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KJV Is Not Fully Translated From the Greek IMO

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by JesusIsFaithful, Aug 15, 2018.

  1. JesusIsFaithful

    JesusIsFaithful Well-Known Member

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    I rely only on the KJV, but there are 3 examples where the KJV has not fully translated the meaning from the Greek text. Luke 17:37; 1 Corinthians 14:4; and Revelation 3:5

    I point out that no modern Bible has done it better either, so be quiet naysayers.

    Luke 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. KJV

    The Greek words paralleling that verse is below:

    kai apokriqenteV legousin autw pou kurie o de eipen autoiV opou to swma ekei sunacqhsontai oi aetoi

    That word "sunacqhsontai" is defined as "from sun - sun 4862 and agw - ago 71; to lead together, i.e. collect or convene; specially, to entertain (hospitably):--+ accompany, assemble (selves, together), bestow, come together, gather (selves together, up, together), lead into, resort, take in."

    That word "aetoi" is defined as "from the same as ahr - aer 109; an eagle (from its wind-like flight):--eagle."

    Granted, contenders would argue that eagles should be vultures, but it can hardly fit the meaning of the Greek words let alone be keeping with the warning to not be like Lot's wife in not wanting to leave and thus not avoiding escaping destruction. So it is not vultures nor is it removing evil from the earth as that verse proves that the ones taken is being received with hospitality and entertainment; hence the pre great tribulation rapture event.

    Luke 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together for celebration.

    To think of all the arguments that can be settled if it was fully translated its meaning from the Greek text, there would be no doubt about a Marriage Supper happening before the great tribulation.

    Next

    1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. KJV

    The Greek words paralleling that verse is below;

    o lalwn glwssh eauton oikodomei o de profhteuwn ekklhsian oikodomei

    The word "eauton" is defined as "from a reflexive pronoun otherwise obsolete and the genitive case (dative case or accusative case) of autoV - autos 846; him- (her-, it-, them-, also (in conjunction with the personal pronoun of the other persons) my-, thy-, our-, your-) self (selves), etc.:--alone, her (own, -self), (he) himself, his (own), itself, one (to) another, our (thine) own(-selves), + that she had, their (own, own selves), (of) them(-selves), they, thyself, you, your (own, own conceits, own selves, -selves)."

    1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself in his own conceits; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

    That would have ended using tongues for private use, would it not?

    Next

    Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. KJV

    The Greek words paralleling that verse are below:

    o nikwn outoV peribaleitai en imatioiV leukoiV kai ou mh exaleiyw to onoma autou ek thV biblou thV zwhV kai exomologhsomai to onoma autou enwpion tou patroV mou kai enwpion twn aggelwn autou

    The word(s) "ou mh " is defined as "i.e. ou - ou 3756 and mh - me 3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all:--any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare mh ouk - me ouk 3378."

    It is a double negative, meaning He would never do that regardless of whatever the believer had done or not do.

    Because of the law on the Book of Revelation, I am not rewriting that verse, but pointing out that the full meaning can be seen as not being conveyed in that verse as it is to be written. It certainly would have settled the matter that no one can lose their salvation regardless.

    That being said, one can still become a castaway as disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper in His honor but because he cannot lose his salvation, he shall be received later on at the end of the great tribulation to be resurrected as a vessel unto dishonor in His House.
     
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  2. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    The verse does not say, "He that believeth, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life ...". If it did, then you would have a case for OSAS. However, it uses "overcometh", not "believeth". An overcomer is someone that made it to the end of their life without abandoning their faith in Yeshua. Such a person cannot possibly lose their salvation. A person that renounces Yeshua before he dies is not an overcomer. Such a person no longer has a sacrifice for his sins and is totally lost. His end is to be burned (Hebrews 6:8).
     
  3. JesusIsFaithful

    JesusIsFaithful Well-Known Member

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    Interesting point, brother, but we do have this reference too.

    1 John 5:1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him....4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

    So we have a case for OSAS, right? You said so.
     
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  4. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    Same answer; a person cannot be an overcomer unless he believes that Yeshua is the Son of God. If he renounces Yeshua, he no longer believes and cannot overcome.
     
  5. JesusIsFaithful

    JesusIsFaithful Well-Known Member

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    You switched out the words overcometh with believeth for Revelation 3:5 in making a point that believeth is not the same thing when the only way he can overcome is by believing in Him which is what 1 John 5:5 validates and why Revelation 3:5 is proof for OSAS.
     
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  6. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    You need to reread my words and meditate on them for they are truth.
     
  7. JesusIsFaithful

    JesusIsFaithful Well-Known Member

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    Brother... you can't have it both ways. You can't say believeth is not the same thing as overcometh in Revelation 3:5 and then turn around and say that it is. How does one overcome? By believing. Then it would be the same as saying believeth in Revelation 3:5, right? So OSAS is true and so is John 6:39 for why OSAS is true.

    No saved believer can lose their salvation, but they can be excommunicated from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven if they are found in unrepentant iniquity. They become castaways and that is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from for why they are in His House still.
     
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  8. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    You are not understanding the time element involved. You can be a believer for 40 years and overcome for 40 years, but if you then renounce Yeshua as your Master and Saviour and die 2 years later, you cannot be an overcomer. Unbelief has overcome you. Believers are not overcomers in the sense that Revelation 3:5 states until they die.

    Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
    If we do not endure to the end we shall not be saved. The person who renounces Yeshua before their end comes is lost.
     
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  9. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    The KJV has correctly translated this verse, and both Strong's Concordance and Thayer's Lexicon indicate that aetoi means eagles. The NASB (and other modern translations) have deliberately ignored this and inserted "vultures".

    Strong's Concordance
    aetos: an eagle
    Original Word: ἀετός, οῦ, ὁ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
    Transliteration: aetos
    Phonetic Spelling: (ah-et-os')
    Short Definition: an eagle, bird of prey

    Definition: an eagle, bird of prey.

    So as far as "fully translated" goes, it has been fully translated: And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

    As to the meaning of this verse, now that is something else. There is no question that it is a very enigmatic verse, but applying it to the Rapture is a possibility.

    Some commentators connect this with the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea by the Romans in 70 AD, and the carcasses of those who died being picked by birds of prey. So it may have some application to dead bodies, although the context indicates that it means something else.

    Jesus mentioned Noah's Flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah in the context of one being taken and the other left. So it is clearly about the righteous being saved from judgment and destruction, while the wicked perish. The word "taken" (Gk paralambanó) is important, and it can mean either taken or received.

    Since the saints are received by Christ and taken up to Heaven at the Rapture (John 14:1-3), this is the most likely meaning of this verse. That at the Rapture, those who are saved will be taken while those who are unsaved will be left behind. And since the Church is also the Body of Christ, this verse is not connected to dead bodies but to the living Body of Christ. That still leaves us with the correct meaning of eagles, which could metaphorically mean those who trust in God and wait upon Him (Isa 40:31).
     
  10. JesusIsFaithful

    JesusIsFaithful Well-Known Member

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    No. Unbelief does not overcome Christ in you. You can err from the truth and have your faith overthrown, but nevertheless they are still called to depart from iniquity because they still have His seal see that call being given even to them in 2 Timothy 2:18-21. If you note those who depart are the ones purging themselves to be received as vessel unto honor, then those who do not depart from iniquity are still in His House since there are 2 kinds of vessels IN His House ( 2 Timothy 2:20 )

    Paul meant that salvation cannot be lost even for a former believer when he stated as such in verse 13 earlier in 2 Timothy 2:1-13

    But as the prodigal son did give up his first inheritance for wild living, he can never get it back.... but he is still son, testifying to the power of God in salvation for all who believes in Jesus Christ, even in His name. That IS the glory of God and why He will not lose nothing of all the Father has given Him in John 6:39-40 because He is the Overcomer in them as He is faithful BECAUSE He still abides in former believers ( 2 Timothy 2:13 )

    That verse is applicable towards being ready for the Bridegroom when He comes to escape what is coming on the earth like Noah did in regards to the global flood. To be saved from what is coming on this world after the pre great trib rapture is salvation in that respect which is different from eternal salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

    So yes.. if believers do not endure by abiding in Him when He comes, they will be lost; but still as His lost sheep. Note Matthew 18:10-17 for proof as it regards to even the lost sheep that the church excommunicates... He will get that lost sheep because he is His John 10:16.

    So even those saints who deny Him, though He will deny them ( 2 Timothy 2:12 ), He still abides ( 2 Timothy 2:13 ) . So discern that truth, brother.

    By God's grace & His help, I have addressed your verses and explained them for how the verses I have referenced remains true. They all line up.
     
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  11. JesusIsFaithful

    JesusIsFaithful Well-Known Member

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    I am contending for eagles to be correctly translated, but it does seem to leave out the full meaning of that Greek word in what they were being gathered for; celebration.

    And I agree that it cannot be vultures when in context of Jesus's warning, when it was about not being like Lot's wife in not wanting to leave. It goes to show how modern day translators ignore the context of the message, and even ignored the Greek in replacing eagles with vultures.

    However... it seems like what they were being gathered for was left out in translation from the Greek when they were being gathered for celebration and that celebration was not happening on earth when leaving is the only way to escape the destruction coming on them on the earth.
     
  12. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    Excellent.
    ~. ~ 3995_4e436605a015cc8f91d2ccd50472cd06_thumb.jpg
     
  13. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    2Ti 2:18 men who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, and overthrow the faith of some.
    2Ti 2:19 Howbeit the firm foundation of God standeth, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his: and, Let every one that nameth the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.
    You are not rightly dividing the Word. In verse 18, it is their faith in a future resurrection that is overthrown, not their faith in Yeshua. In verse 19, the ones that name the name of the Lord are the ones walking in unrighteousness. They are NOT walking in unbelief in Yeshua which is evident by the fact that they still call upon him.

    2Ti 2:20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some unto honor, and some unto dishonor.
    2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, meet for the master's use, prepared unto every good work. ​

    The possibility of purging oneself from them exists because they still call upon Yeshua.

    2Ti 2:12 if we endure, we shall also reign with him: if we shall deny him, he also will deny us:
    2Ti 2:13 if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for he cannot deny himself.​

    Verse 13 does NOT mean he still abides in former believers. It means Yeshua remains faithful even though the denier does not. Verse 12 makes it perfectly clear that the one who denies Yeshua is lost forever because Yeshua will deny him. The denier no longer belongs to Yeshua.

    John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
    John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    In verse 39, "should" is used because it is not guaranteed. If a believer continues in the faith and abiding in Yeshua, then he should not be lost, but if he renounces Yeshua, then he will be lost.

    John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. ​

    If a man does not continue believing in Yeshua, having him as one's atoning sacrifice, mediator, Saviour, etc., he is good for nothing but the fire.

    All who were not in the ark (a type of Yeshua) were lost.

    Sheep do not go astray because they reject their shepherd. They go astray because they are so fixated on eating that they pay no attention to the fact that they are moving further away from the flock and the shepherd. The good shepherd retrieves them because they strayed accidentally.
     
  14. JesusIsFaithful

    JesusIsFaithful Well-Known Member

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    Are you not one of those self proclaimed sabbath day keepers?

    If not, we agree to disagree, brother. Why? You are straining at the gnat in defending your point of view as if the message of His abiding has nothing to do with those just mentioned earlier as those who believe not. There is no way He abides in unbelievers and so this can only apply to what was earlier written in that same verse of verse 13 in regards to the hypothetical "If we believe not.."

    2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. KJV

    Since Paul gave an example of believers that err from the truth and had their faith overthrown in verse 18, verse 13 applies to them for why Paul started off verse 19 with Nevertheless.....

    2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

    That is why His disciples give constant calling for those who believe and even former believers to depart from iniquity.

    If you are a sabbath day keeper and one of your own was caught breaking the sabbath and was not going to repent, would not your church excommunicate him until he does? It's not like you are going to preach the gospel again when he does repent, right? He already knows the gospel. The church wants him to repent of what he is doing. ( Not that I agree with that church since Jesus said why he is guiltless in Matthew 12:1-7 )

    Anyway.... we agree to disagree.
     
  15. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    Is there a difference between a "self proclaimed" Sabbath keeper and a normal Sabbath keeper? I am a Sabbath keeper who is blessed by YHWH for my obedience to Him.

    There is a tremendous difference between a man who breaks the Sabbath and a man who renounces Yeshua as his Lord and Saviour. There is also a tremendous difference between a man who is put out of the church and a man who willfully leaves the church because he leaves Yeshua.
     
  16. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    The obvious question is...what is the "other faith" that you are espousing?
     
  17. JesusIsFaithful

    JesusIsFaithful Well-Known Member

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    If you give your obedience as the credit to Him; then how come none of you tell believers to look to Him to help them keep the sabbath day?

    That doesn't change Paul's words regarding the spiritual state of the former believer.

    If children that simply believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead are saved as promised, and yet those same children are being molested by the priests and turn from believing in Him because of that betrayal.... whose fault is that? Does evil wins? Does evil overcomes Christ in them? No. It is because Christ is in them, is why YOU can lead them to go to Him for help in seeing the truth and lean on Him to repent. Otherwise, you would be wasting your breath preaching the gospel to those children when they already know it but don't believe in Him because of those priests.

    Same goes for former believers that believe in that false science, the evolution theory, and yet because they know the gospel but not rooted in His words, where does your ministry rest in now?

    Same for christians living in sin. They know the gospel. It is reproving them by the scripture for Him to help them see their need for Him to deliver them from their sins that is on you to do.

    But I say no christian will be judged by breaking the sabbath day because Christ is in us and is with us always for why His righteousness in us is able to make us stand guiltless for profaning the sabbath day. That is part of the Good News to man, brother, and why Jesus is Lord of the sabbath day.
     
  18. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    Since I was thrown out of Christianity for being non-trinitarian and told I was fallen from grace for keeping the Sabbath, I could not list myself as a Christian on this forum. YHWH knows full well that I am a disciple of Messiah Yeshua and that he is my Master and Saviour. If Christians choose to reject me as such even though the Bible teaches no such thing, that is their problem.
     
  19. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    There are some curiously translated verses in the KJV. And this has affected other translations as well.

    The one I'm thinking of at this moment is...

    Gal. 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

    Can a person crucify themselves? A person doesn't even know how or what that is...and which part needs crucifying. It isn't possible to crucify ourselves...just as it isn't possible to stop being a sinner by ourselves.

    The Greek goes more like this...

    "and those of Christ the flesh crucified"

    or...more properly in English...

    "They that are Christ's have had their flesh crucified."

    Who does the crucifying? God does. There is no indication in the verse that it is self crucifying self. That idea has been added in by the translators.
     
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  20. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    You were rejected by one group....but that doesn't change that you are yet a Christian. You should stand up for what you believe...and that is as a follower of Jesus Christ (or Yashua or Iesous).

    Can you remove yourself from fellowship with other believers because you hold one day over another and others don't? Let the others be divisive...not you.

    We are not to be judged...or to judge...if a person holds one day over another.

    Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--

    But also don't judge others who regard every day as the Lord's day.

    In the end the Sabbath is about ceasing from our own works, our own ways, our own thoughts and our own words...

    Is. 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
    From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
    And call the Sabbath a delight,
    The holy day of the Lord honorable,
    And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
    Nor finding your own pleasure,
    Nor speaking your own words,
    14 Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord;
    And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,
    And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.
    The mouth of the Lord has spoken.”
     
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