1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Lazarus and the Rich Man correspondence = hades not eternal

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by AlfredPersson, Jun 24, 2018.

  1. AlfredPersson

    AlfredPersson New Member

    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    24 "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
    25 "But Abraham said,`Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. (Lk. 16:24-25 NKJ)


    “Reversal” is the “cause” of what exists in Hades (Lk. 6:25), a “correlation” governs what the Rich Man receives.


    While alive the Rich Man lived in paradise with plenty to spare yet failed to aid Lazarus at his gate who was in anguish from want and experienced only bad things while alive. To balance the scales, Lazarus now enjoys paradise with plenty to spare but is not permitted to aid the Rich Man in anguish from want in Hades and experiencing only bad things while dead.


    It logically follows therefore, as Lazarus suffered until he died, the Rich Man’s torment ends when he “dies”. As the change that occurs during repentance is figuratively like “dying”, the “old man” is “born again” a “new man” (2Cor. 5:17. Rom. 6:4. Jn 3:3. Eph. 4:24), it follows the Rich Man’s torment ends when he repents.



     
  2. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,872
    Likes Received:
    1,364
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Well he was already dead and in Hades. But the second death is only the beginning of eternal torment in the Lake of Fire. Study the book of Revelation.
     
  3. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,778
    Likes Received:
    2,003
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Some of you like "Fill-In-The Blank" exercises...… (The long link directly below is one.)

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwiXn5Sd1O7bAhUFUKwKHd_EDhwQFggwMAE&url=https://secretsunsealed.org/content/Parables%20of%20Christ/04-ParablesTheRichManAndLazarus.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1T8KG6VdSRI1zm_zxeMgM9

    This is also interesting: PARABLE OF THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS.

    ("The great difficulty with many in reading this scripture is that, though they regard it as a parable, they reason on it and draw conclusions from it as though it were a literal statement. To regard it as a literal statement involves several absurdities; for instance, that the rich man went to "hell" because he had enjoyed many earthly blessings and gave nothing but crumbs to Lazarus. Not a word is said about his wickedness. Again, Lazarus was blessed, not because he was a sincere child of God, full of faith and trust, not because he was good, but simply because he was poor and sick. If this be interpreted literally, the only logical lesson to be drawn from it is, that unless we are poor beggars full of sores, we will never enter into future bliss; and that if now we wear any fine linen and purple, and have plenty to eat every day, (as do most Americans) we are sure of future torment. Again, the coveted place of favor is "Abraham's bosom"; and if the whole statement be literal, the bosom must also be literal, and it surely would not hold very many of earth's millions of sick and poor.
    But why consider absurdities?...………. )
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
    brakelite, Nancy, Truth and 1 other person like this.
  4. larry2

    larry2 Active Member

    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    155
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Wow Brother Willy T, there’s sure a lot of “Ifs” presented. I reckon I didn’t read as closely as I might of concerning the great Josephus, but overall there seems to be a dim light shown on scripture.

    They talk of parables; are they types of occurrences to come, that are, or have been?
    Let me present scripture that has satisfied me concerning the resting place suggested by Abraham’s bosom.

    Luk 23:43 Jesus talking to the thief beside Him on the cross: “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Where was paradise?

    Eph 4:9 talking of Jesus rising to our Father after His death says: “(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?” Can we assume that means that Jesus and the thief both went into the earth when they died instead of straight to heaven?

    In fact, before Jesus died for mankind, none but Him had ever been in heaven? Joh 3:13 “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

    Next we see what Jesus was doing in those lower parts of the earth. Eph 4:8 “Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive . .”

    1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    Last but not least is the fact that the Apostle Paul was caught up into the third heaven in 2Co 12:2.
    “ I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.”
    2Co 12:4 “How that he was caught up into paradise . .” How’d it get into a place in the third heaven if it was in the lower parts of the earth?

    Just my thoughts. :)
     
  5. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,778
    Likes Received:
    2,003
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    As long as you are satisfied with what you have read, then we both remain happy. But, from the first time I read that parable, it bothered me that one man was condemned for being rich (especially since Abraham, himself, was rich), and the other man was rewarded for being a beggar.
     
    Nancy, "ByGrace" and larry2 like this.
  6. JesusIsFaithful

    JesusIsFaithful Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,765
    Likes Received:
    428
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I believe the actions or lack thereof, of the rich man was given.

    Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
    20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

    I doubt there is some beggar at your gate, waiting for crumbs from your table while your dogs are licking his wounds. That has to be a man with a very cold sinful heart to ignore such a beggar. I doubt you have anything to be bothered about.

    I doubt Abraham did anything like that rich man in the parable that Jesus has given.
     
  7. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,778
    Likes Received:
    2,003
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Pure assumptions on your part.... that is one of the things that keep getting people into trouble. And I do believe Abraham lied to save his own skin, putting another man in danger of seriously sinning with his wife.... not once, but twice... with different men. We really do need to read the Bible for ONLY what it says.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
    "ByGrace" likes this.
  8. JesusIsFaithful

    JesusIsFaithful Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,765
    Likes Received:
    428
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Then read how the laws of Israel came way after Abraham since he had married his sister, whom was the daughter of his father's wife, which was not sinful since the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve had no one else to marry except kin.

    That situation wherein Abraham lied to save his own life for the time he and his wife were in that area, is hardly the same situation wherein a rich man was ignoring the plight of the beggar at the gate daily.

    You had initially commented on the riches of Abraham's being the problem when it was the way the rich man ignored the beggar that was the problem.

    Abraham's righteousness was by believing in Him; and not by works as Paul testified in Romans 4th chapter. So read that.

    So if good works did not please God but by believing in Him, then whatever contentions you have about Abraham "lying" about his wife being his sister... long before the laws of Israel had come.....is moot since all have sinned anyway in regards to the man that Abraham had "lied" to.
     
  9. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,179
    Likes Received:
    904
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    larry: Hello and welcome..

    You said, ”In fact, before Jesus died for mankind, none but Him had ever been in heaven? Joh 3:13 “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” (KJV)

    John 3:13 says that Jesus was never in heaven before his ascension.

    It says the no man has ascended to heaven; that includes Jesus.

    It says, Jesus was born of God =: ‘he (Jesus) came down from heaven (born of God)’

    And Jesus on earth is also in contact with his Father in heaven through his spirit =: the Son of man which is in heaven. (Of course Jesus was not literally in heaven)

    The local idiom ‘came down from heaven,’ and others like this one meant: Anyone that came from heaven was either God or an angel. Anything that came down from heaven originated from God; like the manna for the people in the wilderness...like the birth of Jesus..like John the Baptist..his mission came from heaven, from God.

    No Judean would have known of an incarnate Jesus and Jesus never taught this man-made doctrine that he was an incarnate of God, because he was never one. He was never God Almighty or a god before his birth.


    Bless you,

    APAK
     
  10. larry2

    larry2 Active Member

    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    155
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Hi Brother APAK & thanks for your reply. I reckon I'm reading it different.

    Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, BUT (Except, or other than.) He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    To me Jesus was in heaven as God before time, equal with God (Php 2:6), and to come to die for us, He made Himself of no reputation in Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    God bless you in Jesus' name.
     
    Philip James, "ByGrace" and Willie T like this.
  11. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,872
    Likes Received:
    1,364
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    You continue to persist in your erroneous belief about the deity of Christ. You say "No Judean would have known of an incarnate Jesus". Do you know that the Jewish rabbis had already concluded that their Messiah would be Divine-Human, God-Man? That He would be called "the Son of Man" but He would also be "the Son of God", equal to God?

     
  12. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,179
    Likes Received:
    904
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Not interested in debating here Larry, just adding more information and feedback where you might want to review what I've said, at your leisure. You might be surprised with a sincere review.

    Yes, you are reading into it differently and creatively.

    No, I'm afraid there is no 'but' there in the verse at all, that would separate Jesus as not being a man speaking 'but' a god that actually came from heaven. Yes, you can also speculate and guess he actually came down from heaven although the local idiom and its usage as I pointed out would make this reasoning illogical and chaotic.

    Phil 2: 6-8....
    Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
    but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
    Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

    Verse 6 speaks of Jesus as in the outer appearance of his Father. Not his nature as many want to believe. The word 'form' is from the Greek 'morphe.' outer shape not inner shape or nature. This is a critical error made by Jesus is God Almighty folks that force scripture to fit a a reality that is not there. More, Josephus, a contemporary of the Apostles, used 'morphe' to describe the shape of statues (Bauer’s Lexicon).

    More...in the Gospel of Mark there is reference to the well-known story in Luke 24:13-33 about Jesus appearing to the two men on the road to Emmaus. Mark tells us that Jesus appeared “in a different form (morphe)” to these two men so that they did not recognize him (16:12). Jesus did not have a different 'nature' when he appeared to the two disciples. He had a different outward appearance.

    More...The Jews translating the Septuagint used 'morphe' several times, and it always referred to the outward appearance.

    More....The Bible speaks of evil men who have a “form” (morphosis) of godliness (2 Tim. 3:5). Their inner nature was evil, but they had an outward appearance of being godly. and there is much more....

    Christ was fully human and had the outward form morphe, of a human. However, because Jesus always did the Father’s will and demonstrated godly/holy behavior and obedience, he therefore had the outward “appearance” or morphe, of God.

    Verse 7 says....It is not speaking either of Christ’s giving up his “Godhood” at his incarnation or of his God-nature being willing to “hide” so that his man-nature can show itself clearly.

    Scripture says Christ was the “image of God” (2 Cor. 4:4), and Jesus himself testified that if one had seen him, he had seen the Father. Saying that Christ was in the “form” (outward appearance) of God is simply stating that truth in another way. Unlike Adam, who grasped at being like God (Gen. 3:5), Christ, the Last Adam, “emptied himself” of all his reputation and the things due him as the true child of the King.

    Jesus trusted God and became obedient, even to an awful and bloody death on a cross.

    Paul wrote a rebuke to the believers in the Philippians assembly that their attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus” (2:5). He then went on to show how Christ did not grasp at equality with God, but was completely humble, and as a result God 'highly exalted him.'

    Paul was never saying that Jesus could have taken full credit as God Almighty but chosen to be just a humble man. That would be a stretch in reality of epic proportions. And yes many folks live in this elusive reality.

    Bless you,

    APAK
     
  13. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,179
    Likes Received:
    904
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Enoch: Are you placing your faith basis in Christ now on a liberal Berkeley CA writer Daniel Boyarin, that does not even recognize the/your 3rd person HS in his 10 year old controversial book. As you know I trust the word of God as and the spirit of God as my basis.

    Bless you,

    APAK
     
  14. larry2

    larry2 Active Member

    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    155
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I had no idea where you were coming from as to Jesus not being Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Mat 1:23.
    I would appreciate knowing what manner of church you attend, as the only group I've ever run into with such beliefs are Jehovah Witnesses.

    You say that the word "BUT" is not in Joh 3:13, but every one in Bible Hub interpreted it as being there, or as some interpreted it as "EXCEPT." And no man hath ascended up to heaven, BUT (Except, or other than.) He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    It is even said in Mt 3:3 of John the Baptist in Mat 3:3, For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
    How did Elijah say that in Isa 40:3? Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

    Thanks.
     
  15. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,619
    Likes Received:
    2,472
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    "Eph 4:9 talking of Jesus rising to our Father after His death says: “(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?” Can we assume that means that Jesus and the thief both went into the earth when they died instead of straight to heaven?" Jesus (God) is omnipresent?
    “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.”
    2Co 12:4 “How that he was caught up into paradise . .” How’d it get into a place in the third heaven if it was in the lower parts of the earth?

    This is a little excerpt from an article from: What is the third Heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4? - Bible Believers Baptist Church, Corpus Christi, Texas "
    The third heaven is also called “paradise” in 2 Cor 12:4. However, paradise had been in the heart of the earth until the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ.
    • In Lk 23:43, Jesus told the thief, “This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
    • Yet, in Eph 4:9 Jesus descended first into the lower parts of the earth for three days and three nights (Matt 12:40).
    • Therefore, paradise was in Abraham’s Bosom (Lk 16:22) until the resurrection of Jesus, at which time Jesus took the souls of the Old Testament saints with him and moved paradise to the third heaven.Hope this helps,
    Pastor Bevans Welder



     
    larry2 likes this.
  16. Jun2u

    Jun2u Active Member

    Messages:
    752
    Likes Received:
    187
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The story of Lazarus and the Rich man is a parable. A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly/spiritual meaning.

    That means:

    1) Abraham is a figure or type of God the Father.
    2) Lazarus is a figure or type of all believers who are poor in spirits (Matthew 5:3).
    3) The rich man is a figure or type of all the unsaved (Matthew 19:23-24; Mark 10:25-27).
    4) At the cross, Jesus said: “Father into thy hands I commit my spirit” and told the thief, “today thou shalt be with me in paradise.” (Revelation 2:7, see also, 2 Corinthians 5:8).

    You stated above that you’re not interested in debating yet you bring in Scriptures that do not pertain to the OP. Reading from your posts in other threads I know where you are coming from. You do NOT believe in the Deity of Christ which is a heresy according to the Bible.

    Borrowing from what you’ve uttered: “you might want to review what I’ve said at your leisure. You might be surprised with a sincere review” consider the following Scriptures:

    Titus 2:13-15
    13) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
    14) Who gave himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
    15) These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke, with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

    Hebrews 1:8
    “But unto the Son he (Father) saith, Thy throne O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.”

    There are many more Scriptures I could offer to argue for the Deity of Christ, but this is not the correct forum.

    To God Be The Glory
     
    Mayflower and larry2 like this.
  17. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,179
    Likes Received:
    904
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    So you really think Jesus already was in heaven before his ascension? You are weighing your interpretation and stating it as a fact based on one poorly explained verse, where internet writers agree with you. Quite gutsy. I would look at scripture in a larger context before I would stake this claim.

    Larry can you explain to me what Emmanuel means in light of Jesus and God without just stating the term and without revealing your comprehension. Usually I have to protract meanings of verses and terms for everyone else.



    Thanks.
     
  18. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,179
    Likes Received:
    904
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Well before you get too excited, Titus 2:13-15 has nothing to do with any deity of Christ and nor does Hebrews 1:8.

    Find another verse of your choosing. I've played this game for for years. And I know I will have to do all the interpretaion becaause you have none.


    Bless you,

    APAK
     
  19. larry2

    larry2 Active Member

    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    155
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Good morning, the word Emmanuel of itself is proclaimed to be a name of Christ in Strongs’s concordance.

    Hebrew 6005 Immanuel = "God with us" or "with us is God"
    A. symbolic and prophetic name of the Messiah, the Christ, prophesying that He would be born of a virgin and would be 'God with us'.

    Greek 1694 Emmanuel = "God with us"
    A. the title applied to the Messiah, born of the virgin, Mt 1:23, Is. 7:14, because Jesus was God united with man, and showed that God was dwelling with man.

    Hebrew 4899 Messiah
    anointed, anointed one
    A. of the Messiah, Messianic prince
    B. of the king of Israel
    C. of the high priest of Israel
    D. of Cyrus
    E. of the patriarchs as anointed kings

    Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD (Jehovah); and beside me there is no saviour.

    Isa 43:15 I am the LORD (Jehovah), your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King. (Messiah?)

    There are many references to Jesus being Saviour and Redeemer.

    Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
    (I see that you have already disclaimed this scripture as having nothing to do with Jesus' diety)

    Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew Him not.
    Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and His own received him not.

    Col 1:16 For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him:
    Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
    Col 1:18 And He (Jesus) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    This is the way I read it without protracted reasoning. :)
     
    "ByGrace" likes this.
  20. Jun2u

    Jun2u Active Member

    Messages:
    752
    Likes Received:
    187
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The story of Lazarus and the Rich man is a parable. A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly/spiritual meaning.

    That means:

    1) Abraham is a figure or type of God the Father.
    2) Lazarus is a figure or type of all believers who are poor in spirits (Matthew 5:3).
    3) The rich man is a figure or type of all the unsaved (Matthew 19:23-24; Mark 10:25-27).
    4) At the cross, Jesus said: “Father into thy hands I commit my spirit” and told the thief, “today thou shalt be with me in paradise.” (Revelation 2:7, see also, 2 Corinthians 5:8).

    You stated above that you’re not interested in debating yet you bring in Scriptures that do not pertain to the OP. Reading from your posts in other threads I know where you are coming from. You do NOT believe in the Deity of Christ which is a heresy according to the Bible.

    Borrowing from what you’ve uttered above, “you might want to review what I’ve said at your leisure. You might be surprised with a sincere review” consider the following Scriptures:

    Titus 2:13
    13) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
    14) Who gave himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
    15) These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke, with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

    Hebrews 1:8
    “But unto the Son he (Father) saith, Thy throne O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.”

    There are many more Scriptures I could offer to argue for the Deity of Christ, but this is just a sample and is not the correct forum.

    To God Be The Glory
     
    Mayflower likes this.
Loading...