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Lazarus And The Rich Man Is Speaking You Go To Heaven Upon Death

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Vickie, Jul 5, 2009.

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  1. Jul 5, 2009 #1
    Vickie

    Vickie New Member

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    Luke 16:19 There was a rick man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.Romans 9:4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the Sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; Exod 28:5 And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen. All these items are associated with houses of Israel and Judah, used as identifying symbols through out the bible with them and the Saints. Luke 16:20 at his gate was laid a beggar name Lazarus, covered with sores and long to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Matthew 15:24 He answered , I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. (25) The woman came and knelt down before him, “Lord help me!” she said. (26) He said It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs. (27) Yes, Lord, she said but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their Master’s tableMatthew establishes Gentiles could only gleam the crumbs off of the table of the Lord from the Jewish who were rich in splendor, food, clothes, etc.confirming that Lazarus was Gentile and ate the crumbs off the "RICH MAN'S TABLE" which is the Houses of Israel and Judah.Luke 16:22 The time came the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. Luke 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great CHASM is fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us. Verses 22-26 describe the two places, one being Abraham's bosom which is where Abraham lies today waiting for the resurrection. Hebrews 11:13 for Abraham and all the patriarchs all died without receiving the promise of eternal life YET. Their hope as with us is to be raised up at the 7th trumpet and the voice of the arch angel on the Day the Lord comes. The Gulf or Chasm is separation or dividing of souls upon death that will be brought up at the resurrection when Christ comes, some to everlasting life, others to condemnation as John 5:28-29 where Jesus himself said would happen at his coming. This Gulf separates where the two souls go. This is the Lord's doing and it can not be undone for it is fixed just as verse 26 says. Luke 16:27 He answered, "Then I beg you, Father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28.) for I have Five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.Luke 16:29 Abraham replied, 'They have MOSES AND THE PROPHETS; LET THEM LISTEN TO THEM. Verse 29 clarifies the rich man is of the House of Judah, for his is told by Abraham his FIVE BROTHERS have Moses and the PROPHETS. Judah has five brothers in the genealogy written. There actions of harsh treatment of the Gentiles is a factor here of God's distaste for them, and their refusal of Christ which places by faith those into Abraham's bosom was taken from the rich man and given to the Gentiles. Because we know we Gentiles have been grafted in. The tribe of Judah had caused the Gentiles to be out cast, beggars and they treated them like dogs. Their reward is Hades, a strict warning to all of us Gentiles that have been grafted in is what this is referencing and the outcome to those who disobey the words of God that have entered into a covenant with the Lord. Go on to Chapter 17 and the conversation to the disciples is continues with Jesus saying to the Disciples, these things that cause people to sin are bound to come, just like it did with Judah and Israel, and WHOA to THEM who do them, and cause others to sin. This in Lazarus is a warning to us as well as those under God's Mosaic Covenant. If you see your brother treating others like dogs and unmercifully, tell them to stop, for all are God's little children, the whole earth is and we as God's reprensatives have a responsiblity to the entire world as did Israel, who became self righteous and proud and considered them selves gods to everyone around them. The Judge is coming.For give those that sin against you 70 x's 7 and love one another for this is the law and pray that you strive to walk upright in it that you go to the side of Abraham's bosom. The Rich Man requested some one go and tell his brothers to save them from this loss of ETERNAL LIFE, for the covenant they entered into under Moses they had broken and treated the Gentiles badly, putting themselves above all the people around them. God has not totally forsaken all of Israel, for God says in Isaiah 37:31 Once more a REMNANT of the house of JUDAH will TAKE ROOT below here on the earth and bear fruit above, For out of Jerusalem will come a remnant, and out of Mt. Zion a band of SURVIVORS. These God will make as the sands of the sea during the Millennium. The rich man and Lazarus is a stern warning to those who have entered into the Covenant with God Almighty who is coming to judge what we have done, who have been given the keys to the kingdom of God and have brought forth bad fruits or good, for when we die we go to one side of the Gulf to wait for the King's coming to be raise up, either into eternal life, or eternal condemnation.
     
  2. Jul 5, 2009 #2
    BenTobijah

    BenTobijah New Member

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    Vickie,I don’t have any idea where you get your theology, certainly not from the same Bible I use. Your take on Lazarus And The Rich Man couldn’t be farther from the truth. Lazerus is a Hebrew name for crying out loud. But the whole story isn’t worth discussing with you because you wouldn’t understand and believe what I said any way. (sorry for the bigger type, I can't read the smaller print [​IMG] getting old)
     
  3. Jul 5, 2009 #3
    Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Sorry I didnt have time to get into this earlier VickieNo offense but I seriously do not even get where you have gotten this idea in your post? There is no rhyme or reason to the conclusions that I can make logical sense of ....No wonder you did not understand me in the other thread when I referred to Lazarus .... The angels of God didn't carry him to the grave they carried him to heaven ...You are not seeing whats being said correctly .... Angels do not carry one into the grave there is no presedence for this its a wrong speculation and conclusion based in nothing. TO BE ABENT FROM THE BODY (flesh) IS TO BE PRESENT WITH THE LORD(in heaven or hades) but there is a gulf between them that can not be crossed. Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. I do not know how much clearer God make it to anyone regardless of what one wants to believe God has made an statement period the End ...flesh returns to dust from which it came /spirit(soul) returns to God from which it came ...End of confusion. Luke 16:19 "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:"This parable to tell us what heaven and hell is actually like. This rich man in the parable had all the wealth that he needed, Purple is also the color of Royalty 16:20 "And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,"Lazarus was sitting daily at the beggars gate, seeking enough money to buy food to eat. He had nothing, and his body was full of sores from wrong diet, and the beggars life.Luke 16:21 "And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: more over the dogs came and licked his sores."This verse is telling us that this man was treated worse than the dogs, for even the dogs get fed by their masters. This rich man had showed no compassion to this poor man in life, as they lived here in the flesh. Even the dogs showed more compassion for Lazarus than that rich man, for they came and licked the sores of Lazarus. Luke 16:22 "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom the rich man also died, and was buried;"Lazarus was carried into heaven by the angels of God, while the rich man's body was buried in the ground and his soul went to Hades, the holding place before being destroyed by hell fire.Luke 16:23 "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."This is a parable about two men that actually lived, and when both died, the rich man could see Lazarus in heaven with Abraham. He could look across that great gulf that stood between them, but could not go there. Our Heavenly Father is the Father of the living and not the dead. Thus to be absent from this physical body of the flesh is to be present with the Lord. The soul does not go to the grave as the flesh does, but goes immediate to heaven. All souls can actually see the throne of God from where they are. Those that are on the rich man's side are being held for that great judgment day.Luke 16:25 "But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivest thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."Luke 16:26 "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.' "there is a great gulf fixed." That gulf is so fixed that even though one side can see the other side, there is no way to pass between. Luke is making it entirey clear that you set your course in this life of the flesh, and when your soul passes into the next life, there is no changing what you have done in this life. Luke 16:27 "Then he said, `I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:"This is the rich man speaking to Abraham, asking him to send Lazarus back to earth, to witness to his brothers, father and mother.Luke 16:28 "For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' " Notice whom is speaking here This rich man is saying that if you will not help me, then at least help my five brothers. I don't want them to end up like I am. The torment is not from a fire, but from shame and disgrace. a failure and bound for hell fire.Luke 16:29 "Abraham saith unto him, `They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' "Abraham is telling this rich man that your brothers have the Word of God from the prophets, let them listen to them. That is all they are going to get. that's all any of us get we have the Words of God and the prophets ... rather or not one listens will determine their fate ...So I repeat and pray you listen Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. [/b]
     
  4. Jul 15, 2009 #4
    CRUSHSECRET

    CRUSHSECRET New Member

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    WOW really really wrong,,,maybe you should go back a read it again after reading the replys people left and see if you get a better understanding.........
     
  5. Jul 17, 2009 #5
    Vickie

    Vickie New Member

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    It is a parable. The meaning is hidden except you find the verses that speak of those things the verses express. Then you have the truth of what God has spoken. The promises have not been fulfilled that anyone may ascend into heaven. Heb 11:39. The breath in man comes from God and that is the spirit that goes back to God who gave it. Dan 12:2 all will come out of their sleep raised up at the resurrection. We, just like Jesus says in John 5:29 are in the grave and must be raised up at his coming. No where does the bible say that Chris brings down those who died with him, but rather the armies of heaven that dwell with him and are God's army. Rev 14:1-5 says the 144000 are those who get resurrected and have been changed for there is no lie in them. I am not here to change your belief, if you believe you go to heaven, then so be it. the bible does not speak that. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord is not speaking of going to heaven when you die. It goes against the resurrection that is spoken of about. Paul simple meant that when your in the flesh, thinking of the carnal things, you are not in the spirit, because when you are in the Spirit you are with the Lord in your actions, no longer being carnal in thinking and actions. What our walk is to be.
     
  6. Jul 17, 2009 #6
    n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    What would you have us do with these verses...Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."These people are clearly in HeavenEcclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place. Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ is heaven, not at some distant time in the future.The body returns to the dirt that it is made of, and the soul departs from that body never to return to it.God creates the flesh body for your soul to occupy, and He places your spirit within your soul. That is what gives your soul its identity. Then just as God gave it for a brief time, He will take your soul back to Himself, when the flesh body stops having life.
    Paul knew that upon death we go back to the Lord. But, as you see, our flesh body does not travel with us; it remains here to rot in the grave. But we are not in that grave with our rotting flesh―God forbid―rather, we are in Heaven with the Lord (Heaven is wherever God is; it is His abode):2 Corinthians 5:6-21 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. KJV In the above, Paul is giving an either/or. In other words, you are in only one of two places; you are either here in the flesh (living on the Earth in your flesh body), or you are with God (in your spiritual body) after your flesh deceases. There is no third place. You are either here or there, and that goes for the wicked and for the good―we ALL go back to God the Father after we die down here.
     
  7. Jul 17, 2009 #7
    CRUSHSECRET

    CRUSHSECRET New Member

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    How long have you been studying,,,,because it seems you overlook alot of things,,,,,you said::::No where does the bible say that Chris brings down those who died with him,O yeah you sure about that?????1 Thess 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.SO as you can see Christ is bringing people back with him,,,and guess what???You can bring people back unless there with you,,,people are not in graves,,,time to sharpen up... Ecclesiastes 12:6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. How hard is this to understand???When man dies is body goes to dust and his spirit goes to God....Where is God???answer: God is in Heaven not in some freakin hole in the ground.....What about this????Luke 23:42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Where is paradise???answer: Paradise is Heaven ,,,,,So Christ told the thief he would see him in heaven,,,,,Christ did not say "I will see you 6 feet under" because as soon as the thief dies his body is going to do this ::7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. what about this???????22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. SO good or bad when you die your body goes to dust and yourself spirit/soul returns to the father who gave it,,,,do you not understand this simple parable of Christ??? How will you ever understand the meat of the word when you cant understand this???What about this???To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,,,its that simple so leave it at that why are you trying to flip it and twist it to put people in graves????It sound like you have mixed in those late night zombie movies with your doctrine arrrr
     
  8. Jul 17, 2009 #8
    Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Vickie please understand we are trying to argue for the sake of arguing but because we are trying to help you understand you are way off base here ...Its not about us trying to prove we are right but an attempt to show you what God is saying which I know is your hearts desire ....
     
  9. Jul 17, 2009 #9
    CRUSHSECRET

    CRUSHSECRET New Member

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    Dying and having your spirit/soul go back to the father is one of the best things about Christianity.....Why take the comfort that God gave us??? in knowing,,,that when our loved ones die they can see other loved ones.......That is a great gift to be with the Father and done with this age so to speak......There is no comfort in a person lying in the ground rotting away only to be awakened back into the old jacked up body......
     
  10. Jul 17, 2009 #10
    Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    I agree with that NIGHTMARE. :)And Vickie, scripture does speak for itself... It is clear as water when we don't put our imagination in the middle of it... They are right... because God did really say that All souls will go back to the person who gave it... which is God. (Ecclesiastes 12:7, II Corinthians 5:8)
     
  11. Jul 18, 2009 #11
    Polar

    Polar New Member

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    I have to go with Jordan and NIGHTMARE on this one.Sometimes what the scripture says is exactly what it means. Perhaps a deeper meaning when searched further, but the message itself is obvious.
     
  12. Jul 19, 2009 #12
    Vickie

    Vickie New Member

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    Well the spirit came from God and it goes back to God. To say the spirit he gave us created beings so that life comes into us, that this is us going to heaven upon death, goes against us being asleep in the ground waiting for the resurrection. The hardest thing for most people is understanding what the spirit is that God has given to us the bible speaks so much about. This is God's spirit he gave it to each person created, not speaking of the Holy Spirit, but the breathe of life spirit from God.The breath goes back to God and is given back to us to come up out of the grave at his coming. This is why we live and why we died, we are nothing without the breath that God gives us which is translated also as spirit, the breath. Ecc. 12:7 "The Dust" which is us goes back to the ground, from where it came. We were created out of the dust and and we go back to it. When we are called up at the Last trumpet we are given the breath again to be alive. This is why we are told we "SLEEP in The DUST of the earth" Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the "DUST OF THE EARTH" will be given the spirit again that brings us back to life. The earth is the alter, where those who are all of who are dead and belong to Christ are waiting. If you think about it, why are they waiting under the Altar and not said to be waiting in Heaven? Waiting for what? They are waiting for the resurrection which is close to happening as that chapter depicts that event in those details of Christ coming. When you've been taught we go to heaven, using some bible verses that are used for this, it is hard to see what the other verses say very clear in this matter. It would make our Lord a respecter of persons if we went to heaven and Israel, stays asleep in the ground. Hebrews 11:13,39 verse 39 says we, nor Israel, can be made perfect, be given eternal life until we all do it together. Only together with them will we all be made perfect. See, God had the Hebrew writer make this clear for the teaching of going to heaven is a false teaching. Please don't think I am putting you down when I say that, when men teach us that this verse means your going to heaven, it should be clear and not something like "under the Altar" for that is not a clear passage, and one must understand from other verses what the Altar means. In the bible the word altar has been used with earth as the altar. Never is heaven been used as the altar in the bible that I am aware of. Though still you have to go back to we have been grafted in to the "SAME PROMISE" as Israel, we are not treated better than them or they better then us, though they are first and they will not receive eternal life without us, nor us with out them. That is God not being a respecter of persons and keeping to the promise of all of us together being raised and given eternal life. thanks Vickie
     
  13. Jul 19, 2009 #13
    Vickie

    Vickie New Member

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    Hi Christina, I am not offended in the least. God said there are many parts of the body, but one body. You are my sister in Christ and I am yours. There will always be differences, but the same God and Lord. Jesus said himself, in John 5:28-29 Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their GRAVES will HEAR HIS VOICE and COME OUT.John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation Now, Jesus saying those who have done GOOD, means all who are SAVED, how then can the SAVED be in Heaven if they have to rise at the call of the KINGS voice? And Jesus or the Father will not let anyone into heaven if they have not faced the judgment. We are all to stand before the King for this judgment coming. One will go to the right if they have done good, right? The Judgment has to come. No one qualifies to be in the presence of the King living with him until after Judgment which does not happen until He comes. Being in heaven would go against God's words he speaks, the promise he gave to Israel and those grafted in, us , the Christians. Plus God is bring the New Jerusalem down to earth which is to always be inhabited Isa.45:18 Hebrews 11:39 says they will be made perfect with us. Then only will they, Israel be given eternal life with us which is being made perfect in heart and spirit and the promise of eternal life. If God gave anyone the right to go to eternal life before the Israelites he would be a respecter of persons. The promise was to Israel first and then to us. neither of us get the perfection without the other. IN Christ's precious name
     
  14. Jul 19, 2009 #14
    Christina

    Christina New Member

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    well I guess you will have to believe what you believe sis but you are wrong 43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.You are baseing your entire belief on one verse that could easily have a spiritual meaning or differt than you are taking itin doing so you are denying a dozen verse's that say differnt ... When you have this occur the only logical explanation is that you are misinterpting the one verse ..And the weight of the evidence to the contrary being repeated in so many ways must take presedence other wise you deny God Words repeatly ...for ones own understanding of one verse. You have no basis to call Lazurs story a parable ...It doesnt even meet the qualifacations of a parable, One can not call something a parable to deny it an other verses just to hang on to ones own interptation of another So all in all.... you are left with one verse you see one way ..while denying the many
     
  15. Jul 19, 2009 #15
    Vickie

    Vickie New Member

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    The statement from Jesus speaking they would be in paradise that day is not referring to heaven. Have you read Jesus had to go to the earth for 3 days and three nights? This word Paradise has been taken out of context, The prophecy of Jesus was that he would die for the sins of the world, go to the ground for 3 days and nights. Here is a verse that states Jesus was in the ground UPON HIS DEATH and NOT IN HEAVEN. How would you receive this verse below?Matthew 12:40 Jesus says: For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a whale, so the Son of MAN will be "THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH."With Jesus saying he would be in the heart of the earth, which was called paradise in the statement with the Thief, it becomes clear the word "PARADISE" IS THE DESCRIPTION OF THE SLEEP JESUS AND THE THIEF WOULD BE ENJOYING, only the thief would remain in the ground till the resurrection takes place where the Lord was resurrected from the dead as prophesied to take place. John 5:28-29 says will happen to "ALL PEOPLE" .As many teachers use I Thess 4:15 to show we are all changed. Verse 16 shows the truth of those who are in Christ where they went upon their death, look what Paul says: I Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from Heaven, with the loud command, the voice of the archangel, (which John 5:28 declares to us) and with the trumpet call of God. "The DEAD IN CHRIST" WILL RISE FIRST. (The dead "IN" Christ, are in the earth, waiting to RISE UP. The dead in Christ are who? All those who have believed in Christ that have died. This confirms they are dead in the ground waiting for the voice to raise them up, all the masses of Christians that have believed in Christ, plus the Israelites. If Christians were in heaven, God would have said plainly so, but instead teachers who took the pulpit preached not the resurrection of the dead, but only a trip to heaven upon believing in Christ. These verses tell us, the dead in Christ, who are the Christians are raised from the Ground with the voice that calls every dead Jew and Christian up out of the ground at HIS COMING> And then God breathes life of the spirit back into us. The spirit belongs to god who gives it Ecc 12:7. Ezek 37:13-14 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I OPEN YOUR GRAVES AND BRING YOU UP FROM THEM. I will PUT MY SPIRIT IN YOU AND YOU WILL LIVE. And in keeping with the promise we are all made perfect together with Israel Heb 11:39, and God not being a respecter of persons. The spirit that goes back to God is the spirit that God gave, which is the breath we are given that brings us life. When it is removed we sleep in the dust just as Daniel 12:1-2 says we do, and John 5:28-29 and Isa 26:19 with other verses through out the bible. You have multiply verses speaking all the same event taking place and confirming the dead in "CHRIST" are raised up out of their sleep, we have not ever been in heaven. This is solid and the verses are clear, like I have said to you and others, these verses give me the clear truth of were the dead go, Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Here it is in Luke those who are accounted as worthy to be given eternal life and be resurrected from the dead, will neither marry or be given in marriage. Keeping in the true gospel of all who are in Christ will be raised from their sleep at his coming.1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Here we are told again the dead will be raised up at the trumpet sound, this is the promise to all the dead in Christ. Can you see it?Ps 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. It is not my desire to cause affliction, nor can I be persuaded to sway from these verses that speak clear the dead sleep and wait for the Coming of Christ to be resurrected. As Jesus was crucified and placed into the ground for three days and three nights and brought back to life, so shall all who have died in Christ be brought back to life at his command of the voice of the Arch angel which is soon coming. If you can not agree with these verses, who am I to try and force you or anyone? It is not my place, God's words belong to HIM alone. Christ has given us many verses in both old and new testament speaking the same message, leaving no room for miss understanding of the dead and the hope we are given through him being the first resurrected among many brethren. My precious sister, there is many places that speak of this resurrection of the Christians, all those who have died in the Lord will be called up at his coming. This is the true hope for all of us. This is hard for anyone to grasp when having been taught you go to heaven. It is not my desire to stir up dissension or hard ships to others in God's word. These verses are exactly what they say and it will be. God has confirmed in these verses that all those who die in Christ are resurrected at his coming. Just as Jesus said in John 3:13 "NO MAN HAS ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN" Except the SON OF MAN, who came from heaven. Unless you have been from Heaven you can not go there. Jesus came from heaven and was able to return there. This is why we know that Lazarus and the rich man is a parable. Though doctrinal teachers of heaven have used it as Literal, making it go against the entire promise of what God speaks about the resurrection and the dead in Christ.Thank you for showing your concern for my belief in the resurrection, your caring and loving manner of a real sister. I appreciate that from you very much. Knowledge puffs up and I don't want to be puffed up in what I understand, but I am steadfast in these verses and they speak no man has gone to heaven and are waiting for the resurrection at the Coming of Christ to be judged and receive their reward of eternal life here on earth in the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven for ever to dwell among all men. Praise be to our Lord and his great powers. Your sister in Christ whom we all serve.
     
  16. Jul 19, 2009 #16
    Christina

    Christina New Member

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    This so far away from scripture I dont even know how to reply without being rude,,, I have seldom heard such a twisting of scripture and self interpretation that has no basis in fact no basis in the Word .. I can see you are much more interested in hanging on to your own ideas than hearing your fathers words. This is a sad thing you have based none of this on scripture but your imaginations. Jesus taught in parables yet you have decided ...the apostles did to ..where are you told this?? ...You have just randomly made a conclusion and then haphazardly applied what ever verses you feel like to prove a point you have no basis to make in the first place. This is so far from Biblical I can only warn new students not to listen to one word of what you have said and I am truly sorry if you are offended but this is not the Word of God. When Jesus ascended to heaven, He took believers with Him (Ephesians 4:8-10). The lost side of sheol/hades has remained unchanged. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes, according to Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20.This is what he was doing not sleeping with the thief ... For you to say different is call the Word of God a lie. I mean nothing personal here ..but to endorse such a mockery by my silence is something I can not do in good conscience You will ignore all this and all everyone else has tried to show you ..You alone decide he was asleep with a thief ??? This is not a difference of beliefs you are just plain making a mockery of Gods word with your imaginations. I again apologize for my bluntness here..... But I make no apology for defending God Words ..even if it offends one personally. I think you are a nice lady and I take no pleasure in saying these thingsI can beg you to reconsider but we have already done so to no avail ..We have all tried to debate scripture with scipture to no avail ... You have left me no where to go but to call this for what it is a preversion of the Word of God ...
     
  17. Jul 19, 2009 #17
    Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Vickie, I love you, but Gods warns us against thisProverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.Proverbs 3:7 - Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.Isaiah 55:8 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.Isaiah 55:9 - For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.You are leaning onto you own understanding and this is where God clearly told us not to do it. God's Words is above ALL.
     
  18. Jul 19, 2009 #18
    Vickie

    Vickie New Member

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    How can you say that I deny these words below that speak of Jesus in the heart of the earth? I don't deny what they say, sorry that you are seeing something that I fail to follow you in. My dear sister, you are the one who said Jesus and the thief went to heaven together, I did not make that claim.Just as Jesus said himself he would be IN THE EARTH for three days and three nights, so I believe his words. Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a whale, "SO WILL THE SON OF GOD BE IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH FOR THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS. You don't offend me with your belief. I believe just what these verses say concerning Jesus that come straight from him. Paradise means he was in the heart of the ground once he died, he did not go to heaven right then, just as this verse from Jesus' own mouth says he went to the heart of the earth and it is were he went. If you desire to say the above verses in Matthew are false then so be it. Shoeol is the grave. Jesus is not shown to be inheaven till he was taken away in the clouds, which was 40 days later, I believe, where he ascended into heaven as he left the apostles standing telling them they would see him return this same way. The thief went to ground with him, or you can call it the grave. How can you say Jesus went to heaven upon death? It goes againstthe entire bible and God's word of resurrecting Jesus upon the 3rd day. My sincerest sorry that you do not accept the above truth. I am not here to convert you nor can I make you accept any of the words above from Matthew 12:40 Jesus was in the ground for 3 days. IF Jesus had gone to heaven then, the verses in the bible would have told us so. Ephesians 4:8-10 is speaking of us being a prisoner of the Lord (verse 1) we are his captives,being led by him, and he has given us gifts, some apostles, some teachers, etc., this does not indicate in any way that people went to heaven with him. Some times to take one verse out of context because how it is translated, helps with clarity if one reads the entire chapter for a clear understanding of Ephesians. In Christ's precious words of truth. Vickie
     
  19. Jul 19, 2009 #19
    Christina

    Christina New Member

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    His body was in a tomb for three 3 days his spirit was not nor was he asleep with a thief Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes, according to Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20.This is what he was doing not sleeping with the thief ... He compared himself to Jonah in belly of a fish was Jonah dead and buried ????
     
  20. Jul 20, 2009 #20
    cedarhart

    cedarhart When good men do nothing, evil will triumph.Take a

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    Well right off the bat, I see one biggg problem. Vickie, you are not using a King James Version Bible which does make all the difference in the world. The new versions change the wording around and sometimes even use different words according to their interpretation. You must stick with the KJV as it DOES make a difference. Use also the Strong's Concordance. I understand your logic. But.......it is incorrect. It shows that you have thought about this deeply. However, somewhere you went and took a wrong turn in understanding the message. Sorry. I give you credit for your effort but it would be wise to open your mind and understand that God is the God of the Living and not the dead rotting body in the ground. Those bodies are gone, gone. It is our Souls that count and they are purely Spiritual. Here is the difference in wording. It may not seem like much but it is and other verses are often twisted if it's not the KJV. The newer interpretations are not necessary. They have found it to be a big business item to create a newer version of the Bible consistently.Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a whale, "SO WILL THE SON OF GOD BE IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH FOR THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS. KJV Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Isn't it possible for the "Heart of the Earth" to be representitive of man's Soul? The Earth does not have a "heart" but man does. The human heart here on earth belongs to God. The heart is often referred to when Scripture speaks of man's essence. This is his Spirit/Soul. So if Christ spent 3 days and 3 nights in the "heart of the earth", he spent it with the Souls/Spirits of those who were on earth prior. My personal opinion is that the Souls/Spirits He went to visit were those on the wrong side of the "Gulf". It would be those whom rejected God or were ignorant of Him prior to Christ on Earth. Those in the Old Testament who were faithful and obedient, as Lazarus, and all those who made their "sin offerings" for forgiveness, "made it". Christ became our one time and all time Sacrifice.
     
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