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Featured JOHN 20:6 DISPROVING THE SHROUD OF TURIN

Discussion in 'Unorthodox Doctrine Forum' started by Doug, Sep 23, 2019.

  1. Doug

    Doug Well-Known Member

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    John 20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,

    20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

    These verses disprove the notion that the shroud of Turin is authentic.

    The shroud is one piece of cloth depicting the body of Jesus from the head down. Verse 7 states the cloth napkin about his head was wrapped together separately so making it impossible for the face of Jesus to have been imprinted on the same piece of cloth as his body.
     
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  2. Berserk

    Berserk Well-Known Member

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    On the contrary, the use of both the face cloth (Latin: sudarium) and shroud to wrap the corpse was standard Jewish practice. Indeed, the sudarium of Oviedo (which was brought to Oviedo, Spain from the ancient Jerusalem church) once wrapped the same crucified corpse as the Shroud! The blood spatter pattern is the same on both and, more importantly, both contain stains from the same relatively rare blood type AB!
     
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  3. Doug

    Doug Well-Known Member

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    Is the face cloth found along with the shroud of Turin?
    The shroud of Turin is one piece of cloth as far as I know
     
  4. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Shrouded in mystery. What was wrapped around the head was not necessarily what was wrapped around the face and the body. In any event those who love relics love the Shroud of Turin. But there is no mention of it in Scripture. Chances are that the angels who went to the tomb removed everything. And the tomb of Christ did not become a shrine.
     
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  5. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Are not all things possible with God?
     
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  6. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    To All,

    People ignorantly debate the "merits" of the Shroud and the Sudarium (face cloth). They use the text -- which has it's own limitation; they use their logic -- which has it's own limitations; but they seldom use Science. And if they do use "Science" they selectively choose arguments which dispute the authenticity, rather than objectively considering each side.

    For example, according to my conversation with one of the actual 1978 STURP lead chemists, the original carbon dating was flawed because samples and equipment were being mysteriously tampered with during their investigations, and the carbon dating sample was not microscopicly photographed prior to the destructive evaluation. Thus the carbon dating is not reliable.

    However objective evidence such as holographic imaging strongly supports the validity of this historic relic.

    Of course my favorite Aunt's saying holds true for many "doubters": My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts!

    Bobby Jo
     
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  7. Berserk

    Berserk Well-Known Member

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    "Joseph bought a linen shroud (Greek: "sindon"), and taking him down, wrapped him in the linen shroud and laid him in a tomb that had been cut out of the rock. And he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb (Mark 15:46; also Matthew 27:59; Luke 23:53--ESV).
    ""He [Peter] saw the cloth that had been on his face (Greek: "soudarium")...rolled up in a place by itself (John 20:7)."

    You can google many YouTube videos on the Shroud's authenticity under the heading "New Evidence and the Shroud of Turin." Here is a summary of the case made by these videos:

    (1) The Carbon-14 testing of the Shroud was fatally flawed because it was done on a corner patch which had been rewoven with cotton after a fire damaged the Shroud. 2 non-Christian scientists on the investigative team (one Jewish and the other a non-believer, a chemist) now consider the it to be the authentic burial cloth of Jesus.
    (2) Various new dating techniques have redated the Shroud to a range that includes the time of Jesus crucifixion.
    (3) Jewish experts on ancient weaving styles claim that the herringbone weave of the Shroud reflects the style used in and only in the Palestine of Jesus' day.
    (4) The wounds on the head neatly match the pattern expected from torture with an ancient Roman flagellium.
    (5) Forensic pathologists have established that the man enveloped by the Shroud had been crucified.
    (6) Microscopic pollen on the Shroud derives from the Jerusalem region and few other places.
    (7) The rare blood type AB is also found on the Soudarium [head wrapping] at Oviedo and in the same blood splatter pattern on the facial area! The Soudarium was brought to Oviedo from Jerusalem in the 600s AD. The same crucified man was once wrapped by both the Shroud and the Soudarium!
    (8) Scientists can't explain how the image on the Shroud was created, apart from the fact that it was created by some kind of heat energy, but not by fire. Many believe the image was created by the energy of Jesus' bodily resurrection!

    Many who reject the Gospel evidence for Jesus' resurrection, partly because of all the apparent contradictions, find the evidence from the Shroud convincing. So it has great apologetic value for leading skeptics to faith.
     
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  8. Doug

    Doug Well-Known Member

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    Please clarify one thing for me.....if the shroud is one piece of cloth how could his face be imprinted on it if his head was covered by a separate napkin?
     
  9. Doug

    Doug Well-Known Member

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    Please explain to me how if the shroud is one piece of cloth the face could be imprinted on it if his head was covered separately.
     
  10. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    I recall reading that the small piece of the shroud they initially used was on one of the top corners. Some scientist saw the difference in the color of the rest of the shroud and came to the conclusion that, all the years of holding the shroud by the corners, over and over, made the carbon dating of no use as so many people had their hands on it???
     
  11. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    There is lore, myth, and fact. The Lead Chemist on the STURP team I personally spoke to only identified the circumstance where samples were switched during off hours; and the lack of a micro photograph of the sample in question prior to being destructively carbon dated.


    But to me, it's more interesting that a "negative" wasn't invented until the 1800's (photographically); and the hologram wasn't invented until the mid-1900's. So how is it possible that the Shroud has BOTH of these characteristics?

    People debate the nuances which can never be answered, but ignore the Scientific Facts which CAN be answered. -- I prefer Science over speculation.

    Bobby Jo
     
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  12. Berserk

    Berserk Well-Known Member

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    No Nancy, it was later proven that the pieces used for the Carbon-14 dating were rewoven in the 1500's with cotton. That realization forced a reassessment in which even a Jewish skeptic and a secular chemist on the STIRP team became convinced that the Shroud is Jesus' authentic burial cloth! The forensic evidence led investigating pathologists to conclude that the blood on the Shroud and the Sudarium (both with the same blood type AB and the same blood spatter pattern) once covered the same crucified corpse. Sadly, Evangelical indifference to the Shroud's authenticity unwittingly demonstrates that they don't revere the redeeming blood of Jesus shed on the cross as much as they think they do!
     
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  13. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    ... that "faith-based-ignorance" is better than "faith-based-FACTS".

    It seems that the church leadership is too ill-informed/lazy/stupid to present anything more than their worthless "TRUST ME". Or how about: "This Is MY Church, what I say comes from GOD!" Or how about: "It's my job to hear from GOD, and your job to LISTEN TO ME."

    And if you don't "OBEY", you are disinvited from "fellowship", as I've seen -- not in a cult, but in a mainstream "christian" church. Correct Doctrine has NOTHING to do with "pastors" (small "p"), EVERYTHING depends upon OBEYING the "pastor" (small "p").

    Right or Wrong, the "pastor" (small "p") is RIGHT.
    Bobby Jo
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  14. Berserk

    Berserk Well-Known Member

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    Let me take this thread in a relevant, though tangential path, by drawing attention to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher as the true site of both Jesus' tomb and Golgotha, which were venerated as holy sites in the Jerusalem church of the first century. That church was built on the site of the ancient Temple of Venus, which emperor Hadrian ordered to be built over the site of Jesus' tomb. The leaders of the Jerusalem church in the early 2nd century knew where Jesus' tomb and Golgotha lay buried and pointed the location out to Constantine's mother Helena during her visit to Palestine. She ordered this pagan temple to be torn down so that Jesus' tomb could be recovered. In his book on Constantine, Eusebius reports being an eyewitness to the demolition and the awesome rediscovery of Jesus' tomb underneath it. Eusebius claims to have seen proof that this truly was Jesus' tomb, likely in the form of an inscription, which was lost when the outer part of the tomb was destroyed. The remnants of the tomb are just 40 feet from the 13 foot stony pile that remains the only part of Golgotha that survived the leveling done to facilitate the construction of the Venus temple. Jesus was buried in a garden tomb and there is proof that the site of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher was a garden grown by a rock quarry in Jesus' day. This church is just yards away from the site of the Garden Gate and Hebrews 13:12 tells us that Jesus was crucified just outside the gate. It seems certain that the early Jerusalem church that venerated Jesus' Tomb would also preserve and venerate Jesus' burial Shroud and Sudarium.

    My Evangelical tour of Israel included the Garden Tomb, but excluded the Church of the Holy Sepulcher on the grounds that it was a "Catholic site!" The fact that the tour excluded both the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity disappointed me because the former is likely the true site of Jesus' tomb and the latter is likely the true site of Jesus' birth. The Garden Tomb is far too old to have served as Jesus' new tomb and its site, far from being venerated, was used as a site to water horses during the Crusades. btw, Justin Martyr reports that the Bethlehem manger cave was born was already venerated as the site of Jesus' birth during his boyhood in Samaria in the early 2nd century. The Church of the Nativity was built over that cave.
     
  15. GerhardEbersoehn

    GerhardEbersoehn Well-Known Member

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    It's fascination you should know. What in all this makes it the body of Jesus? BUT WHAT IN ALL THIS MAKES IT NOT, JESUS' BODY?

    First, <<the blood>> - Jesus did not bleed; Last, <<stains>> on an original white <<corpse shroud>> - it was Joseph's purpose made linen cloth of an array of colours.
     
  16. Berserk

    Berserk Well-Known Member

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    Duh, you are sadly confusing the Old Testament patriarch Joseph's coat of many colors with the Shroud purchased by the Sanhredrin member, Joseph of Arimathea.
    Wow! You actually deny that crucifixion and the floggings suffered by Jesus prior to it would cause Him to bleed? You are a modern example of one of the first great heresies condemned by the early church--Docetism.
    "Then He took a cup, and after giving thanks He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is the blood of the covenant which is shed for many for the remission of sins (Matthew 26:27-28)."
     
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  17. GerhardEbersoehn

    GerhardEbersoehn Well-Known Member

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    So your corpse shroud got its blood stains on from the blood in the cup. Joseph must have wrapped the same sheet around the <same body> of Jesus, before the Eucharist and Jesus must have spilt its blood onto himself from head to toe before the trial and flogging even started. That's modern Dopetism you don't seem to be aware of.
     
  18. GerhardEbersoehn

    GerhardEbersoehn Well-Known Member

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    “Of how much sorer punishment suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy who hath trodden underfoot THE SON OF GOD counting the blood of the COVENANT WHEREWITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED an unholy thing and hath done despite unto the SPIRIT OF GRACE?”

    That is what it means to say Jesus like an unholy thing the sacrifice of blood, ‘bled’, ‘blood’.

    “He who has trodden underfoot the blood wherewith the Son of God was sanctified .. THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT .. is he who “has done despite unto the SPIRIT of grace”—because the Son of God not like the sons of men shod the blood of animals in literal reality, but in spiritual reality “poured out his SOUL”, “unto the SPIRIT of Grace”.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
  19. Berserk

    Berserk Well-Known Member

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  20. GerhardEbersoehn

    GerhardEbersoehn Well-Known Member

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    Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhn
    Just now ·
    “The Blood of Christ”—“the Blood of the Covenant”—is the “Blood wherewith the Son of God was sanctified unto the Spirit of Grace”.

    No 'Commentary' worthy the description 'Christian' will not agree.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
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