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John Calvin and Calvinism.

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Lifelong_sinner, Jan 2, 2022.

  1. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    There are people that consider Calvinism as a cult. In the truest sense it is not normally practiced as a cult.
    But there are issues that make Calvinists "prown" in some cases to apply their religion as a cult. Convincing a mother that they must be submissive by direction of the Word of God. They are convinced that God wants them to be submissive. And there are passages in the Bible that would suggest that the mother has no right to refuse her husband and she is his to take. Since the Bible does not list abuse as a reason to leave her husband, he can beat her and force himself on her and she may feel that the Word of God tells her that she must stay and take it. Then the children are raised in this atmosphere of spare the rod and spoil the child. They see their mother being beat so they think it is normal for them to beat. And then the male children are taught to do this to their wives and children. If you notice there are none or few female Calvinists on this forum. Ask them why? This is the side of Calvinism that leans toward cultism and it is the reason that Interventionists and law enforcement are called in to attempt rescues.

    But still some Calvinists are better than other....but placing women in submissive subjection is a common practice.

    You can look at a religion and usually see what motivates it and the character of the people that subscribe to it. The Jehovah's Witnesses study the Bible to prove that Christ was not God and Hell is not real. There is a reason why Charles "Taze" Russell did that. This is another religion where women and children are forced to be submissive and abuse is common.

    The Calvinists comb the scriptures to support their absurd beliefs that blasphemes God....the Witnesses comb the scriptures to deny the Deity of Christ. What drives these people, what motivates them? We cannot keep blaming John Calvin and Taze....they are dead. Some people are attracted to blaspheming God and this is part of it....the desire to be different....that is the reason a lot of times young people are attracted to witchcraft ....Just to get attention and be different.

    A lot of words and sentences in the Bible...They can formulate a lot of crazy religions that involves flying saucers. They can say because Yahweh killed in large number and taught His people to kill that He is a God of murder. Some one could come up with beliefs that say God was a fertility God because the symbol of the Old Covenant was the circumcised penis and He regulated polygamy and concubinage and most of His promises to individuals involved multiplying their descendants as the stars in the sky, the sands of the shores, and the dust of the earth. Some could find reason that God hates women and they should be enslaved. That Christ was crucified as a punishment for His Father's atrocities. If it is in your nature to find evil you can interpret the scriptures to be evil.

    As it stands predestination as a reality....the puppet show....serves no purpose.
    The only thing it does theologically is blasphemes God.
    And the only person that it benefits is Satan because it guarantees Satan a quota of souls.
    So ultimately, Calvinism only purpose is to blasphemes God and serves Satan.


    So on Judgment Day it all depends on Christ's judgment on blasphemers and those that serve Satan as to whether or not they go to hell.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
  2. Lifelong_sinner

    Lifelong_sinner Well-Known Member

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    So, its been 11 pages so far about why some love or hate calvinism. This forum in some small degree reflects i believe the religious microcosm of American religion. I get that not everyone on here is an American or from here, but i see things that are argued about on here, being argued in the real world. Obviously calvinism is a hot topic.
    Some of the topics being debated on here, are topics that were debated 500 yrs ago. If calvin came back to life, and we showed him this forum, he would think “why are yall still arguing over the same topics as he did?” Ultimately, i think there is a lot about God that we will never know in this life. And i’m ok with that. Ultimate knowledge isnt what saves.

    When i’m asked why am i a calvinist, i tell people, first, in my early years, i had no desire for God. Then, i realized i did, not for knowledge, but out of need. I grew up going to a disciples of Christ church for majority of my life. But then, i saw a lot of issues that i disagreed with. And then, i heard calvinism but i didnt know it was calvinism. As time went on, i became more attracted to it because i had never been so convicted after hearing another doctrine. Calvinism showed me why God was important. I became a calvinist, then i became a presbyterian. I was considered quite the radical in my family about this. But they had never heard about calvinism either. And they struggled with it when they did hear it.

    The reason that i have decided to become a calvinist is because of RC Sproul. He said once, without good doctrine, you’ll never be able to defend your faith even to yourself when an outside source smarter than you comes along. It was then that i decided calvinism, the Westminster confessions, and the Bible were my beliefs, my doctrine, my need. And for once in my life, i’m sticking by this decision, thick and thin.
     
  3. PinSeeker

    PinSeeker Active Member

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    It's none of that. Calvinism is not abstruse, arcane, mysterious, complex, complicated, erudite, inscrutable or unfathomable for the common man.

    Grace and peace to you. It's really assigning things other than true Calvinism to Calvin and his exposition of Scripture. For various reasons, people do, however, distort it into something it's not, and others just buy in, sometimes blindly. And that's very Biblical; as Paul says in 2 Timothy 4:3, many do not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions.

    Grace and peace to you.
     
  4. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    Hyper=Calvinism, is not "sound teaching" or sound theology/doctrine.
    It just becomes one more cult, that, when you are in it, you think its correct.
    When you find out it isnt, then you leave it.....however the damage done by these heretics on forums and from pulpits, is enormous.
     
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  5. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Is what you are saying deceptive. Is it a shell game. Speak oh toothless wonder! Talking out your tail because your mouth knows better?

    Distort....LOL...Calvinism has been around a while....not much to misunderstand. Say it like it is. John Calvin had his limitations but hey, not to uncommon. Calvinism is not exactly what John started, but it has not got better. But I will play your game, here is your opportunity to set the record straight.

    Does Calvinism preach that God express His sovereignty through total predestination or limited predestination or no predestination at all?

    Does Calvinism preach irresistible Grace or Hyper-grace?

    Does Calvinism preach that individual salvation or damnation was set before the creation period?

    Once God predestines an individual before creation to damnation....is there any escape?

    Does Calvinism preach the total depravity of Mankind?

    Does Calvinism preach unconditional election....the elect?

    What are the elect?

    Does Calvinism preach a phrase....limited atonement....which means, Christ died for the sins of the elect alone, and no atonement was provided for the reprobate?

    Does Calvinism preach a phrase Perseverance of the saints.....which means OSAS?
     
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  6. PinSeeker

    PinSeeker Active Member

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    Yes, that's a good idea. Let's.

    Here is at least part of the misunderstanding. Number 1, number 2, and number 3 are certainly true. But number 4 and number 5 are not commandments ~ a commandment being an order, a mandate, an edict, a law ~ of God. They are both part of a general call made by God to all men; repentance and belief are together the vehicle that God has provided for men to be saved. And He invites all to it; this is the general call of the Gospel. More on this in a moment.

    So are there no commandments for us Christians today? No, of course that's not the case. So what is God's law for Christians today? Well, the law of Christ, of course. Paul tells the Galatian Christians (and us, by extension; Galatians 6:2) to "(c)arry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ” (emphasis added). What exactly is the law of Christ, and how is it fulfilled by carrying each other’s burdens? He also mentions the law of Christ in 1 Corinthians 9:21 ~ "To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law."

    Now, nowhere does the Bible specifically define what, precisely, the law of Christ is. But the law of Christ is commonly understood to be what Christ Jesus Himself stated were the greatest commandments:

    “‘Which commandment is the most important of all?’ Jesus answered, ‘The most important is, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.” The second is this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” There is no other commandment greater than these’” (Mark 12:28-31).​

    Matthew records this same event and quotes Jesus thusly:

    "On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 22:40).​

    The law of Christ, then, is to love God with all of our being and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.

    Again, He doesn't command men to repent and believe. This is the vehicle that God has provided for men to be saved, and God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4) But it's not a command, but rather an invitation, and outward call, in the same sense as Jesus's Great Banquet parable in Luke 14, one of His Kingdom parables, which He begins by saying, "A man..." ~ this man represents God in this parable ~ "...once gave a great banquet and invited many" (Luke 14:16, emphasis added). So, there is no "absurdity." What I see is misunderstanding. The only question is whether it is inadvertent or intentional, and it seems to be a bit of both, really.

    Grace and peace to all.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
  7. PinSeeker

    PinSeeker Active Member

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    Agreed. This was my point, or one of them, anyway. Yes, hyper-Calvinism is not Calvinism at all, nor is it Biblical. But hyper-Calvinism is what many people, as evidenced by some of the posts by several here, are really reacting negatively to, without even realizing it, apparently. And ~ well, for slightly different reasons ~ people who really understand what John Calvin taught (Calvinists) react just as negatively to hyper-Calvinism.

    Grace and peace to you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
  8. Lifelong_sinner

    Lifelong_sinner Well-Known Member

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    oh boy, i wanna handle this one.
    1. Total predestination.
    2. Irresistible grace.
    3. Yes.
    4. No.
    5. Yes.
    6. Yes.
    7. The elect are those chosen by God before time to be redeemed and given eternal life in Heaven with Him.
    8. Yes.
    9. Yes.

    ok i think i got all them in the right order. But im getting that you think the unsaved wont goto hell?? Universalism??
     
  9. TEXBOW

    TEXBOW Well-Known Member

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    I do not see that correlation in his view at all. I think its opposite.
     
  10. Lifelong_sinner

    Lifelong_sinner Well-Known Member

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    well he brought up the issue of reprobates having a chance. That screams universalism.
     
  11. PinSeeker

    PinSeeker Active Member

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    Is this a question? :) If so, the answer is no. Not at all.

    Yeah no.

    I agree. That's why it's amazing that so many folks, for one reason or another, attribute so many beliefs to John Calvin and Calvinists that are so antithetical to what John Calvin actually said and what Calvinists actually believe.

    Well, there's not "game," and I have "set the record straight" many times recently, in this thread and a few others. But okay, let's do it again.

    Well, Paul and Peter speak explicitly about predestination, so it can't be "no predestination at all," right? Well, right. Of course. And in the context of what they say, God predestines "us," meaning believers, for, as Paul says in Ephesians 1, adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will." Now think about that. If God has predestined some but not all to election ~ and He has ~ does it not follow by resistless logic that some are not predestined to election? If all salvation is based upon the eternal election of God and not all men are elect from eternity ~ which is true ~ does that not mean that from eternity there are non-elect who most certainly will not be saved? Sure it does. Has not God chosen from eternity not to elect some people? Yes. If so, then we have an eternal choice ~ made by God, Who alone is eternal ~ of non-election, which we call reprobation. The inference is clear and necessary, yet some shrink from drawing it. By predestining many, He purposely omits others from this predestination, and in so doing, does ~ through that omission ~ predestine the others also. Paul addresses the inevitable objection you yourself are raising in Romans 9:19-24

    "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

    I don't even know what what "hyper-grace" is... LOL! But if God purposes to save an individual ~ if he or she is a member of God's elect ~ then yes, it's going to happen. His purposes cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2). As Paul says in Romans 8, "...those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified," and in Philippians 1, "...He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." His salvific grace is irresistible in the sense that, again, His purposes cannot be thwarted. And irresistible in the sense that, once our hearts are regenerate, or born again, of the Holy Spirit, we will... well, resist resisting, if that make sense ~ our eyes will be opened to see God for Who He is, and then we will freely repent and believe, because we are then wholly inclined towards Him, even of Him, rather than against Him and not of Him as we formerly were.

    John Calvin, and Calvinists since his time up to today, fully acknowledge that, as Paul says in Ephesians 1:4, "...He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." Do you not? If not, that's a problem... :)

    Well, see above. Your question doesn't really make sense, really. If God predestines some to adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, and by irresistible logic that some are not predestined to election so then by omission predestined to non-election, then if we are to say there is an "escape," then predestination is not predestination, which is an absurdity. Here again I would point to what Paul says in Romans 9:19-24, cited above.

    It preaches man's (all men's) natural sinful state ~ being at enmity with (positive, active hatred or ill will toward) God ~ is acquired/inherited at birth as a result of Adam's fall and the imputation of his unrighteousness and need to be freed from the law of sin and death, for salvation by God, through God, and to God. In this way, though we might be, in the worldly sense, "nice folks," or "good people," we are totally depraved. So yes. Sin is way, way short-changed by many.

    Sure, Election is God's purpose, and it depends on God and his mercy/compassion, which he will have on some and not on others. It does not depend on man's will or strength, but on God, Who has mercy (or not). This is exactly what Paul says in Romans 9:14-18...

    What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.

    Those chosen by God before the foundation of the world and predestined for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will (Ephesians 1:4). "(T)hose whom He foreknew..." ~ synonymous with 'fore-loved' ~ and "...also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son" (Romans 8:29).

    Yes and no. Christ's work of atonement on the cross was most certainly sufficient to achieve the salvation of all, so in this sense, it is unlimited. But Christ's work is only effectual for the elect, and it is in this sense that His atonement is limited. As Jesus said Himself:

    "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:37-40, emphasis added)​

    Yes. See Jesus's quote from John 6 cited above. And Romans 8, and Ephesians 2, and Philippians 1-2, and 1 Peter 1, and James 1, and... :) You get the point, surely. "The calling of God..." ~ which always, without fail, results ultimately in glorification (Romans 8:28-30) ~ "...(is) irrevocable" (Romans 11:29). We are kept in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit to the day of Christ:

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice... you (are)... obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls." (1 Peter 1:3-9)​

    So, I've answered all these questions (if they are really questions at all) using pretty much straight Scripture. Like I have said, "Calvinism/Schmalvinism...." :) ~ God's truth is God's truth. If you think I have erred in any way, point it out and we can discuss it.

    Grace and peace to you, Grailhunter.
     
  12. TEXBOW

    TEXBOW Well-Known Member

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    I understood that too mean a sinner can accept Christ, be born again. The Apostle Paul is a good example.
     
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  13. Lifelong_sinner

    Lifelong_sinner Well-Known Member

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    Reprobates dont usually get converted.
     
  14. TEXBOW

    TEXBOW Well-Known Member

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    I might have misunderstood but I don't think so.
     
  15. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Not looking for scripture.....what are the beliefs of Calvinism? They are yes or no questions.
    You are not the only Calvinist that wants to say that people do not understand Calvinism.
    But there is not much to misunderstand.
    And I am not addressing variances of Calvinism....not that we cannot discuss that separately.
    So yes or no for answers and if there is a maybe...we can discuss that.
     
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  16. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Good people to Heaven and bad people to hell.....no universalism in my beliefs or the Bible.
    Be good and do good.
     
  17. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Reprobates in relation to Calvinism....
    Calvinist theologian Wayne Grudem defines reprobation as “the sovereign decision of God before creation to pass over some persons, in sorrow deciding not to save them, and to punish them for their sins, and thereby to manifest his justice.”[1] The doctrine of reprobation, which is essential to Calvinism as the necessary corollary to the doctrine of unconditional election,[2] asserts that there is a certain group of persons who have never been and will never be the objects of God’s redeeming love regardless of whether or not they hear the gospel. God has determined not to give this certain group of individuals the grace and faith necessary for salvation. He does not base this.
     
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  18. PinSeeker

    PinSeeker Active Member

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    It matters not, really, what the beliefs of Calvinism are ~ although they are (in part, anyway, because John Calvin talked about many things beyond the questions that you asked...) exactly as I delineated in detail above, exactly as I answered every single one ~ every single one ~ of your questions.

    That's being too overly critical, an over-simplification. Which is ~ no offense intended here ~ a form of ignorance, really. But I gave you exactly what you asked for. See above. Hey, one of the questions was, "What are the elect?". That's an open-ended question, not a yes or no question. And others, certain questions themselves, deserved a little clarification and Scriptural references, which I provided.

    Well aware of that... :)

    Wholeheartedly agreed. But it does take a little diligence to take in, as Scripture does.

    In and by discussing various Scriptural passages, I am discussing Calvinism as it really is. Which is what you asked me to do. In every single question. See above.

    That's really exactly what I gave you, Grailhunter. See above.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
  19. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like a whole lot of being evasive.
    Not looking for a debate on why Calvinists believe what they believe.
    I am not ignorant on Calvinist beliefs and anyone can read Calvin's writings and or the Westminster confession.
    The only wiggle room is that.....not everyone believes the doctrine of their denomination.
    You may or may not agree with John Calvin. The questions come from what John wrote. I am asking if you agree or disagree....yes or no.
     
  20. PinSeeker

    PinSeeker Active Member

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    Not in any way, shape, or form. I met all your questions head on, and pulled no punches. :)

    Okay, and I'm not debating that at all. Like I said, though, Calvinism/Schmalvinism; God's truth is God's truth... Thus, my focus on Scripture itself.

    Yes, you are, because you're making statements antithetical to what he said. It's either ignorance or just outright rejection on your part, and like I said, it seems to be a good dose of both. I don't mean that to be offensive to you, but, well, it is what it is.

    Absolutely. I agreed with this before, and I'll agree with it until I'm blue in the face. :)

    I'm not sure what denomination John Calvin was a member of, if any at all. At that time, it was really Catholicism or Protestant, and as you know, there are many denominations since then that fall under the Protestant heading. That was the purpose of the Reformation, started, really, by Martin Luther ~ to reclaim Biblical Christianity from the errors of Catholicism.

    Ahhh, well, again, some of your questions needed clarification, because they themselves arose in the form they did from an apparent misunderstanding or ignorance of what Calvin wrote.

    Right. See above. Yes, I am a Calvinist, and a "five-point Calvinist" at that. I was quite clear about Calvinism and by extension myself. See above. Of course, I'm kind of anticipating that you'll try to put words in my mouth, but I really hope not. :)

    Grace and peace to you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
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