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Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Oddawll2, Nov 18, 2018.

  1. Oddawll2

    Oddawll2 Member

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    I'm a new Christian. I'm not sure what that means.

    My daughters have decided that my grandchildren will become Christians, and we all attend a Disciples of Christ church.

    So I have decided to read the Bible.

    I have a question about the events in Matthew 3:13-17, Mark 1:9-11, Luke 3:21-22, and John 1:29-34. They could all describe the same events, but in John, John the Baptist does not baptize Jesus, so I wonder if John's narrative describes a separate event, which may have happened before or after the events in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
     
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  2. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Oddawll2,

    Hello and Welcome. It is good to hear that you are a new Christian. What it means from Scripture is that you have been born again and the Holy Spirit and Christ live within you. That will empower you to do the will of God, and *walk in the Spirit*. I trust you know that you have been born again.

    As to your question, you should note that the first three Gospels generally agree, and follow the same pattern (more or less), but John s Gospel is unique. Therefore the first three Gospels are called *Synoptic Gospels*, so you can place them side by side and then harmonize them.

    In John s Gospel the baptism of Christ is briefly touched upon thus: The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (v 19)

    Why was Jesus *coming unto him* (Q) The other Gospels give you the answer. Just as Christ took the place of sinners at the Cross, He did the same at His baptism, since He did not need to be baptized.
     
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  3. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to the site Odd :)
    Very good question, it does seem to describe different events and, when you look at vs's 29
    The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I..."
    35 The next day again John was standing with two of his disciples, 36 and he looked at Jesus as he walked by and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God!”
    Does not even speak of Jesus "water baptism". Though, it does speak allot to the Holy Spirit given to Jesus. The second would overshadow the first? Hm, dunno.
     
  4. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    Hi; good to see you.

    Here's a great verse which summarizes the Gospel wonderfully:

    John 3.16.

    Earlier in the chapter the Lord Jesus explains what being born again means.
     
  5. Oddawll2

    Oddawll2 Member

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    Thank you all for your input.

    I don't really understand much of this, but, at least as a first approximation, I think that in Matthew 3:13-17, Mark 1:9-11, Luke 3:21-22 describe the baptism. John 1:29-34 describes a later event, maybe the next day.

    Then in John 1:35-1:51, Jesus collected the first disciples.

    Then according to Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Satan tested Jesus, something like how the goddesses tested Paris, but Jesus passed the test.

    Then, according to Luke, Jesus narrowly escaped being thrown from a cliff in Nazareth.

    According to John 2, Jesus turned water into wine, and then he went to Jerusalem to crack heads in the temple.

    According to John 3, on the way back to Galilee, Jesus goes through Samaria, and he meets John the Baptist along the way. John uses the opportunity to again testify about Jesus. John testifying about Jesus must have been a everyday thing.

    I don't know what happens next, but I'll guess (from Mark 1) that maybe John goes to prison, and Jesus announces the Good News. He becomes a celebrity, or as Harry Truman said about Martin Luther King, Jr, "a trouble maker."

    :)
     
  6. Oddawll2

    Oddawll2 Member

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    Have I been born again. Who knows? I'm involved in this because I want to support my children's decisions on this.

    So far, I don't see much difference between the Gospels. The one difference that I have found involves Jesus and his disciples. In the synoptic (remind me to google that) gospels, (Mark 1:16-1:20) Jesus begins collecting disciples after John's imprisonment. In John 1:35-1:51, he collects disciples before the imprisonment, unless maybe John's incarceration happened more than once.
     
  7. Oddawll2

    Oddawll2 Member

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    I sat through a discussion of the Trinity. If I understand correctly, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit represent the same thing. Maybe I should not use the word, thing. Things have mass and volume. The persons of the Trinity, like geometic figures or rules of grammar, have neither. According to John, God is a word. I suppose John wants to emphasize that God has neither mass or volume.

    Anyway, I wonder why he would need to receive the Holy Spirit if he is the Holy Spirit. Maybe you should not answer that. I expect it would have a complicated answer.
     
  8. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    God in Three Persons is seen in many New Testament passages; the end of Matthew 28; John chapter 1; ch.s 13 thru 17; John's First Epistle; Romans 8, etc.
     
  9. Oddawll2

    Oddawll2 Member

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    Thank you for the suggestion. I see that it explains, more or less, about born again. As time goes on, maybe I can grok it.

    One line stands out.

    “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” John 3:4

    Back when my kids still wore diapers, I had a neighbor, a Buddhist monk or maybe priest, I not sure of the correct word. We had a discussion about how to apply science to decision making.

    Science depends on repeatability. He argued that events never repeat, making science impossible, and he quoted a Buddhist doctrine that sounded very much like John 3:4. Of course that happened over forty years ago. Who knows if I miss-remember.

    :)
     
  10. Oddawll2

    Oddawll2 Member

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    Yes, I know. The Trinity only restates the Bible. If fact it seems like such a reasonable idea, one wonders why people argue about it.

    However, if Jesus is the Holy Spirit, he should have no need to receive the Holy Spirit. Or is he the Holy Spirit because he received the Holy Spirit. Is it a question even worth asking?
     
  11. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Active Member

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    Can I humbly offer you a piece of advice. Do not try to answer all of the questions at once. It is like unlearning what you though was a good basis for your existence but now you have been challenged to learn about a better way. Like learning to walk, it is necessary for you to fall over in your understanding. There is nothing wrong with falling over, unless you turn away from God to solve your questions that arise.

    I can attempt to tell you all of the answers to your questions even if you have not yet thought of all of the questions you may want to ask over time. By supplying you with all of the answers in a brain dump, you will become overloaded and you will scream out in frustration. Learn about God at God's pace which is extremely very suitable just for you. I have been learning about God for over 65 years now and I find that there are still many things that I have to unlearn from by past as I was taught many wrong understanding that people have developed from their reading of the Scriptures.

    The Best Advice I can give you is to continually press into God at all times. He will love you for doing just that and He will simply consider you as His special child of God who has a desire to excel in the things of God. Not necessarily straight away, but as time progresses, you will notice that your desire to come closer to God has already happened and that God is forging you into the PERSON that He DESIRES YOU TO BECOME IN HIM.

    Shalom
     
  12. Oddawll2

    Oddawll2 Member

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    As of right now, I'd say I've become a bit crockers, but maybe I'll suss it out. Sounds like good advice.
     
  13. Deborah_

    Deborah_ Active Member

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    Hi there, and welcome to God's Kingdom!

    The Bible is a big collection of books, and it takes time to learn your way around it. Don't be surprised if a lot of things don't make sense to start with - and it's absolutely fine to ask questions.

    The first three gospels were written at around the same time, use a lot of the same material, and lay it out in a very similar way. But John's gospel was written 20-30 years later and is completely independent. Because the other three were already in circulation, he doesn't simply repeat the same stuff all over again. He tells us different things, from a more reflective point of view, and he puts more emphasis on Jesus' deity. Also, he doesn't necessarily put the events in chronological order! So he doesn't feel the need to describe Jesus' baptism, but John the Baptist does refer to it in John 1:32-34.

    This is a misunderstanding of the Trinity (don't worry, most of us find it a difficult concept to get our heads round). Basically, the trinity is like this...
    The Father is God. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God.
    BUT Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

    John identifies Jesus as God's Word - in other words, God communicates with us through Jesus (see also Hebrews 1:1,2). John tells us that the Word is God - but this is a sentence, not a mathematical equation, so you can't reverse it and say that God is the Word.
     
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  14. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was 100% man and 100% God. He left the glory in Heaven with His Father to come down to earth and die for the likes of sinful man. Jesus did not
    "need" to even be baptized in water but, told John to anyhow.
    Matt. 14 "But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?"
    15 "And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him."

    My "simple" belief is that Jesus was baptized as an act of obedience. "Anyway, I wonder why he would need to receive the Holy Spirit if he is the Holy Spirit.

    Just because The Holy Spirit alighted upon Jesus shoulder in the form of a dove, does not necessarily mean He was Being "baptized in the Holy Spirit". IMHO, it is more of God The Father, Yeshua and the Holy spirit bearing witness of their triune-ness.
    "Maybe you should not answer that. I expect it would have a complicated answer."
    I am no scribe, and no intellectual I will readily admit. But then I never saw Jesus exhibiting a whole lot of fondness for those who depend on their own "intellectualism" for Truth. :rolleyes:
     
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  15. Oddawll2

    Oddawll2 Member

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    Yes, I sort of misremembered that.
     
  16. Oddawll2

    Oddawll2 Member

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    In Mark 1:40-1:45, Matthew 8:1-8:4, and Luke 5:12-5:15, Jesus heals a man with leprosy. They sound like they may describe the same event.

    In Mark's version, the leper's request annoys Jesus. [Oye ve, so many lepers. So little time.] Or not, a footnote in the text says that instead of being annoyed, Jesus felt compassion. Jesus tells the patient not to tell anyone of his cure, but the patient tells everyone.

    Then lightning struck the patient, possibly as a reward for disobedience. Actually, none of the gospels say that, but it would make a better story.

    Matthew and Luke don't speak of Jesus' attitude or the patient's disobedience, so maybe they describe other incidents.
     
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  17. Oddawll2

    Oddawll2 Member

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    In Mark 2:1-12, Matthew 9:1-8, and Luke 5:17-26 may describe the same event.

    Jesus heals a paralyzed man. Pharisees, who witness the event, accuse him a blasphemy.

    One might wonder the Pharisees major interest in the matter grew out of a concern about blasphemy, or maybe their real concern came from the fact that during the previous Passover holiday, Jesus had disrupted the money changing in the temple. (John 2:13-25)
     
  18. Deborah_

    Deborah_ Active Member

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    The gospel writers often include different details when talking about the same event. In particular, Matthew tends to be much briefer than Mark and Luke, so he must leave out a lot of detail.

    Mark says that Jesus was "indignant" - but why do you assume that He was angry with the leper himself? I think he was angry at the disease - a particularly horrible condition that made the man a social outcast and caused him great misery.
     
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  19. Oddawll2

    Oddawll2 Member

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    Actually, I didn't mean to imply that Jesus expressed indignation at the leper. It must have been more indignation about lepers in general. He must have known that eventually somebody would find an antibiotic, which could cure all lepers.
     
  20. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Quite the opposite. Jesus had compassion on the leper. So whatever perverted version you may be reading, you should let it go. Especially if it needs a footnote to clarify what is already in the text.
    Since the Gospels are not fiction but historical fact, the Gospel writers were not free to embellish their narratives. They wrote only what the Holy Spirit gave them to write.
     
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