Known Member

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    Me, too. :)
    Not sure why you're making the distinction, but okay. :)
     
  4. BarnyFife

    BarnyFife Well-Known Member

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    This is great stuff, HIH. :)
     
  5. BarnyFife

    BarnyFife Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps you should teach a class here on CB. :)
    That's not my understanding of a straw man at all.

    The Straw Man Fallacy

    This fallacy occurs when your opponent over-simplifies or misrepresents your argument (i.e., setting up a "straw man") to make it easier to attack or refute. Instead of fully addressing your actual argument, speakers relying on this fallacy present a superficially similar -- but ultimately not equal -- version of your real stance, helping them create the illusion of easily defeating you.

    Example:
    John: I think we should hire someone to redesign our website.

    Lola: You're saying we should throw our money away on external resources instead of building up our in-house design team? That's going to hurt our company in the long run.

    Not the same scenario you're suggesting at all, is it?
    Just asking. :)
     
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  6. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    Yes. And in addition, it would not make sense that everything we see was created through a figurative existence in the mind of God…
     
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  7. BarnyFife

    BarnyFife Well-Known Member

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    But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: (Matthew 5:34)

    Get it? I used the "throne" thing. That's an interesting coincidence, no? :)
     
  8. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    The Word

    Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    what does said mean?

    Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Let there be light:

    Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    The Word... and God said... is the light... in the Word was life. And the Life was the Light of men.

    And the Word... was made flesh.

    What is the proof of this life in men?
    The blood.

    Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

    What is the flesh? The Word.
    What is in the blood? Life.

    And God SAID.....
    And the Word was with God and the Word was God.

    And GOD became Flesh and dwelt among us. Life was in his blood that he made an atonement for us with.

    God sacrificed his own blood/life as an atonement for our deaths.

    2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    Jhn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

    Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

    the glory of God IS the Lamb.

    The Lamb is the Light. The Light is the Life. The Life was made flesh. And God spoke it and thus it was.
    WORD
    Amen
    Hugs
     
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  9. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    I think you need to calm down a bit here..working too hard. You presume too much of me and I do not accuse. You are wasting your time with empty words like trying to shoot down a flea with a BB gun. It is useless.

    I did however point out that you left out the meat of the BU commentary. Quite obvious don't you think? And you have your reasons...

    And your comment on, "....you have waited until after I publicly stated...." is simply childish and completely untrue. The post I presented was produced as a result of seeing and reading your thread for the first time. I did not wait in ambush. I do not scheme, I'm direct and honest with my intentions here. Need to get over it and stop imagining someone trying to creep in to your castle unawares.

    And I see you had nothing to say on the substance of my post then.

    So let me take the opportunity to elaborate a bit on the idiom in John 17:5b.

    John 17:5
    And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    Christ is now asking his Father as the time is very soon, days a way, when he shall ascend into heaven. He wants his Father to transform him from mortality to immortality, and with power in his Father's presence (as his right arm/hand), in heaven. And that this glorification in heaven was planned for and existed in the foreknowledge of God, his Father, before the world began. This is the first and last glorification for Christ.

    The scripture is not trying to say Christ was actually with his Father before time, and both previously in glory. This would make no sense even from a contextual view. And there is no scripture to support such a thing. And then what is the purpose of Christ having TWO glorifications? It makes no sense.

    He just said in 17:1 that the time was now to glorify him so that he might glorify his Father (in heaven). We can easily presume it has to be for the FIRST time. If those that still linger on to the notion that Christ was previously (first)glorified with immortality with his Father before time then how do you account for even the words of 17:1. This then would have to be a second type of glorification. The first glorification then is never mentioned in scripture. why?
     
  10. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Hmm...

    What was the glory of God before the world began?

    The Word..

    Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

    SO COOL!!!

    HUGS
     
  11. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    I understand your point but I was not giving the definition of Strawman, just identifying its use. If you re-read his post, he was telling me what my argument needs to be. That is, creating the Straw man as it eliminates stronger arguments one might be able to make.

    I've found that in practice, fallacious arguments are made in combination, such as Diversion, Strawman, Majority, Intimidation and Appeal to Ignorance. If not a Strawman, his argument would be best categorized as Appeal to Ignorance. What fallacy of argumentation do you think such a tactic ought to be categorized as?
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
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  12. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm. I watched a video that pointed out Revelations with many thrones. Whoever is sitting on God's throne has the authority of God - even though they are not God. Cool, huh?
     
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  13. BarnyFife

    BarnyFife Well-Known Member

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    Good post. I don't think pointing out fallacious categories avails much, to be honest. It usually comes off as intellectualist brow-beating to most people. It's also a tactic favored highly among avowed skeptics, as I'm sure you realize. Plain talk is preferable to me. Meeting people where they are is a better way to appeal to them, in nearly all cases. Some people are pretty insulting, I suppose without even knowing it. Occasionally folks need a good dressing down but, generally speaking, the old adage that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar is actually true to the pole. YMMV :)
     
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  14. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    This could get really interesting..

    I'm just gonna carry on with the study..ok?
    Because this is really cool stuff.

    Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake (WORD) in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken (WORD) unto us by his Son (WORD made flesh) , whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he (WORD) made the worlds;
    Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory (LIGHT of LIFE) , and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself (WORD made flesh) purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
    Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels (little stars) , as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    So The Lord would put his word into the mouths of the prophets to speak to us.. like Moses.
    But.. Now He has put his Word into a temple he created for himself. A flesh body he created to put his word in and speak to us face to face.
    SO COOL!!

    You guys are making me HUNGRY!!
    LOL Hugs

     
  15. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    God. Supreme Being. Synonyms. What is your problem?

    You obviously do not want to discuss the merit of your proposition. You just want its assertion to be summarily accepted. You could not even admit that Revelations 1:1 indicates the resurrected Jesus received a revelation from God, which is text proof that Jesus is not God.

    Who do you think you are talking to? You are not the boss of me.

    I don't know what criteria for tedious you have. However, there is no requirement to respond to posts made in this forum.
     
  16. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Interesting...

    Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
    Jhn 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
    Jhn 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

    Who sent him?

    Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

    Who is speaking?

    Either God is Jesus in the NT, or Jesus is God in the OT.
    There is only One God. And the Word that he sent and became flesh, and we spoke with him face to face.

    We look at the flesh body, it is human nature/carnal.
    That body perished.
    The Word returned to God who sent it.
    We call the Word a he because he came in the form of a man.
    And so we judge with the eyes that the Word and the body that contained it, must be somehow different or other than the one who sent it.

    The one who sent the Word, is the Word in the flesh.

    In Revelations 1:1. God is testifying of the Word he sent. He is prophesying what his Word has done, what is doing, and is yet to do.

    And the Word that was made flesh returns unto the one that sent the Word.
    Who's mouth did the Word of God come from?

    Hard to look past the flesh isn't it??
    We see Jesus we see a man that's flesh and blood.
    He was created this way so he could speak to us face to face.
    Not like when He was on Mt. Sinai and the people feared his voice and told Moses to be his mouth for him.

    Jesus was created as a vessel to hold His Word and to speak to the people.
    He was fully human flesh and fully God's Spirit.
    The flesh was crucified and died.
    The Word returned to him that sent it.

    Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

    Hugs
     
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  17. BarnyFife

    BarnyFife Well-Known Member

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    I believe this is a profitable discussion going on in this thread. I also believe it would be even better if we kept this passage in mind:

    Acts 7:33 Parallel: Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.

    It is impossible for finite minds fully to comprehend the character or the works of the Infinite One. To the keenest intellect, the most highly educated mind, that holy Being must ever remain clothed in mystery. “Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?” Job 11:7-8....


    The Word of God, like the character of its divine Author, presents mysteries that can never be fully comprehended by finite beings. The entrance of sin into the world, the incarnation of Christ, regeneration, the resurrection, and many other subjects presented in the Bible, are mysteries too deep for the human mind to explain, or even fully to comprehend. But we have no reason to doubt God's Word because we cannot understand the mysteries of His providence. In the natural world we are constantly surrounded with mysteries that we cannot fathom. The very humblest forms of life present a problem that the wisest of philosophers is powerless to explain. Everywhere are wonders beyond our ken. Should we then be surprised to find that in the spiritual world also there are mysteries that we cannot fathom? ...


    The difficulties of Scripture have been urged by skeptics as an argument against the Bible; but so far from this, they constitute a strong evidence of its divine inspiration. If it contained no account of God but that which we could easily comprehend; if His greatness and majesty could be grasped by finite minds, then the Bible would not bear the unmistakable credentials of divine authority. The very grandeur and mystery of the themes presented should inspire faith in it as the Word of God.


    The Bible unfolds truth with a simplicity and a perfect adaptation to the needs and longings of the human heart, that has astonished and charmed the most highly cultivated minds, while it enables the humblest and uncultured to discern the way of salvation. And yet these simply stated truths lay hold upon subjects so elevated, so far-reaching, so infinitely beyond the power of human comprehension, that we can accept them only because God has declared them. Thus the plan of redemption is laid open to us, so that every soul may see the steps he is to take in repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, in order to be saved in God's appointed way; yet beneath these truths, so easily understood, lie mysteries that are the hiding of His glory—mysteries that overpower the mind in its research, yet inspire the sincere seeker for truth with reverence and faith. The more he searches the Bible, the deeper is his conviction that it is the Word of the living God, and human reason bows before the majesty of divine revelation.


    To acknowledge that we cannot fully comprehend the great truths of the Bible is only to admit that the finite mind is inadequate to grasp the infinite; that man, with his limited, human knowledge, cannot understand the purposes of Omniscience....


    God intends that even in this life the truths of His Word shall be ever unfolding to His people. There is only one way in which this knowledge can be obtained. We can attain to an understanding of God's Word only through the illumination of that Spirit by which the Word was given.... And the Saviour's promise to His followers was, “When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.... For He shall receive of Mine, and shall show it unto you.” John 16:13-14.


    God desires man to exercise his reasoning powers; and the study of the Bible will strengthen and elevate the mind as no other study can.... A sense of the power and wisdom of God, and of our inability to comprehend His greatness, should inspire us with humility, and we should open His Word, as we would enter His presence, with holy awe....

    :)
     
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  18. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    APAK, the fact that you are still pestering me indicates my words hold true.
    APAK, THIS is childish. I don't what know what happened to you, but something changed. But again my words are holding true. You are still not respecting my simple request that we set it aside and deal with it when I have time, and are now openly implying I have nothing to reply.

    So I guess I'll have to deal with this sad business since you apparently think I'm mentally beneath you, and thanks so much for forcing the issue.
    You honestly think this argument is beyond refutation, and closes the discussion? That it is beyond question that έχω is used and an idiom, and without so much as a shred of further support? You know as well as I do how weak a position that is. You are posting as if it's some sort of revelation it's occasionally used as an idiom. What you needed to do to even remotely have an argument here was establish that έχω is used primarily as an idiom, and we both know what a fallacious argument that would be. Or do actually wish to argue that? Otherwise you are simply throwing up a Hail Mary, having offered zero additional support for your argument. And yet you present it as if it should be "clear as a bell" to me. You're kidding, right?

    And what is with this pompous, presumptuously erudite insinuation that anyone who doesn't agree with the Unitarian position simply isn't "thinking clearly"? You deliberately highlighted it in the quote you provided, and then added in your own two cents by asking me if it was "clear as a bell" for me now. How exactly did I arrive at my "programmed metal state" APAK, since you know so much about my conversion, my upbringing, my church involvement, where and from whom I received my spiritual education, and how I arrive at my conclusions. Then again, maybe none of that is important anyway, because after all, I'm having to work SO hard just to reply to you. And you and your Unitarian friend you think I was incapable of refuting apparently both believe it's because I have trouble thinking clearly.

    Would you like to "clarify" things for me? Maybe once again my metal deficiencies are getting the better of me? I swear, APAK, you couldn't be the least bit respectful of my time or of me as a sentient human being, and over THIS argument... and instead of letting me move on, I have to defend myself against the open accusation of supposedly having "nothing to reply with." :rolleyes:

    Dude, it's sickening. And yet, let me guess, I am now "overacting" as well, in addition to having such a clouded mind that it's a miracle I managed to muster a response.

    I have to go, so let me ask you again. Is it ok if we set this aside for now, or are you unable to let it go, and will continue insinuating or outright stating that I'm incapable of responding to your "arguments"?

    Yours,
    Hidden
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
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  19. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah is speaking. Isaiah is speaking for God as all prophets do.

    Not sure how you come to this alternative. Jesus fulfills the promise God made in Deuteronomy 18:15-18 and Isaiah as the suffering servant. This is made explicitly clear in the NT in the Book of Acts. Do you deny Revelations 1:1 explains that the resurrected Jesus got a revelation from God?


    He [God] has fixed a day of accountability, when the whole world will be justly evaluated by a new, higher standard: not by a statue, but by a living man. God selected this man and made Him credible to all by raising Him from the dead.
    Acts 17:31 (Voice) [Emphasis added)
     
  20. Backlit

    Backlit Well-Known Member

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    Not distinction, but affirmation. Paul is saying that the holy Spirit inspired David to speak words of praise which related directly to the Son, affirming His deity.
     
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