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Featured Judge Not...

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Scoot, Jul 27, 2020.

  1. Scoot

    Scoot Well-Known Member

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    JUDGE NOT

    I raise this topic, not looking to preach - but looking for answers, and would love comment on where I am wrong, or what I'm missing, or what I could have done better in the scenario below.

    Matt 7:1-5 says

    I have heard this verse used many time to say that we shouldn't judge ever / at all, and mind our own business. Likewise, I see in John 8:1-7 that people were quick and willing to Judge:

    But Jesus also mentions in John 7:24

    And Paul goes on to judge in 1 Cor 5:3-13

    We're also told in 2 Jn 1:9-11

    Are not these scriptures talking about judging?

    So... we have one of these places where the bible appears contradicts itself (at least first).

    Now - anyone who knows me knows that I don't believe this is possible - and when I see contradiction I get excited because it means that I am misunderstanding the scriptures, not that the scriptures are wrong and in conflict with each other. That when I have the correct understanding, these scriptures won't conflict - but rather will complement each other - thus giving confidence that I'm understanding them correctly.

    Over the years I have come to the following conclusions:

    Firstly - Jesus didn't say to not take the spec out of our brothers eye. He told us to deal with the plank in our own eye first - and THEN to take the speck out of our brothers eye.

    When it came to the woman caught in adultery - the mob didn't seem to be interested in her best interest - they appeared eager to condemn and stone that woman. It was all about what others are doing wrong, whilst feeling self-righteous ignoring their own sins. It seems the verses about not judging appear more about attitude. ie: I should not be wanting to judge - but to help.

    I should be willing to help a brother that I see has an issue - but first I need to be willing to be corrected myself - and deal with my problems as humbly (if not more) than how I expect my brother to accept my help - and likewise I should approach them in the way that I would like to be approached if the shoe was on the other foot.

    Galatians 6:1 seems to back this up...

    So the pattern I'm seeing here is that first - it's not our role to judge those outside the church. Period. They are lost. Whether they commit a particular sin or not is irrelevant - even if they stop say homosexuality - that will benefit them nothing - they are sinners and individual sin for those who are unsaved is not the issue - and not worth focusing on.

    That doesn't mean that we don't identify what's being done as sin - but to judge them is useless (or even more so - damaging).

    However - there is a responsibility of us however to judge those in the church - but in a very specific way. The attitude should be of love - one of wanting to see the best for that person - and see them repentant - not one of wanting to see them condemned. Only as a last resort do we go to an action of 'judgement'...

    Mat 18:15-17

    So what I take away from this is that we will be judged according to the measure that we judge others. If we have a heart to see the best outcome in others - and act accordingly - we will have the same judgement used against us. If we judge with condemnation and pride - the same measure of judgement will be used against us.

    And of course we have Paul above saying that someone who calls themselves a brother - who continues to sin willfully - don't associate with such a person to the point of not even eating with them. And that's where things start to get interesting...

    But first - I know I have a weakness - that it is easy for me to be judgemental. My father was always quick to judge, and that's a family trait that I have been fighting with for ages.

    So as I read these verses I'm aware that my flesh would try and persuade me to read them through a lens of justifying judgement.

    But I'm also aware that I'm aware of this - and because of this - I run the risk of taking the other extreme to avoid that - and not judge in a scenario where it is my duty as a loving brother in Christ to say something....
     
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  2. Scoot

    Scoot Well-Known Member

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    ... And here's where the rubber hit the road:

    Two friends of my wife and I (one who was a junior leader in a youth ministry of the church) decided to date. During that time that person through other reasons stepped down from being a leader - but still attended church and was a role model for the youth.

    These two friends decided to start living (and sleeping) with each other. The church was silent (at least publicly) on the issue. My wife and I loved these people and our heart broke for them. We tried on many occasions to speak to them, but they would not listen. They would proclaim that they were "right before God" with what they were doing (said this to us and others).

    In the end we managed to carefully avoid scenario's where we would dine with them but without causing a fuss.... but they then decided to get married. They were saying this was not because they were living in sin - but even stated to others the only reason they were getting married was to shut up people (like us) up.

    And then we were then invited to the wedding reception. Now we couldn't avoid the elephant in the room (not to even eat with them as per 1 Cor 5:9-11). We searched ourselves to see if we could find ourselves at fault. The last thing we wanted was to make a scene and hurt, and in a way we were looking for excuses to attend the wedding.

    So, we prayed and then went on and fasted about it but continued to feel a conviction not to attend the wedding.

    My wife and I spoke about just going anyway - but felt convicted that it would be selfish to do this, because we'd be more worried about our own persecution instead of their eternal outcome.

    So then we thought about arranging it so we just wouldn't be around on that weekend, but we felt that was dishonest.

    We knew the hurt it would cause (we weren't just friends with them, but family was involved - yeah it was messy), but we thought we needed to be transparent and honest with them.

    So with reluctance, but with their best interest in mind, and wanting to be obedient to God - we made the decision not to go.

    We where heavily opposed (to say the least) - but not only by them, but by many others - (including the senior minister of the church at that time!) - accusing our actions of being unloving an judgemental (and of course Mat 7 was the primary verse used). We were told we should be showing Grace. A lot of friends distanced themselves from us after that.

    We checked our heart. We deeply believed that God knows best and that regardless of what it appears - the most loving thing to do was to not go - even if we didn't fully understand why God tells us to do these things. (To me - that is the definition of faith - to trust God even when it doesn't make sense).

    So with that example in mind and pouring out my thought process:

    a) Am I wrong with my understanding of these scriptures? Does "Do not Judge" mean that - across the board, and Paul only judged because he was an apostle - and we have no place for it

    or

    am I kinda on the right path, but rough around the edges and need some cleaning up?​

    and

    b) In the example faced above - did we do wrong? Should have we faced the situation differently, and if so - can you please advise how we could have better faced it (scripture would be very much appreciated).​
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2020
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  3. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I believe that Isaiah 56:1-2 (kjv) and Philippians 1:9 (kjv) ought to be taken into account.

    Isa 56:1, Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
    Isa 56:2, Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

    Phl 1:9, And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;

    I think that other than missing these scriptures, your synopsis of biblical teaching on the matter is right on the money.
     
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  4. Yan

    Yan Active Member

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    We should lived like Jesus had lived, Jesus had never avoid any kind of sinners from a light weight sinners into heavy weight sinners. I think what you have shown on your manner in the wedding are in the righteous manner of obeying God, because God knows your limitation but you maybe lack of giving them information that you were unable to attend the wedding. It's better that you can give them information about your obstacle with another reasonable excuse.
    I think this verse will make up your condition (1 Corinthians 8).
     
  5. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    (in passing)> I thought their intent was to trap Jesus....
     
  6. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    It seems your beliefs are largelyxxxxxxx (sorry, PARTLY) held due to what you were taught growing up, even to the present day.

    With those beliefs you were taught, and with the 'need' to keep a clear conscience,
    that will often cause conflict, as it did in your understanding and situations.

    Later, if God Permits, the truth about which beliefs are not accurate , not in line with God's Word, rather being from tradition, the truth will be revealed and known and accepted and will set you free from those conflicts, while providing a still better clear conscience in God's Presence ...
    (needing to go slow)
    Shalom to you and your household today, in Christ Jesus.
    =======================================================
    QUOTE="Scoot, post: 799046, member: 8745"]So with that example in mind and pouring out my thought process:
    a) Am I wrong with my understanding of these scriptures? Does "Do not Judge" mean that - across the board, and Paul only judged because he was an apostle - and we have no place for it
    or
    am I kinda on the right path, but rough around the edges and need some cleaning up?
    and
    b) In the example faced above - did we do wrong? Should have we faced the situation differently, and if so - can you please advise how we could have better faced it (scripture would be very much appreciated).[/QUOTE
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2020
  7. DPMartin

    DPMartin Well-Known Member

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    well the human view of all that clouds the simple wisdom of God:


    Mat 7:1  Judge not, that ye be not judged. 
    Mat 7:2  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 

    Luk_19:22  And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

    and then Jesus says:


    Joh 5:22  For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 
    Joh 5:23  That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 
    Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 
    Joh 5:25  Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 
    Joh 5:26  For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 
    Joh 5:27  And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 


    what people don't get is God's Judgement is Life and only Life, but any other judgement results in death. Adam and Eve went by their own judgement and died. hence if you judge or better said go by your own judgement hence you will receive your own judgement, and its not God's Judgement therefore the result isn't life.

    what Jesus explains in John here is man is to execute God's Judgements in the earth note "because he is the Son of man". if man executes his own judgement that is not what God made Adam for. God gave man His place in the earth to execute His Judgements in the earth, which is Life.

    everything Jesus did was life and the restoration of life and especially the restoration of the Life of the Son of God in the Son of man.


    Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. 

    so basically God doesn't have to "Judge" you for you to receive the results you deserve. you did that all on your own. the only reason one survives the situation is that God's Judgement is acknowledged by you to His satisfaction which is simply Jesus is Lord and Savior and in that one may become born again receiving the Life of Christ which is worthy.
     
  8. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    Is that like being on the Titanic, and 'judging' all will be all right, instead
    of listening to God
    and getting off before it departs ? i.e. each person who died on the Titanic, mioght have been saved ?
    (God Willing) ....
     
  9. Scoot

    Scoot Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that I shouldn't have been truthful to them about the reasons why I was attending and instead give them another reason so it doesn't hit as hard?

    I appreciate your input, and I'm looking for clarification where I could have improved - but I don't believe being dishonest is the right way to go about it - even if it's to 'soften the blow'.

    My understanding is that Love does not always mean being kind. In contrast - true love sometimes inflicts pain because truth can hurt - especially when someone is in the wrong and needs correcting. (Proverbs 13:24, Proverbs 27:6)

    Confronting sin is never a pleasant thing to do - but to ignore it and allow someone to continue to Hell may seem kind, but in my view it's the most unloving thing to do. Jesus called out the Pharisee's (and with some pretty tough words).

    I agree with you that Jesus never avoided any kind of sinner. But we see that God shows Grace to the humble - but He resists the proud. (James 4:6).

    If they admitted their sin, if they didn't claim to be right before God, or if they even said they were no longer believers, I feel that would have then fallen outside the scope of 1 Cor 5:11. But they claimed to be right before God, good Christians and kept living that way. How else does one apply 1 Cor 5:11 in that situation?
     
  10. Scoot

    Scoot Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your reply Joseph77...

    On the contrary my parents were against what we were doing and discouraged us. So were the ministers in the church I grew up in - including the senior pastor, but they came to me with logic - not with scripture which I couldn't get past. I could justify my own actions as well - extremely easily - but I didn't want justification - I wanted to know what was right. My beliefs are from reading scripture for myself.

    I love God. I love Jesus. I also associate that faith has a large amount of trust - which means believing what God says and being obedient regardless of whether I understand it or not.

    In fact - faith is shown more when we obey Him and it doesn't make sense. When we take that leap of faith that goes against our own understanding. Not having to know why and have God explain to us His ways before being obedient.

    Out from that flows a desire to be obedient to Him. I want to please Him, I want to bless Him and the bible shows me what He desires - and I desire to follow His commands because I love Him. The same reason I buy flowers for my wife. I don't feel obligated, (actually - I don't buy flowers on valentines day - because that would be out of obligation). Rather - I buy her flowers at random to bless her because of my love.

    Our choice wasn't about conscious - it was about seeking His will in the scenario, and be obedient - even if it didn't fully make sense as to why.

    If you believe I did wrong - I'm open - please let me know what you believe we did wrong, or what we could have improved upon. I'm hoping by using real examples that it will make it easier for me to get an understanding.
     
  11. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    (Okay, good , I think mostly we are in agreement that Scripture is the primary standard.)

    When did you learn how you and your wife were to be married ?
    From whom did you learn this ?

    Did you see how they were married in "olden days" ? (without marriage certificates) ? (that long ago - in Biblical days )

    =================================================
    Okay, just typed this out, now putting what is important above this.

    (unimportant, but I think you meant conscience) (that part of us that lets us know when something is wrong, the conscience is a gift from the Father in heaven)
    Consciousness is being not in a coma , or something like that....
    (a lot of times that is just from auto-spelling auto-correcting, and may never make a difference;
    a few times it was important, and did make a difference (mainly in Scripture references posted without texts, when the text/Scripture desired was altogether a different location) ....
    =============
     
  12. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    ....
    realize that the "love" God requires is a choice of the will - not an emotion or "feelings" (like 'falling in love') in the flesh.

    Choosing to obey Him no matter what, no matter the cost, and doing so. (as He Accomplishes this in and for us, in and thru His Purpose and Plan as He Says, in Jesus)
    and DOing what is best for someone else, always (even letting them know that we are commanded by God to always do what is best for them, even if it costs us or hinders us somewhat or a lot) ...

    THinking someone else sinned, judging the servant who is responsible to their master,
    is not for us to do, is it ?
    Putting your own moral restrictions over someone else,
    not from God's Word /Instructions/ , not from God's Plan,
    is what apparently caused the conflict for you ...

    Many people for thousands of years (as far as known), got married without government involvement, and still in the last hundred years many have gotten married without government involvement.

    Some churches frown on that. That's on them. (but in any particular church, it is best of course to do as they say and as they do (two cannot walk together unless they are agreed) ....

    There's no Biblical, Godly requirement to involve government , per se. (and many apparently recognize common law marriages with no ceremony and no license from the government (not sure on this any more) ) ....
     
  13. Scoot

    Scoot Well-Known Member

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    Hi Joseph77,

    Thanks for your patience with me - I think I get where you're coming from. Are you're saying that they may not need to get married legally - because marriage today is a government contract and outside the scope of scripture - and what matters is what they do before God, and not the government, and who am I to judge them on what they do in this instance?

    And to answer your question - as I understand it from scripture - Marriage is a covenant between a man and a woman before God and man. Biblical examples of this normally showed the covenant done among witnesses. Different cultures may have different ways (such as Jacob with Rebekah and Lea) or Jesus at the wedding ceremony when he turned water into wine, but from my observation - a new testement Christian wedding was done with witnesses and as a covenant - not as a decision just to sleep with someone and then later move in with them with no commitment/covenant made before man and God. (There was no such agreement made before any witnesses in this case).

    I've also heard the argument that the first person you sleep with is your spouse and that defines marriage and the covenant - the act is the covenant that is made. Even if that was the case - in this particular instance - that would make them being with each other adultery (without going into the details of their past history).

    But finally - if I was to take the stance that a couple could sleep with each other and that was called marriage, and ignore their history - and my understanding of making a covenant with witnesses is incorrect - how does one differ between fornication and marriage as per 1 Cor 5:11? Or what was Paul referring to in 1 Cor 5:11? From my perspective that would mean that fornication doesn't exist at all, that the first act is a marriage covenant and anything else then after would be an affair /adultery and not fornication, and then make that scripture invalid and void. Obviously I'm missing something here with that scripture if that's the case, because no scripture is invalid and void - so would appreciate explanation in greater detail. :)

    And as for the other - yes - spelling isn't my greatest strength. I use auto-correct but sometimes get it wrong. :)


    Edit: Sorry - just saw your other post:

    Agree absolutely. Don't mistake me saying that I love God so I want to please Him as being feeling based. Love is a choice - a decision. I've been married and through the rough tracks enough to know that I choose to love my wife, even when my feelings sometimes didn't like her - during the rough patches.

    The heart attitude wasn't putting our moral restrictions on them. It was doing our best to be obedient to God according to His word which even though we didn't fully understand it - we believe that God knows better.

    So I hear what you're saying - my question then is if I was to go with what you're saying - and not act - what am I to do with verses that talk about dealing with a sinning brother? Who was Paul to judge those people in 1 Corinthians if I take your view? And what do we do with what Paul commanded there?

    Likewise when we see young people sleeping around in youth groups - is our role not to do or say anything because that would be imposing our moral restrictions on them?

    Likewise for those who want to live a homosexual life in the church?
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2020
  14. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    As it seems you already know what Scripture says about dealing with ongoing sinners who do not repent , there's no purpose in rehashing that yet.

    I thought you at first, earlier, bringing this all up, were asking about someone who for all apparent intents and purposes in their own life, and even in their churches view, were together for life,
    not sleeping around ?
     
  15. Scoot

    Scoot Well-Known Member

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    OK - I think I'm understanding you more...

    Are you saying that them eventually getting engaged, and then married is evidence of their commitment and as such - at that point it was wrong for us to 'not eat with them', and 1 Cor 5:11 didn't apply? That them moving in together and sleeping together - with no commitment (whether legally, or with witnesses before man) was a null and void issue because they have then made a show of commitment by later getting engaged to be married, and eventually married? (Even though they were unrepentant about what happened originally and claiming that they had done no wrong at all the whole time) - and they were right before God in front of the rest of the youth - was none of our business and we shouldn't have acted at all?

    Do you also believe that it's OK for a girlfriend/boyfriend (say teenagers who are still living at their parents) to sleep with each other provided that their intentions are to eventually move in together and stay together for life?

    I'm sorry for the back and forth - it often takes time for me to finally get around to seeing what someone is saying.
     
  16. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    No - this was not ever a consideration.... (except for something earlier not brought up - maybe at the end of this post?) ....
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Did you say this in the first place, did you see this , did they say this ?

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    ???
    Was this verified and stated earlier ? That they were not committed to one another , and they discovered something they were doing was a sin, and they continually refused to repent of sin ?
    (did they ever repent of any sin? did anyone in their church ever repent of any sin?)

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    In the Bible (our Standard),
    (I don't remember the location) but what was a man to do if he was not married, and he went and "knew" a virgin ? (even one he was not betrothed to ) (either or?) .....

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    For contrast/ comparison/ or maybe nothing, when did a man and a woman "become one flesh" in the writings of Scripture ?
    (even if she was a prostitute, if I remember correctly )
     
  17. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    (some Scripture for previous post)
    "1 Corinthians 6:16 ESV
    Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.”"

    ====================================

    Hebrews 10:26 ESV
    For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

    =====================================

    "If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride-price for her and make her his wife. Genesis

    ========================================
     
  18. Scoot

    Scoot Well-Known Member

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    I think get what you're saying. Your saying that the act then forms marriage?

    So - what do we do with 1 Cor 5:11. There's no such thing as fornication with that view? Instead people are married with the first act, and sex with anyone else then falls into adultery, not fornication wouldn't it?

    Q1: Can you please confirm the above statement - and give me an instance where 1 Cor 5:11 applies so I can better gain where your coming from?

    Q2: Would you please explain why you say no? Can you please explain how is this different to what occurred in my example? If they slept with each other, that creates one flesh, and their intention is to stay with each other for life - so what's wrong in that picture that's not wrong in the original situation? (I'm just trying to figure out where the line is that you're drawing between the two instances)

    There was no public commitment made to each other. I didn't see anything other than them moving in together.

    Q3: Are you inferring that people can marry each other (spiritually, not legally) just by sleeping together? If I take what I think you're saying as being correct - why wouldn't what they did be adultery instead (considering that these weren't the first sexual partner of either) - thus still make it immoral, and requiring addressing?

    If we have truly done wrong by them and God convicts us - We are more than willing to contact both of them (who have sadly separated and have been with various partners since) and repent. The whole 'Judge not' and then scriptures that require us to judging is certainly viewed many different ways - and I am no way saying that I'm absolutely right with my take on the issue. That's why I'm chasing clarification because at present I think I understand the point you are trying to make - but there seems to be too many questions remaining in my mind from your perspective on how they relate to other scriptures - hence the questions I'm asking.
     
  19. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    No.
    Nothing of "that view", no. For what is it called , porneia?, or some such, always go by what Scripture says. (not what men say, nor .... anyone besides God)
    Does 1 Corinthians have an example of how that applies ?
     
  20. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    Did you say earlier that this was not their first encounters ?

    That sort of thing is frequent in churches even, for decades now, and even thought not to be inappropriate !

    And it is a whole other ballgame/ still Scripture is the Standard, and violating any commandment is a transgression, as you know.
     
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