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Featured Judaizers! They Live!!!! They walk among us!!!

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Grailhunter, Sep 5, 2019.

  1. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    A little bit of humor and a lot of facts. They lurk among us, still after all these years! Looking for the good and righteousness in the Mosaic Laws and Jewish culture. Could be our preacher, could be our grandpa, or our friends. They come to us quoting Old Testament Laws and religious thought. Forgetting that cruelty and vengeance was the spirit of the Mosaic Law and culture. “eye for an eye” Also forgetting that the Mosaic Law regulated Polygamous marriages and concubinage and a host of other misogynic beliefs. Hey guys, see what you wife thinks about a few others in bed! Here is another Mosaic Law, Deuteronomy 20:13-14 Speaking of inhabited land; When the Lord your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the Lord your God has given you….From this Moses ordered thousands of women that were not virgins and all the male children killed. Numbers chapter 31…just read the whole thing. Now you can defend this, explain this, or like it, but can you imagine Christ saying something like this in the New Testament? You might not, but the Jews of Christ’s time were praying for it. It is an entirely different religious character! And the Jewish prophets did not do Christ any favors either. 700 years before Christ they were prophesying that the terrible day of the Lord was at hand. Joel 2:1 They prophesied that the Messiah would be a human warlord king that would put down their oppressors and the Jews would rule the world with the Mosaic Law written on the hearts of all men. (More than one prophet, that is a study in its self.) So when Christ shows up they are primed for a war. But instead of a warlord, they got “the Lord” a peace loving God of forgiveness and salvation for all. That was a big disappointment to the Jews! And being a God, He was a walking blasphemy to their religion. So the prophets set Christ up for failure and because of the Mosaic Law, He had a lot work ahead of Him to correct that morality and still today Judaizers fight against Christ’s efforts. So most of the Jews rejected Him and instigated His death. But I should make it clear that the Jews still have a covenant with God, and that covenant includes the Mosaic Law. But neither really has anything to do with Christianity.

    The ministry of the Apostle Paul and the Judaizers that followed him around and wanted to force Judaism on Christianity. Like Paul, Christians today have Judaizers that preach and include the Mosaic Law in their beliefs. Many of the Judaizers of today are usually legalists that are drawn to the Old Testament laws and morales and their hard line concept of total obedience or you are lost. In the New Testament, it is evident that Paul was no stranger to adversity. He was beat, stoned, imprisoned, and eventually beheaded. More or less a murderer himself, he understood the power of Christ’s forgiveness first hand. Throughout his ministry Paul was harassed by the Jews to include Judaism, Jewish customs, and the Mosaic Law into Christianity. Act 13:44-52, 14:4-6, 14:19-20 15:1 But it did not stop him and he was not alone. He had a group of fellow disciples and Apostles like, Peter, Barnabas, Luke, Mark, and others which included several females. I will call them deaconesses....The original Greek says: οὖσαν διάκονον, ousan diakonon, being [the] [female] servant of the church at Cenchreae. The word "diakonon" means servant in nearly all of its 30 uses in the New Testament, but may also be used to refer to the church office of deacon. In the truest sense they carried out the business of the Church and Paul’s ministry. So whatever you want to call them.

    Paul’s group, (No disrespect to our beloved Peter intended.) The ministry of Paul’s group was to the Pagans….Gentiles. This caused a lot of discontent among the Jews. The more you know about the Jewish culture and religion the easier it is to understand how this could cause big trouble. The Jews had lived under the 613 Mosaic Laws for a long time. It is a burden that most Christians can not fathom. Impossible to keep for your average Jew, and the exceptions were few. So heaven was not an option. All Jews were gathered with their fathers in shoal, with a couple exceptions….maybe. The other issue was that God the Father never seemed to like the Pagans in the Old Testament and then the Jews hated the Romans. The Mosaic Law had prohibitions regarding any agreement with them and that went dido for marrying a Pagan. So for the Jews that had accepted Christ as the Messiah, now His ministry was welcoming them in to the fold. The Jews had waited and hoped for the Messiah and salvation for a long time, now it was just being handed to the Pagans, on the basis of belief, how long had the Jews believed! To them this whole scenario was wrong and sacrilegious on several levels. So you might get a sense of how they felt….but that was God’s choice. Regardless they were going to try to insist that the Gentiles adhere to the 613 Mosaic Laws and customs.

    So a group of Jews took it upon themselves to follow Paul’s group around and harass him and instigate trouble. So it was decided to go to Jerusalem and get a ruling on this. Now Peter had, had a vision on the suspension of dietary restrictions. Act 10:1-33 So these are the issues they are going to discuss. They meet in Jerusalem for a meeting---a council. We do not know the attendance of the meeting, no role call, but the Bible describes it as a multitude and I would have loved to have seen that because I believe that Peter and Paul and Barnabas would have made a good team. Acts chapter 15 starting at verse 1

    And some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue. Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren. When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.” The apostles and the elders came together to look into his matter. After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.” All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.




     
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  2. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    James’s Judgment
    After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, “Brethren, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,

    After these things I will return,
    And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen,
    And I will rebuild its ruins,
    And I will restore it,
    So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
    And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’
    Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.

    Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, and they sent this letter by them,

    “The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings. “Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. “Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth. “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.” So when they were sent away, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter. When they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement. Judas and Silas, also being prophets themselves, encouraged and strengthened the brethren with a lengthy message. After they had spent time there, they were sent away from the brethren in peace to those who had sent them out. But it seemed good to Silas to remain there. But Paul and Barnabas stayed in Antioch, teaching and preaching with many others also, the word of the Lord. Ending with verse 35

    Of course that was not the end of it, Paul and his group were still getting harassed and struggled against the Judaizers, as seen in the book of Galatians. But in his letters he made it clear that Christians were not under the Law. Paul really had nothing good to say about the Law…..

    2ND Corinthians 3:7-18 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory. Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

    Galatians 3:1-5 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

    Galatians 3:24-26 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

    Romans 4:15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation.

    Romans 5:13 For until the Law sin was in the world; sin is not imputed when there is no Law.

    This one is important but long, basically Romans chapter 6. “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? May it never be! How shall we who died in sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in the newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin…….10 & 11 For the death that He died, He did to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Jesus Christ.
     
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  3. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under the law, but under grace 18 Being then free from sin, you become the servants of righteousness.

    Romans 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

    Romans 7:8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

    Romans 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath you free from the law of sin and death.

    Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    Words mean things! lol

    Hebrews 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

    1st Cor. 9:20 And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, through not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law;

    2nd Cor. 3:3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of human hearts.

    Galatians..Oh my gosh!

    Galatians 4:21 “Tell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?”

    Galatians 5:3&4 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

    Galatians 3:12 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us.

    Hebrews 10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never by the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw near.

    Act 13:38-39 Paul said, Therefore let it be known to you brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

    And a snippet for those of us that love the ECF’s
    Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians
    Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour you shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believes might be gathered together to God

    So as a whole is Judaism compatible with, or even part of Christianity? Christ did not think so.

    Matthew 9:16-17 But no one puts a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; for the patch pulls away from the garment, and a worse tear results. Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; But they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved.”

    Christ is not only saying that Judaism and Christianity are not compatible, but also that Judaism can ruin Christianity.

    So what did Christ say about the Mosaic Law.

    Well there was a time that the Pharisees came testing Christ, and one of them, a lawyer tested Him saying, Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law? And Christ replied, YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND. This is the great and foremost commandment. And a second is like it, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the prophets. Matthew 22:36-40

    Matthew 5:17-20 Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Now oddly enough some Christians believe what Christ was saying here, was that Christians are under all or some of the 613 Mosaic Laws. That is not what He was saying at all. The Mosaic Law is alive and well….all 613 Laws….for those of the Old Covenant…for the Jews. The body of the Law will not change…there will be no additional Laws or any removed and they will remain intact and in effect until all things are accomplished. You cannot change a single letter, cannot amputate a Law to follow
     
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  4. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    and or ignore the rest. If you have a desire to follow any part of the Mosaic Law, you need to give up Christianity and be a Jew. If you pull the Ten Commandments out to sight as religious guidance or observance you have commit 613 sins. If you violate one Law, you violate them all. James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. The Mosaic Law is a body of Laws, amputate a finger and you violate the whole body. If you post the Ten Commandments you posted 613 sins or 613 times ten depending on how you look at it. The only saving grace is that some of the Apostles referenced some of the Ten Commandments, and I say “some” because the phrase “Ten Commandments” does not appear in the New Testament and the Apostles only referenced a few but still never said, “These are your Laws.’ Of the first ten laws we do not observe the Sabbath, the Saturday holyday of the Jews, we observe the Lord’s day on Sunday, and even at that, we have a choice to pick another day, because we are not governed by the Law. Engraved images… You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. NASB Or Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: KJV That is pretty much any image made by man, figurine, statue, picture, or video …. television. We pretty much blew that one out of the water. Christianity has always had symbols and images. What would a Church be without a cross or a crucifix? The New Testament teaches us not to covet…. "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor."…We do not covet but, human beings are not listed along with our property. And then; Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. This one is funny! Again many Christians do not understand Judaism or the culture. In a legal system where the testimony of two or three can get someone executed, there has to be a Law against false witness. People think this means; Thou shalt not lie. No, that is not what it means. I can take you on a walk through the Old Testament and prove that trickery and deceit was considered wisdom. The story of Jacob and Esau is a prime example. God even sided with Jacob on this one. This is a concept that exists in the Middle East even to this day. When the Americans sit down in good faith with the Moslems to come to an agreement, they consider us fools because we believe good people do not lie and they believe good people do lie. So they take what they can from the arrangement, never intending to honor what they agreed to. Whatever Laws that are left that are common sense, Christ and the Apostles explained better. For those that like the word “Law” the New Testament has the Law of Christ, the Law or Liberty, and the Royal Law. But in the New Testament the truth will set you free….so they are not really Laws. 1st Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

    Why do modern Judaizers do what they do? Why do they quote the Old Testament? It does have some religious and historical information, the creation story and other biblical stories. A lot of it is because they do not understand Judaism or know the 613 Mosaic Laws. They are usually drawn to some of the first ten laws but they do not have much interest in the rest of them. You cannot blame them, who would want to believe that God’s wisdom and righteousness came up with a Law that if a woman is raped in the city and she did not scream, she whould be killed with the man that raped her. Deuteronomy 22:23 Would Christ say anything like that? Or how about the Mosaic Law that says that if a Hebrew wife did not bleed (sign of virginity) on her wedding night that her husband could kill her and leave her on her father’s doorstep. Deuteronomy 22:20 Now I am sure pointing this out, even though it is true it could offend some, but I assure you I am in good company because Christ had issues with the Mosaic law. Matthew 19:8 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.” And another Mosaic Law that He had issues with….But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty, life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. Exodus 21:23-24 Christ addressed this in Matthew 5:38-39 You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

    Again a lot of the interest in the Old Testament Laws are because they do not understand Judaism or know the 613 Mosaic Laws. If they would go through them line for line they would understand that they do not apply to Christianity nor would they want them to. Christ removed us from the burden of the Law. The Mosaic Law is a template for the morals and righteousness of the Old Testament but it had its flaws on both counts, morals and righteousness. Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. And one of those faults was that none of it led to salvation.

    In the New Testament, God walked among us. It is a different type of teaching, a different type of relationship. He lived, worshiped, ate, slept, and walked with us. And He kinda liked us….In the end, He called us friends. There is no Law or religious teaching in the Old Covenant that can hold a candle to Christ’s teachings. No reason to reach back into the teachings or philosophical comments of men in the Old Testament, when you have the best that God had to offer in the New Testament. They are two different covenants, two different religious teachings, mixing them only causes confusion and muddies the living water of the truth. I love the Jewish people, and have had many Jewish friends. They are a good people, so if you love the Law go be one, Bon Appétit. If you want to be a Christian, focus on Christ our Lord, our God, our Messiah, He is enough.
     
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  5. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Well-Known Member

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    It took me awhile but I got through it all!
    I love the New Covenant! The Law makes me a slave to sin....I don't need to be enslaved to sin...I desire to be SET FREE from the law of sin and death! Hallelujah! Hosanna to the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the Rock of my Salvation! My Redeemer! Blessed be the Name of the Lord! I call Him Jesus! Yeshua!
     
  6. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Well thanks. Hope it was a blessing to you....even if it wore your eyes out. lol
     
  7. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    What was posted is a monster strawman
     
  8. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Well-Known Member

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    Oh it was a blessing, I have already studied the Mosaic Law....started a thread a couple of years ago inquiring the difference between the Law of Moses and the 10 Commandments or Law of God and did Jesus do away with both? The new commandments to Love...God first....neighbor second.
     
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  9. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Well-Known Member

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    No it isn't....it is truth.
     
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  10. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    Doyou believe Christians are lawless?
     
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  11. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Well-Known Member

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    I do! According to the law of Moses....it is not applicable to Christians.We are bound by man made laws that govern....
    Do you understand The New Covenant?
     
  12. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    lol Ya we are a lawless bunch! Particularly if you are Jew, I could see that statement. The Law of Christ, the law of Liberty, the Royal Law....but no Mosaic Law....
     
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  13. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    I do...
    10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

    12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

    13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
     
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  14. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    Do you understand that Jesus gave the law to Moses?

    Can you define the :"royal law".
    Can you define the law of Christ?
     
  15. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    There is none of that, that makes any sense
     
  16. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Long, but good read!

    :)
     
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  17. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Love.

    Obeying Jesus.
     
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  18. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    That's always the accusation. Paul addressed this, I imagine that you know where. Do you?

    Much love!
     
  19. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Leading question, because I know you can define both those laws.
     
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  20. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    For the Israelites, as an ethnic people.

    It's actually quite impossible to keep the Law here today. At least I don't know any Levites to give my tithes to.

    Much love!
     
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