1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

John 1:1 "let scripture interpret scripture!"

Discussion in 'Community Welcome Center' started by sonofYah, Apr 1, 2019.

  1. sonofYah

    sonofYah New Member

    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    4
    Faith:
    Other Faith
    Country:
    Australia
    In John 1:1- It states what the word was NOT who the word was...
    If we combine John’s words we get TRUTH not ERROR!

    John 1:1 and THE WORD
    In the beginning
    was the word
    WHAT was from the beginning, WHAT we have heard... the word of life... 1 John 1:1
    This is the message we have heard from Him... 1 John 1:5
    An old command which you had from the beginning... the word which you have heard... 1 John 2:7
    ... let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide In the son and in the Father... 1 John 2:24

    John 1:1... In the beginning was the word... and the word was God...
    The word = what we heard
    In the beginning was what we heard... and the word was God...
    In the beginning was the word... and what we heard was God...

    This is TRUTH not ERROR, because... “I will put My words in his mouth” - Deuteronomy 18:15-18: Acts 3:22-26
    YHVH gets His works done through His word Isaiah 55:11
    In John’s Gospel, Yah shua (Yah’s salvation) repeatedly tells us he is speaking his Fathers words... John 3:34-35; 5:24; 7:15-18; 8:26-28,38,43-47; 12:49-50; 14:10,24.
    Also compare 14:10 and 8:16,29; 16:32.

    In the beginning = Yah shua’s ministry. -They heard from YHVH his Father, through the man Yah shua (through his Fathers indwelling spirit) Who came in his God and Fathers name. And indeed he was not alone. His Father abiding in him did the works. The word which Yah shua proclaimed was not himself but his God, YHVH his Father. Yah shua made his Father known (John 5:20; 17:3). No one has ever seen (perceived) His Father but Yah shua his son made Him known (1:18) :
    Colossians 1:15 Gk text lit reads- … "who is (the) image of the God the unseen,
    firstborn of all creation..."
    Yah shua is the image of the God NOT God Himself... Yah shua is God's revealed word
    becoming flesh... John 1:14 - "... and the word became flesh (Yah shua's birth) AND tabernacles in us: and we see (perceive) his glory (his Fathers glory)- the glory as of the only birthed of the Father; full of grace and TRUTH:

    John 17:3 Gk text lit reads -But this is the eternal life: that they might know you the alone true God, and whom you sent (commissioned) Yah Shua Messiah.

    "let scripture interpret scripture!"​











     
    APAK likes this.
  2. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,318
    Likes Received:
    5,618
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    And this is the word...the unpronounceable...יהוה
     
    faithfulness and "ByGrace" like this.
  3. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,818
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    first thanks for the post, second, you said,
    is not Yeshua the Father? consider this verse, Revelation 3:12 "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name". ok, who name did he write?.

    consider this, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God".
    #1. "being" is existing, if already existing how can he be an image of God?. #2. if already existing how can he be "equal" with God when the the scriptures clearly state that no one is his "equal", (see Isaiah 40:25, Isaiah 46:5, and Isaiah 40:18).

    the WORD is GOD, John 1:1c the same person.

    PICJAG.
     
    ScottA and "ByGrace" like this.
  4. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,995
    Likes Received:
    1,987
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I debated this issue many times in the past.

    What it boils down to is the Scripture says what you want to say when you want to say it. Shopping cart theology.

    Even here you've made a lot of grammatical and word meaning errors.

    Not to mention you are in the wrong forum. Welcome does not mean debate.
     
  5. JellyJam

    JellyJam Active Member

    Messages:
    681
    Likes Received:
    217
    Faith:
    Agnostic
    Country:
    Australia
    Argh! It's like I've been hit by a freight train carrying a load of Bible's.

    I'm seeing star's.
     
    marks likes this.
  6. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,541
    Likes Received:
    1,174
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I overlooked your thread....you are bang on my friend....

    You and I represent a very small minority that allows scripture to interpret itself. This scripture of John 1:1-2 is the foundation and the heart of John's writings. Unfortunately you cannot topple most folks off their ivory towers of wisdom. They have built a fortress around it. Let them ask the Spirit for guidance if they dare.

    In the beginning was the voice of God indeed. And as you pointed out in Deuteronomy 18:18; Act 3:20-22: YHWH commanded his words be spoken as in Moses and all other prophets, and then indeed in Jesus (Yah Shua Messiah) his Son, as written in John 1:14.


    Bless you,

    APAK
     
  7. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Active Member

    Messages:
    604
    Likes Received:
    241
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Where in John 1:1 is יהוה written.
     
  8. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,818
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    in his "WORD" who is GOD almighty.

    PICJAG
     
  9. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Active Member

    Messages:
    604
    Likes Received:
    241
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    So many people will twist scripture to try to prove there belief, Philippians 2:6 is one of those scriptures. People will twist it and take it out of context to prove their beliefs but if someone else does the same thing it's suddenly wrong. I will never agree with taking things out of context or twist scripture to prove my beliefs.
     
  10. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,818
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    First thanks for the reply, second, why is it when people have no knowledge of what someone else speaks, says, "So many people will twist scripture to try to prove there belief". well don't talk, prove them in their ERROR by the scriptures instead of complaining about the scriptures....

    if U believe that Philippians 2:6 has been taken out of context put your assessment of it on the table to be examine.

    will be looking for your assessment of Phil 6:2.

    PICJAG.
     
  11. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,382
    Likes Received:
    3,603
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    You started out by promoting ERROR, so how will you arrive at the truth?

    In John 1:1 the Word is a PERSON (who) not an object (what) -- the Creator.

    Indeed that Person is God -- God the Word -- who is also God the Son, who is also Jesus. So Jesus is God, but you have come along to deny this truth -- to attack the doctrine of Christ -- and make up your own false doctrine.
     
  12. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,541
    Likes Received:
    1,174
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    You are pushing and wedging your Diversity Oneness doctrine again, into any post you can find it seems. You are 'sounding' desperate? Been as it for at least 5-6 years I suspect...still trying to belittle and knock folks around...

    And by again twisting the context and meaning of Philippians 2:6 again. This time to clearly infer it means that Jesus preexisted as God Almighty. I've read a previous presentation of yours on Phil 2:6, and it is different from this one. Amusing as it may be, although troubling for those wanting to discuss, as in a TWO-WAY discussion, and understand scripture without very little bias or no bias in it, if that were possible.

    So your latest meaning or assessment of Phil 2:6 that you have placed on the table, using scripture as you often tell others to do, is it your final version? Or do you want to finagle it a bit more, or just 'run off' to another area of scripture and repeat the process again? I guess a moving target is hard to hit, aye?

    No response is expected or encouraged. I've read many many of your posts from years back....more of the same .....stuff

    Bless you, as the Father of the Son of YHWH only can, using HIS holy and the only true spirit (Spirit, or Spirit of Truth),

    APAK
     
  13. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,541
    Likes Received:
    1,174
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Enoch: Can you tell me how you learned and arrived at your conclusion of truth that the word of God (YHWH) is a person and even Jesus. According to the Greek transliterated term 'logos,' it always without exception means a non-person,an it, let alone the person of Jesus. Have you considered this your reaching your conclusion, ever?

    Just very curious because you seem so confident in your post that Jesus is the logos of/from YHWH.

    Bless you,

    APAK
     
  14. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,382
    Likes Received:
    3,603
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Well APAK that is really quite simple. All you have to do is go to verse 3 below verse 1 and everything becomes very clear:

    All things were made by him [ A PERSON = THE CREATOR]; and without him [A PERSON = THE CREATOR] was not any thing made that was made.

    There is no one (other than evolutionists or atheists) who will deny that the Creator of the universe is God. So this Person -- who is called "the Word" -- is identified as God in verse 1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Now when we turn to Revelation 19 we find this confirmed as below:
    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    And this is Jesus as we see here in Revelation 19 also: And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    And therefore no one can be mistaken as to the identity of the Word, who is further down identified in John as the only begotten Son of God, who is Jesus of Nazareth.

    But it anyone would have any lingering doubts, God has provided further confirmation of this truth in Hebrews 1.

    JESUS IS BOTH GOD AND THE CREATOR
    8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
    9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God,
    even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
    10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
    11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
    12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.


     
    stunnedbygrace likes this.
  15. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,318
    Likes Received:
    5,618
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    In the OT. It is translated as Lord or Jehovah. The Jews say "Hashem"...or, "the Name".

    But we could also say "the Word".

    Proverbs 25:2
    2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, (Word)
    But the glory of kings is to search out a matter. (Word)
     
  16. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,541
    Likes Received:
    1,174
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I will just discuss the first couple of sentences of your post. John 1:3. I believe you have not answered my query at all. I see that you have just propagated and used this same unqualified Greek word 'logos' found in John 1:1-2, and now used it in the form of a male gender pronoun which it cannot be. It is a neuter gender pronoun; an 'it' and never a 'he.' Do you know that pre-1611, most, if not all Bible translations spoke of 'All things were created by it...'as in verse 3, and never 'All things were created by him...' I wonder why that was, and why it was deliberately changed, especially since the major Catholic and Protestant Bibles were written, the Douay-Rheims and KJV respectively? This is very important to know in my estimation.

    So now I'm left still not understanding why you made 'logos' a person in John 1:1-2 and then made it a 'he,' in John 1:3. Your foundation and source of thinking says you believe that the Greek word logos => male person => he; right? If you do some research you shall understand where I stand and why my stand is different from the main-stream thought.


    Thanks.

    Bless you,

    APAK
     
    amadeus likes this.
  17. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,818
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    GINOLJC to all.
    First, I'm not pushing anything but the truth. and second, "Diversified Oneness", is not MY Doctrine, but God's, so take that up with him. and as for as speaking this doctrine in any post, ...... the TRUTH STAND whever it goese, I have no control of where the truth go..... :D and if it hits a post so be it, for the truth is the scriptures of God, and God is everywhere. also thanks for the advertisement, it do fit everywhere .... it cannot be denied ;) another wink there ;)
    third, desperate"... :) the only one who is, is those who have it on their minds ... :cool:
    fourth, "trying to belittle and knock folks around", you say.

    you said, "And by again twisting the context and meaning of Philippians 2:6 again. This time to clearly infer it means that Jesus preexisted as God Almighty". why when the truth sting, it's somebody, "twisting the context" that's a sad excuse for lack of understanding the scriptures. but that's true, JESUS is the Almighty God, the one and only one before the world was. and if something I say that was diffrent, PLEASE POST IT, put it on the table.
    fifth, we been game for a discussion, but no taker, so we can count on you for a discussion?. we hope so and we can start with Phil 2:6.

    please keep reading for your edification. and we have put our assessment of Phil 2:6 on the table many of times, and we are not changing anything not one jot or one tittle shall in no wise will be removed...... :p

    oh but we do encourage you, or any trinitarian to discuss the scriptures on the Godhead, we welcome all.

    PICJAG.
     
  18. tigger 2

    tigger 2 Active Member

    Messages:
    146
    Likes Received:
    53
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    APAK wrote:
    ...........................
    John 1:1 N-NMS
    GRK: ἦν ὁ λόγος - https://biblehub.com/greek/logos_3056.htm

    N-NMS means Noun-Nominative Masculine Singular. We should know this anyway just from the use of the Masculine Singular Article (ho, ὁ ) which is used with Logos. So the pronoun for it in John 1:3 must also be in the masculine gender. autou may be either masc. or neuter, but since the antecedent is masc., the pronoun must be also.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
    101G likes this.
  19. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,318
    Likes Received:
    5,618
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    It is evident from scriptures that Jesus was always in God and became a separate person while maintaining all the attributes of God. Like taking a glass of water from a lake. Same essence. Although the lake of water is greater than the glass of water. As such Jesus could be joined with His creation. He became for us a life giving Spirit.

    The mystery of Jesus Christ is that before He became a man...He shared the same name as the Father... Jehovah...or Yahweh. The scriptures are plain.

    It's like calling the lake or the cup....water. So then the divine essence of Jesus Christ is exactly as the Father's. If you have seen the Son...you have seen the Father...in essence. The essence of God is called by a word...a Hebrew word... YHVH.

    And the word became flesh...
     
    stunnedbygrace and faithfulness like this.
  20. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,541
    Likes Received:
    1,174
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    A comparison of apples and oranges, I’m afraid. My position still stands, and this is why.

    I agree with you abbreviated response if you maintain the same language for its integrity. Unfortunately, in this case, we are translating the Greek 'logos' into the English, ‘word’ or message. It forces some thought and special care. The English language does not have gender attached to their adjectives and nouns as the Greek and French etc.

    Let me explain:

    Although οὗτος is declined in the masculine gender, some might assume that "the word" (ὁ λόγος) is a person, but οὗτος is simply agreeing with the grammatical gender of its antecedent, ὁ λόγος, a grammatically masculine gender noun. As such, unless it is absolutely certain that ὁ λόγος is referring to an animate object with gender (e.g., a male person), then the pronouns that refer to it would be translated by the neuter gender English pronoun "it."

    It is correct in English to call 'word' ‘it’ every time, without except, for John 1:3 at least.

    Now for a Trinitarian at least, he/she FIRST makes the false connection that Jesus is God and start their thought process and logic from that point and feel comfortable calling logos a ‘he.’ In their dreams only I’m afraid.


    Bless you,


    APAK
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
Loading...