John 3:16 in relation to the grace gospel

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

H. Richard

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2015
2,345
852
113
Southeast USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NKJV

Many say this is was under the grace gospel too. But was it?

It is only common sense to understand that when Jesus walked in Israel He was their Messiah and King. Any Jew that believed He was their Messiah and King were saved. A Gentile could only be saved by becoming a proselyte by converting to Judaism.

But since the nation of Israel refused to believe in Him God turned to the Gentiles. Since the Law of Moses was only given to the Jews Gentiles were not under that law.

Today, we are not saved by believing Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and King. We are saved simply by believing in Jesus' work on the cross where He paid for the sins of the whole world. We can not be saved just by believing Jesus was the Jews Messiah and King.
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is important that we believe that Jesus is the Messiah...

1Jo 5:1, Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Of course, Christ's function as Messiah was to go to the Cross for us; we must consider faithfully that Isaiah 53 is Messianic scripture.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
We can not be saved just by believing Jesus was the Jews Messiah and King.
It seems like you are always promoting heresies (including Hyper-Dispensationalism).

Paul said to the Gentile Philippian jailer: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house".

LORD = KING OF KINGS AND GOD

CHRIST (CHRISTOS) = MESSIAH (MASHIACH)

And this is exactly what Peter preached to the Jews: Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
 

H. Richard

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2015
2,345
852
113
Southeast USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In this age of God's grace NO ONE CAN GO TO HEAVEN unless they believe that Jesus paid for their sins on the cross. Just believing that Jesus was the Jew's Messiah will not save anyone in this age of God's grace.

You MUST believe He paid for all your sins on the cross. If you don't then you do not believe in Him, you just believe about Him.
 

H. Richard

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2015
2,345
852
113
Southeast USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is important that we believe that Jesus is the Messiah...

1Jo 5:1, Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Why do we have to believe Jesus is our Messiah and King. He was/will be the king of the Jews in Israel.

I think people can not see that those saved under grace are made children of God. They are not subjects, nor will they ever be subjects of a king.

Rom 4:14
14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,
NKJV

Rom 8:16-17
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

Gal 3:26-28
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

Water baptism will not put a person IN CHRIST. Only the baptism by the Spirit will do that.
 
Last edited:

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Just believing that Jesus was the Jew's Messiah will not save anyone in this age of God's grace.
No one teaches that "just believing that Jesus was the Jew's Messiah" will save anyone. So now you have created a straw man, since your basic premise was false. Why not back off and say "Sorry folks, I don't have a clue, I need to learn fundamental Gospel truth".
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NKJV

Many say this is was under the grace gospel too. But was it?

It is only common sense to understand that when Jesus walked in Israel He was their Messiah and King. Any Jew that believed He was their Messiah and King were saved. A Gentile could only be saved by becoming a proselyte by converting to Judaism.

But since the nation of Israel refused to believe in Him God turned to the Gentiles. Since the Law of Moses was only given to the Jews Gentiles were not under that law.

Today, we are not saved by believing Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and King. We are saved simply by believing in Jesus' work on the cross where He paid for the sins of the whole world. We can not be saved just by believing Jesus was the Jews Messiah and King.
For somebody that believes in grace, you sure do have a lot of rules and regulations.

Could you post some verses that show us that Jesus believed He was going to die to save us from our sins?

I just can't think of any right now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah) is born of God (saved).
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think people can not see that those saved under grace are made children of God. They are not subjects, nor will they ever be subjects of a king.

Jesus is the King of kings and the Lord of lords; and we are all His subjects.

Water baptism will not put a person IN CHRIST. Only the baptism by the Spirit will do that.

I believe that Galatians 3:27 tells me (if not you) differently.

By excluding water baptism from the definition of baptism in scripture and limiting it to Holy Spirit baptism, you are playing a hermeneutical game that is not honest with the way that one ought to interpret the holy scriptures.

Scripture teaches that there is one baptism (Ephesians 4:5); and this would indicate that the baptism in water and Holy Spirit baptism are unified in one. So you cannot have Holy Spirit baptism apart from water baptism.

Acts 2:38-39 speaks of a conditional promise.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Davy

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus is the King of kings and the Lord of lords; and we are all His subjects.



I believe that Galatians 3:27 tells me (if not you) differently.

By excluding water baptism from the definition of baptism in scripture and limiting it to Holy Spirit baptism, you are playing a hermeneutical game that is not honest with the way that one ought to interpret the holy scriptures.

Scripture teaches that there is one baptism (Ephesians 4:5); and this would indicate that the baptism in water and Holy Spirit baptism are unified in one. So you cannot have Holy Spirit baptism apart from water baptism.

Acts 2:38-39 speaks of a conditional promise.

Richard is a follower of the Hyper-Dispensational Grace movement. Beside adhering to a pre-trib rapture, it teaches that only Paul's Epistles are for Christ's Church, so they pretty much discard the rest of God's Word.
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
2 Timothy 3:16 would be the refutation of that. The epistles of James, Peter, Jude, and John, as well as the gospels, Acts, Hebrews, and Revelation, are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. Not to mention the Old Testament; which contains great and precious promises that can be grabbed hold of by the saints. 2 Peter 1:3-4, 2 Corinthians 1:20, Romans 4:20-22, Hebrews 11:33. Every book in the New Testament also contains such promises.

Therefore, @H. Richard is robbing himself of a treasury of scriptural knowledge that might be able to sustain him in a time of need.
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Richard is a follower of the Hyper-Dispensational Grace movement. Beside adhering to a pre-trib rapture, it teaches that only Paul's Epistles are for Christ's Church, so they pretty much discard the rest of God's Word.
Is the above true?
@H. Richard
 

H. Richard

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2015
2,345
852
113
Southeast USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Is the above true?
@H. Richard

I will answer this one but not the others because all they wish to talk about is me.

The whole Bible is for our study and understanding. But not all of it is about the gospel given to Paul. Since Jesus, Himself, sent Paul to the Gentiles with a HIDDEN, HIDDEN, HIDDEN, HIDDEN, gospel of God's grace it amazes me that Gentile do not want to listen to what he wrote.

Paul wrote that his gospel was HIDDEN, HIDDEN, HIDDEN in God so why do the religious tell us the only thing hidden was that the Gentile were going to be saved too. This fact was never hidden. It was prophesied in the OT that the Gentiles would be saved, but their salvation was to be through the Jews. It was never prophesied that the Gentiles would be saved outside of the Jews.

Religious writers and believers do not want it known that Jesus has already paid for the sins of all those that will believe it. But that is to simple for the religious. That is because they want people to believe in their religion that teaches that a person must earn his/her salvation through religion and the acts of men (water, rituals etc.). Many people have been killed because they will not submit to the intimidation of the religious. Some on this forum wish to kill my message of God's grace as taught by Paul.

If some wish to favor the religious who will not put their faith in the work of Jesus on the cross and only wish to shut me up just as the religious shut Stephen up by killing him. Okay that is fine with me. What they say about me is just what they said about Paul.

Do I believe in "DISPENSATIONAL" understanding? YES I DO. It is the only way to understand what is written to us about the history of the Jews. That history is written for our understanding. The gospel Paul taught was not the same as the """GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM = THE GOSPEL OF THE PROMISED KINGDOM for the Jews. The Gentiles were never promised a kingdom. According to Paul, the children of God are promised to be God's children in heaven, not the earth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: charity

H. Richard

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2015
2,345
852
113
Southeast USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
For somebody that believes in grace, you sure do have a lot of rules and regulations.

Could you post some verses that show us that Jesus believed He was going to die to save us from our sins?

I just can't think of any right now.

Amazing !!!!! What rules and regulations have I said we are under. I have only taught that Jesus paid for our sins on the cross and if people do not believe He did then they are not saved. The only thing that saves a person is their faith, belief, trust and confidence in what Jesus did for them on the cross. All glory for salvation belongs to Jesus.

Luke 18:31-34
Jesus a Third Time Predicts His Death and Resurrection (Matt 20:17-19; Mark 10:32-34) 31 Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished.
32 For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon.
33 They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again."
34 But they understood none of these things; this saying was """"hidden""" from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken.
NKJV

HIDDEN. There is that word again that the religious just can't see.

1 Cor 2:7-8
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the """""hidden"""" wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Why would they not have crucified Him? If they (the religious) had known that His shed blood would pay for all the sins of mankind they would have killed him another way.
NKJV
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
I will answer this one but not the others because all they wish to talk about is me.

The whole Bible is for our study and understanding. But not all of it is about the gospel given to Paul. Since Jesus, Himself, sent Paul to the Gentiles with a HIDDEN, HIDDEN, HIDDEN, HIDDEN, gospel of God's grace it amazes me that Gentile do not want to listen to what he wrote.
What you say above is true.
Paul made up practically all the theology of Christianity.
The idea of Jesus dying for our sins was never really understood before...Paul had to make some sense of Jesus' death.

Paul wrote that his gospel was HIDDEN, HIDDEN, HIDDEN in God so why do the religious tell us the only thing hidden was that the Gentile were going to be saved too. This fact was never hidden. It was prophesied in the OT that the Gentiles would be saved, but their salvation was to be through the Jews. It was never prophesied that the Gentiles would be saved outside of the Jews.
This is also true...
The Abrahamic Covenant.
The Davidic Covenant.

Religious writers and believers do not want it known that Jesus has already paid for the sins of all those that will believe it. But that is to simple for the religious. That is because they want people to believe in their religion that teaches that a person must earn his/her salvation through religion and the acts of men (water, rituals etc.). Many people have been killed because they will not submit to the intimidation of the religious. Some on this forum wish to kill my message of God's grace as taught by Paul.
The message of grace was taught by Paul and confirmed by the other writers.
He did speak to the apostles after the time he spent in the desert (I forget where right now) and there was a conflict between him and Peter and Paul won the argument. One did NOT have to become Jewish first to then become Christian.
Paul looked upon Christianity as a new religion...but he also did not let go of the O.T. laws. This is obvious in all his letters when he speaks about how a Christian is to behave. IOW, Grace does not nullify the commandments of God..
It did, and does nullify the Civil law and the ceremonial law.

Also, you said rituals are of man...you mentioned water rituals.
Some are of men
but some are of God.

Those Jesus spoke of are of God.
Baptism is a water ritual that is of God.


If some wish to favor the religious who will not put their faith in the work of Jesus on the cross and only wish to shut me up just as the religious shut Stephen up by killing him. Okay that is fine with me. What they say about me is just what they said about Paul.
The religious who put their commands before God's are wrong.
Every church has a statement of faith. Some go beyond the bible...but I do feel that man NEEDS a church/religion. It's the glue that binds us all together.
We need a place to worship with other Christians..and though we won't find the perfect church, I think we could get pretty close if we believe the bible teachings.

Do I believe in "DISPENSATIONAL" understanding? YES I DO. It is the only way to understand what is written to us about the history of the Jews. That history is written for our understanding. The gospel Paul taught was not the same as the """GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM = THE GOSPEL OF THE PROMISED KINGDOM for the Jews. The Gentiles were never promised a kingdom. According to Paul, the children of God are promised to be God's children in heaven, not the earth.
After 4 years on these forums, I still don't really understand dispensatinalism.
I believe the entire bible is for every Christian. I believe not ALL of the O.T. was written by inspiration of God but by man's hand - this could easily be proven.
But what is written there by God is certainly for us.

What Jesus spoke must be accepted above and beyond what any of the other writers spoke and wrote since Jesus is God and man may make mistakes, but Jesus never made a mistake in HIS words.

As to the Kingdom...
Jesus came to set up HIS Kingdom on earth...right now.
Did it fail? Maybe. Maybe not. A different thread.
But it was for every believer to be a part of.

But do you believe in an earthly Kingdom at the end of our time?
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
so why do the religious tell us the only thing hidden was that the Gentile were going to be saved too. This fact was never hidden.

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5, Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6, That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


The only thing that saves a person is their faith, belief, trust and confidence in what Jesus did for them on the cross.

Repentance is also important. See Luke 13:1-5.

Luk 13:1, There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2, And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

Luk 13:3, I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4, Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5, I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
 
Last edited:

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
After 4 years on these forums, I still don't really understand dispensationalism
It is not very complicated. There is a progression of revelation from Genesis to Revelation, which culminates in "the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God [the Father] gave unto Him".

Dispensationalism is simply an attempt to interpret Scripture properly so that what was applicable during the duration of one covenant was not automatically carried over to another to confuse Christians. So the dispensations and covenants are tied together, and ultimately there will be a "dispensation of the fulness of times" when the Kingdom of God will be established throughout the earth.

One of the important contributions of Dispensationalism is to show Christians that Replacement Theology, Covenant Theology, Amillennialism, and Preterism are all false, because they are not based on rightly dividing (interpreting) the Word of Truth. The fundamental premise of Dispensationalism is that the written Word of God must be taken in its plain literal sense, comparing Scripture with Scripture, and letting the Holy Spirit harmonize everything so that there are no conflicts or confusion.
Jesus came to set up HIS Kingdom on earth...right now.
Where you went off is in the "right now". If the Kingdom of God would be literally operational "right now" there would be ABSOLUTE PEACE AND RIGHTEOUSNESS on this earth. Obviously, the exact opposite is the case, which means that it is only AFTER the Second Coming of Christ that His Kingdom will be literally established on earth. In the meantime "the Kingdom of God is within you" (meaning it is only visible to God who sees who are His genuine children).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen
B

brakelite

Guest
Dispensation of grace? I would strongly suggest that since God promised Adam and Eve that her seed would bruise Satan's head, the human race has been under grace. In fact, no-one, from Adam to the last person alive on this planet, will be saved by anything other than grace.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,083
5,276
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Part of the perplexity of this is that there is a difference between saved and salvation and that there is something very pressing going
on during Christ's ministry that most miss.