John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

[Rich R]

John 17:1-3,

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

Jesus was talking to his Father and called Him the only true God. This is in complete agreement with Corinthians.

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
​

Again, the Father is called the one God.

John calls Jesus the son more than 50 times and never calls him the Father.

John 1:1,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
​

If we say Jesus is God then that means he is either the Father (which is totally counter to the Creeds) or he is not the true God (John 17:3) nor the one God (1 Cor 8:6).

Many solve the problem by finding out exactly what the "word" (logos) is in John 1:1. Hint: it's not Jesus.

Please confine the discussion to these verses in John. All the other so-called proof verses don't change what John clearly said. All verses have to fit.

 

[tigger 2]

Trinitarian Greek expert, W. E. Vine, (although, for obvious reasons, he chooses not to accept it as the proper interpretation) admits that the literal translation of John 1:1c is: “a god was the Word”. - p. 490, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Thomas Nelson, Inc., 1983 printing.

Professor C. H. Dodd, director of the New English Bible project, also admits this is a proper literal translation:

“A possible translation [for John 1:1c] ... would be, ‘The Word was a god.’ As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted.” - Technical Papers for the Bible Translator, vol. 28, Jan. 1977.

The reason Prof. Dodd rejected “a god” as the actual meaning intended by John is simply because it upset his trinitarian interpretation of John’s Gospel!

Rev. J. W. Wenham wrote in his The Elements of New Testament Greek: “Therefore as far as grammar alone is concerned, such a sentence could be printed: θεὸς ἐστιν ὁ λόγος, which would mean either, ‘The Word is a god’, or, ‘The Word is the god’.” - p. 35, Cambridge University Press, 1965.

(Of course if you carefully, properly examine this study, you will find that the grammar really shows that ‘The Word was in John 1:1c a god’ is what John intended.)

Trinitarian NT scholar Prof. Murray J. Harris also admits that grammatically John 1:1c may be properly translated, ‘the Word was a god,’ but his trinitarian bias makes him claim that “John’s monotheism” will not allow such an interpretation. - p. 60, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992. However, his acknowledgment of the use of “god” for men at John 10:34-36 and the use of “god/gods” for angels, judges, and other men in the Hebrew OT Scriptures contradicts his above excuse for not accepting the literal translation. - p. 202, Jesus as God.

And Dr. J. D. BeDuhn in his Truth in Translation states about John 1:1c:

“‘And the Word was a god.’ The preponderance of evidence from Greek grammar… supports this translation.” - p. 132, University Press of America, Inc., 2003.

Trinitarian Dr. Robert Young admits that a more literal translation of John 1:1c is “and a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word” - p. 54, (‘New Covenant’ section), Young’s Concise Critical Bible Commentary, Baker Book House, 1977 printing.

And popular Bible scholar, author, and Bible translator, trinitarian Dr. William Barclay wrote: “You could translate [John 1:1c], so far as the Greek goes: ‘the Word was a God’; but it seems obvious that this is so much against the whole of the rest of the New Testament that it is wrong.” - p. 205, Ever yours, edited by C. L. Rawlins, Labarum Publ., 1985.

You see, in ancient times many of God’s servants had no qualms about using the word “god” or “gods” for godly men, kings, judges, and even angels.

New Testament Greek expert Joseph H. Thayer defines theos:

““θεός is used of whatever can in any respect be likened to God or resembles him in any way: Hebraistically, i.q. God’s representative or vicegerent, of magistrates and judges.” - p. 288, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.


To see the proof of John’s intended meaning of “a god” at John 1:1c, see my personal studies:

Examining the Trinity or Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity

 

[GEN2REV]

John 17:1-3,

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

Jesus was talking to his Father and called Him the only true God. This is in complete agreement with Corinthians.

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
​

Again, the Father is called the one God.

John calls Jesus the son more than 50 times and never calls him the Father.

John 1:1,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
​

If we say Jesus is God then that means he is either the Father (which is totally counter to the Creeds) or he is not the true God (John 17:3) nor the one God (1 Cor 8:6).

Many solve the problem by finding out exactly what the "word" (logos) is in John 1:1. Hint: it's not Jesus.

Please confine the discussion to these verses in John. All the other so-called proof verses don't change what John clearly said. All verses have to fit.

This is all totally contradicted, cleanly and plainly, by Jesus Himself in John 14:21-23.

After saying, in verse 21, He (Jesus ALONE) will manifest HIMSELF to him that obeys and loves Him, Jesus is asked, in verse 22 by Judas, to elaborate, to clarify, what He is saying.

To which Jesus replies in verse 23 that He AND THE FATHER will come unto that person and make THEIR home with that person.

They are one and the same.

Case closed.

Thread closed.

 

[ScottA]

John 17:1-3,

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

Jesus was talking to his Father and called Him the only true God. This is in complete agreement with Corinthians.

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
​

Again, the Father is called the one God.

John calls Jesus the son more than 50 times and never calls him the Father.

John 1:1,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
​

If we say Jesus is God then that means he is either the Father (which is totally counter to the Creeds) or he is not the true God (John 17:3) nor the one God (1 Cor 8:6).

Many solve the problem by finding out exactly what the "word" (logos) is in John 1:1. Hint: it's not Jesus.

Please confine the discussion to these verses in John. All the other so-called proof verses don't change what John clearly said. All verses have to fit.

People struggle with their individuality. In fact, so much so that this issue is a prideful argument pretty much unto death. Yes, I said "pride."

And God breaking things down into days and weeks and minutes and seconds; and different experiences, and parables, as any good parent does in baby talk...only makes it worse for some. So instead of learning by recognizing that all things have been unpacked for elementary understanding, we end up with different doctrines, and definitions--even different persons.

Wow--we ought to feel stupid!

The object however, is to understand all the little pieces, knowing that they are all information from and regarding the One.

Get repacking baby!

 

[farouk]

John 17:1-3,

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

Jesus was talking to his Father and called Him the only true God. This is in complete agreement with Corinthians.

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
​

Again, the Father is called the one God.

John calls Jesus the son more than 50 times and never calls him the Father.

John 1:1,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
​

If we say Jesus is God then that means he is either the Father (which is totally counter to the Creeds) or he is not the true God (John 17:3) nor the one God (1 Cor 8:6).

Many solve the problem by finding out exactly what the "word" (logos) is in John 1:1. Hint: it's not Jesus.

Please confine the discussion to these verses in John. All the other so-called proof verses don't change what John clearly said. All verses have to fit.

The writings of John alone confirm that God is in Three Persons.

 

[GEN2REV]

People struggle with their individuality. In fact, so much so that this issue is a prideful argument pretty much unto death. Yes, I said "pride."

Once again, Scott, I gotta tell ya. Your wisdom and knowledge of the Bible is humbling.

Those of us who stand for exactly what Scripture says are very foolish and I just can't help thinking ...

Wow--we ought to feel stupid!

The object however, is to understand all the little pieces, knowing that they are all information from and regarding the One.

Here's a little smidgeon for ya.
Hebrews 1:8

Heaven forbid it could actually mean what it says, though. That would be ignorant to believe.

 

[GEN2REV]

The writings of John alone confirm that God is in Three Persons.

Especially here where Jesus clearly states that He and the Father are the same person and that THEY ARE the Holy Spirit. Completely forgetting to mention a third person, that being the Spirit, at all.

John 14:21-23

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

John 17:1-3,

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

Jesus was talking to his Father and called Him the only true God. This is in complete agreement with Corinthians.

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
​

Again, the Father is called the one God.

John calls Jesus the son more than 50 times and never calls him the Father.

John 1:1,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
​

If we say Jesus is God then that means he is either the Father (which is totally counter to the Creeds) or he is not the true God (John 17:3) nor the one God (1 Cor 8:6).

Many solve the problem by finding out exactly what the "word" (logos) is in John 1:1. Hint: it's not Jesus.

Please confine the discussion to these verses in John. All the other so-called proof verses don't change what John clearly said. All verses have to fit.

In the beginning, Elohim (a plural form) meaning God is more than one person.
"Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Gen. 1: 25
"Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil."
Gen. 3:22
In both verses the word "us" is referring to God. These are pronouns. [A pronoun is a word that is used instead of a noun or noun phrase. Pronouns refer to either a noun that has already been mentioned or to a noun that does not need to be named specifically.]
God is not talking to His angels, for angels do not create anything.
God is love. Love cannot be alone. Love needs to express itself, have a relationship. Can you say you are a loving person if you lived on an island all by yourself. When a person says they are in love, that always means with another person. You could love yourself, but if that was all you did, that is selfish, self serving and not the kind of love that we see God as being.
So God must be plural or do you think He was alone before the creation of anything? "Let Us make man in Our image!" The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit have this loving relationship, they are ONE.
3 persons, 1 God.
No greater an expression of love is that you would sacrifice your life for another person. That is what God did. He became flesh, a human, dwelt among us and died for us. Jesus is the expression of God's love. Jesus did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped by men ... at least some men.

 

[ScottA]

Once again, Scott, I gotta tell ya. Your wisdom and knowledge of the Bible is humbling.

Those of us who stand for exactly what Scripture says are very foolish and I just can't help thinking ...Here's a little smidgeon for ya.
Hebrews 1:8

Heaven forbid it could actually mean what it says, though. That would be ignorant to believe.

And so begins the ages old argument once again.

Nonetheless, what I have said is the truth. Jesus even started the repacking, saying, "I and the Father are One." ...Which is only right, seeing how it was the Father that started the unpacking, saying, "This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."

Unpacking, repacking.

 

[GEN2REV]

And so begins the ages old argument once again.

Nonetheless, what I have said is the truth. Jesus even started the repacking, saying, "I and the Father are One." ...Which is only right, seeing how it was the Father that started the unpacking, saying, "This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."

Unpacking, repacking.

Unpack and repack this!!

The Father ... called the Son ... "God".
Hebrews 1:8

 

[ScottA]

Don't get me wrong. I am not for or against the Trinity doctrine.

But those things seemingly for and against must be reconciled. And for what reason would anyone consider one group of scriptures more correct than others, if not for lack of understanding?

 

[ScottA]

Unpack and repack this!!

The Father ... called the Son ... "God".
Hebrews 1:8

Yes. And again, it is He who has done both the unpacking and the repacking. I just said it outloud.

 

[GEN2REV]

Don't get me wrong. I am not for or against the Trinity doctrine.

But those things seemingly for and against must be reconciled. And for what reason would anyone consider one group of scriptures more correct than others, but for lack of understanding?

That's a silly dismissal of Biblical reasoning concerning one set of verses in comparison to another.

ALL of Scripture is easily discerned based on the rest of Scripture as a whole. Those who refuse to accept the weight of Scripture on a topic do just that - REFUSE, quite stubbornly, to accept the Bible's position upon that matter.

There is AMPLE evidence all throughout the Bible of the Truth of this concept. It's not just a "Welp, we can't figure out the answer on this one. There's two differing groups of verses. Guess it's just a mystery."

Nope. The Bible doesn't leave anything, this important for a Christian to understand, as a mystery.

It literally comes down to a decision. Is somebody going to embrace the Truth of Scripture or are they going to believe what they WANT to believe DESPITE Scripture's plain position upon the matter?

The Bible is CRYSTAL clear that God is a single, solitary individual.

Here's a whole chapter from the OT that repeatedly refers to God Almighty as an individual. If there was any possibility whatsoever that God was a trinity, or a binaty or whatever else, it would have been mentioned, or strongly implied, somewhere in this chapter.

1 Chronicles 16:8-36

This chapter refers to God with pronouns over and over and over, indicating beyond any shadow of a doubt that He is an individual. There is not the slightest possibility that 2 or 3 would be referred to with a pronoun like is used herein.

It's just a question of whether somebody is going to believe the Bible or something more convenient.

That is the rock-bottom line.

 

[tigger 2]

Unpack and repack this!!

The Father ... called the Son ... "God".
Hebrews 1:8

.............................................

Hebrews 1:8

The 'original copies' of Heb. 1:8 (P46 is the earliest - first to middle part of second century) says Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεὸς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος. (θεὸς is in its abbreviated form). Yes, literally the oldest NT Greek manuscripts read (like all others): “Toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age.”

There was no punctuation, so it is honestly translated as either: "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever" OR “God is thy throne for ever and ever” - Dr. James Moffatt's translation (also AT and others).

Even the great NT grammarian A.T. Robertson wrote in his Robertson's Word Pictures of the NT discussing Heb. 1:8:

“It is not certain whether ho theos here is the vocative [‘Thy throne, O God’] .… or ho theos is nominative….(‘God is thy throne’)”

Heb. 1:8 translated from Ps. 45:6

Psalm 45 is celebrating an Israelite king’s marriage, and the psalmist applies the words of Ps. 45:6, 7 literally to an ancient Israelite king. In fact, the trinitarian New American Standard Bible (NASB), Reference Edition, explains in a footnote for Ps. 45:1, “Probably refers to Solomon as a type of Christ.”

So, according to this trinitarian Bible, the words of Ps. 45:6, although figuratively referring to Jesus, were literally applied to an ancient Israelite king (probably King Solomon, it says).

So if Ps. 45:6 is properly translated, “your throne, O God ...” then that ancient Israelite King (Solomon?) was also literally called “O God” (or “O god”?). In fact, the highly trinitarian New American Bible, St. Joseph Edition, 1970, explains in a footnote for this verse:

“The Hebrew king was called ... ‘God,’ not in the polytheistic sense common among the ancient pagans, but as meaning ‘godlike’ or ‘taking the place of God’.”

The trinitarian Easy-to-read-Version also says in a footnote for this passage:

“God .... here the writer might be using the word ‘God’ as a title for the king.” (Cf. NIV Study Bible f.n. for Pss. 45:6 and 82:1, 6.)

If we can find a few trinitarian-translated Bibles which translate Ps. 45:6 in a non-trinitarian way, we really shouldn't accept it (also Heb. 1:8 - see post above) as actual trinity evidence.

The RSV renders it as “Your Divine throne” and a footnote provides this alternate

reading: “Or ‘your throne is a throne of God.’”

The NEB says: “Your throne is like God’s throne.”

The Holy Scriptures (JPS version) says: “Thy throne given of God.”

The Bible in Living English (Byington) says: “God is your throne.”

The Good News Bible (GNB), a very trinitarian paraphrase Bible, renders it: “The kingdom that God has given you will last forever and ever.”

The REB has: “God has enthroned you for all eternity.”

And the NJB gives us: “your throne is from God.”

We also see the following statement by respected trinitarian scholars in a footnote for this passage:

“45:6 O God. Possibly the king’s throne is called God’s throne because he is God’s appointed regent. But it is also possible that the king himself is addressed as ‘god.’” - Ps. 45:6 f.n. in the NIV Study Bible.

In addition to the above renderings by many respected translators (most of whom are trinitarian), we have the statement by perhaps the greatest scholar of Biblical Hebrew of all time, H. F. W. Gesenius. In his famous and highly respected Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Gesenius renders Ps. 45:6, “thy throne shall be a divine throne.”

Why is Heb. 1:8 so often presented as proof of Jesus being God? Have so many trinitarians really not seen the numerous alternative translations and interpretations of this scripture? At the very least these alternatives should be admitted by them (but seldom are).

It shows a desperation to find evidence for their conclusion.

 

[ScottA]

That's a silly dismissal of Biblical reasoning concerning one set of verses to another.

Yeah...kinda like saying you're the Beginning and the End.

...Surely there must be two different doctrines for each!

 

[Enoch111]

Thread closed.

That would be nice. Imagine the absurdity of saying "Jesus is the Father..."! That is beyond clueless.

 

[GEN2REV]

It shows a desperation to find evidence for their conclusion.

There's no desperation whatsoever.

God Almighty created a book that defines itself.

You can bring in every "respected translator" that has ever lived and take each verse apart, one at a time, and none of them, nor the collective, will be capable of changing the evidence that Scripture as a whole lays out repeatedly all throughout the Bible.

It's just not possible.

If the Bible could've EVER been destroyed, buried, burned - down to its very last remaining copy - it would have been many times over throughout history. MANY very powerful men, and peoples, have attempted to do just that in so many creative ways and NEVER have any of them been successful.

It will never be silenced, its Truth will NEVER be transformed into lies and its power, the power of the Lord God Almighty will never, EVER be weakened or eroded in any way.

It is the Word of God Almighty and all your efforts to alter and diminish it are futile.

 

[GEN2REV]

That would be nice. Imagine the absurdity of saying "Jesus is the Father..."! That is beyond clueless.

I know, right?

Oh, wait ... The Father Himself said that.
Hebrews 1:8

Crazy.

ETA: The Father ALSO called Jesus LORD in Hebrews 1:10.
Would you like to take a guess how many times the Father was referred to as LORD in the OT?

 

[GEN2REV]

Yeah...kinda like saying you're the Beginning and the End.

...Surely there must be two different doctrines for each!

Read the rest of the post.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

John 17:1-3,

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

Jesus was talking to his Father and called Him the only true God. This is in complete agreement with Corinthians.

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
​

Again, the Father is called the one God.

John calls Jesus the son more than 50 times and never calls him the Father.

John 1:1,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
​

If we say Jesus is God then that means he is either the Father (which is totally counter to the Creeds) or he is not the true God (John 17:3) nor the one God (1 Cor 8:6).

Many solve the problem by finding out exactly what the "word" (logos) is in John 1:1. Hint: it's not Jesus.

Please confine the discussion to these verses in John. All the other so-called proof verses don't change what John clearly said. All verses have to fit.

lol. Confine yourself only to the verses I give, (but all verses have to fit…)
Don’t bring ANY of the rest of Gods words into the discussion because they don’t fit my indoctrination.
Are you serious man?