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Leadership in the Church

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by oleyomoleyo, Feb 7, 2007.

  1. oleyomoleyo

    oleyomoleyo New Member

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    Would you please provide information/knowledge on 2 Timothy 2:12regarding leadership roles of women in the Church. The way it reads is that women should not hold any leadership roles in the Church. ie pastoring, elders and deacons. Is this correct?
     
  2. oleyomoleyo

    oleyomoleyo New Member

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    I'm sorry, I meant: 1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. From my study of this verse it seems to me it is pretty straight forward. Anyone agree/disagree?
     
  3. ROS777

    ROS777 New Member

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    (oleyomoleyo;7004)
    I'm sorry, I meant: 1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. From my study of this verse it seems to me it is pretty straight forward. Anyone agree/disagree?
    Check out; 2 Kings 22:14 and Judges 4:4, Romans 16:3
     
  4. oleyomoleyo

    oleyomoleyo New Member

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    (ROS777;7035)
    Check out; 2 Kings 22:14 and Judges 4:4, Romans 16:3
    The versus here certainly do prove that there were women prophets and even a judge, but, do they literally relate to a womens role in the church?
     
  5. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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  6. oleyomoleyo

    oleyomoleyo New Member

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    Thats quite a post you directed me to there Swampfox. As for your question, what is the Church? Here is Websters definition:ChurchCHURCH, n.1. A house consecrated to the worship of God, among Christians; the Lords house. This seems to be the original meaning of the word. The Greek, to call out or call together, denotes an assembly or collection. But, Lord, a term applied by the early Christians to Jesus Christ; and the house in which they worshipped was named from the title. So church goods, bona ecclesiastica; the Lords day, dies dominica.2. The collective body of Christians, or of those who profess to believe in Christ, and acknowledge him to be the Savior of mankind. In this sense, the church is sometimes called the Catholic or Universal Church.3. A particular number of christens, united under one form of ecclesiastical government, in one creed, and using the same ritual and ceremonies; as the English church; the Gallican church; the Presbyterian church; the Romish church; the Greek church.4. The followers of Christ in a particular city or province; as the church of Ephesus, or of Antioch.5. The disciples of Christ assembled for worship in a particular place, as in a private house. Col 4.6. The worshipers of Jehovah or the true God, before the advent of Christ; as the Jewish church.7. The body of clergy, or ecclesiastics, in distinction from the laity. Hence, ecclesiastical authority.8. An assembly of sacred rulers convened in Christs name to execute his laws.9. The collective body of Christians, who have made a public profession of the Christian religion, and who are untied under the same pastor; in distinction from those who belong to the same parish, or ecclesiastical society, but have made no profession of their faith.The King James Dictionary defines the Church as this:ChurchAssembly of "called out" ones.Likewise greet the CHURCH that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto ChristSo, the verse reads: But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. I beleive this says what it means and means what it says. Heres an exposition of 1 Timothy 2:12 by John Gill:1Ti 2:12 - But I suffer not a woman to teach, They may teach in private, in their own houses and families; they are to be teachers of good things, Tit_2:3. They are to bring up their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord; nor is the law or doctrine of a mother to be forsaken, any more than the instruction of a father; see Pro_1:8. Timothy, no doubt, received much advantage, from the private teachings and instructions of his mother Eunice, and grandmother Lois; but then women are not to teach in the church; for that is an act of power and authority, and supposes the persons that teach to be of a superior degree, and in a superior office, and to have superior abilities to those who are taught by them: nor to usurp authority over the man; as not in civil and political things, or in things relating to civil government; and in things domestic, or the affairs of the family; so not in things ecclesiastical, or what relate to the church and government of it; for one part of rule is to feed the church with knowledge and understanding; and for a woman to take upon her to do this, is to usurp an authority over the man: this therefore she ought not to do, but to be in silence; to sit and hear quietly and silently, and learn, and not teach, as in 1Ti_2:11.Heres a commentary on the same verse by Matthew Henry:The best ornaments for professors of godliness are good works. 5. According to Paul, women must be learners, and are not allowed to be public teachers in the church; for teaching is an office of authority, and the woman must not usurp authority over the man, but is to be in silence. But, notwithstanding this prohibition, good women may and ought to teach their children at home the principles of religion. Timothy from a child had known the holy scriptures; and who should teach him but his mother and grandmother? 2Ti_3:15. Aquila and his wife Priscilla expounded unto Apollos the way of God more perfectly; but then they did it privately, for they took him unto them, Act_18:26. 6. Here are two very good reasons given for the man's authority over the woman, and her subjection to the man, 1Ti_2:13, 1Ti_2:14. Adam was first formed, then Eve; she was created for the man, and not the man for the woman (1Co_11:9); then she was deceived, and brought the man into the transgression. 7. Though the difficulties and dangers of childbearing are many and great, as they are part of the punishment inflicted on the sex for Eve's transgression, yet here is much for her support and encouragement: Notwithstanding she shall be saved, etc. Though in sorrow, yet she shall bring forth, and be a living mother of living children; with this proviso, that they continue in faith, and charity, and holiness, with sobriety: and women, under the circumstance of child-bearing should by faith lay hold of this promise for their support in the needful time.2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
     
  7. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    These commentators miss the key point - read the verse in context and don't pick it out to discuss it as a single verse. The example here pushes one to a conclusion - either the Bible contradicts itself or there's more here than first glance would have to think. My point about the church was that the church is the bride of Christ not a building, hierarchy, or anything else along those lines. A prophetess would have been a part of the Church as a called upon leader by God. There are several prophetesses spoken of in both the New and the Old Testament. Seemingly this idea of complete subjugation violates itself. But it doesn't. The simple truth is read the verse in context. This is speaking to a married woman who is married to a teacher within the church and this (with all due respect to the female race) is speaking to a tendency of women to gossip. If you're a preacher, for example, and your wife is gossiping or trying to take over your position through teaching, what is she doing? She's taking you away from teaching the Word because what she does will, sooner or later, interfere with your teaching. If you (as a woman) teach or usurp - note particularly the word "usurp" - time from the teacher of God's Word, then there is a problem and this is exactly what it's speaking to. It's not saying anything about a woman being filled with wisdom and the spirit not being able to teach. I leave with this: Titus 2:3-5The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. You'll find the same is true in the first letter to the Corinthians. The idea is that women (and men) should not speak out in church to take away from the Word of God when it is being taught.
     
  8. oleyomoleyo

    oleyomoleyo New Member

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    The point Paul is making here is that this is referring to a ranking or hierarchy if you will relating to Creation and the man being first in Creation. In my study of this chapter, I have not found anyone who associates it with marriage. I have listened to and read expositions/commentaries by many respected biblical scholars and they all agree the verse means what it says. In public, the woman is not to teach the man. Chuck Missler has studyed the Bible for over 50 years. John MacAuthur is another great scholar as is J. Vernon Mcgee, Chuck Smith and Ray Steadman, just to name a few. These are just a few of the many who agree that the verse says what it means and means what it says. I do not see how so many could be missing the "Key Point" as you say. True, I might be missing something but I think further study perhaps should be done here to insure we interpret this the way God has intended. To hear and read more about 1 Timothy 2: Try this link and be prepared to spend some time there.http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/pop...&version=KJV#12
     
  9. oleyomoleyo

    oleyomoleyo New Member

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    Can women serve as elders in the church?byJohn MacArthurAll Rights ReservedWe don't believe there's a place for women elders in the church. When the apostle Paul said that a woman should not "teach or exercise authority over a man" (1 Timothy 2:12), he did not follow that statement with a cultural argument. Rather he went all the way back to creation to show that women weren't intended to dominate men (vv. 13-14). The reasons he gave are that the woman was created after the man, and that she was deceived when acting independently of his leadership.Paul goes on to say in 1 Timothy 2:15 that "women shall be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint." That verse is not talking about women's eternal destiny, but means that they are saved from being second-class citizens through the privilege of rearing children. God designed a woman to fulfill a role in the home that no man ever can (Proverbs 31:10-31; Titus 2:4-5).Our society's current thinking on the woman's role is contrary to the priorities revealed in the Bible. Genesis 3 explains why that conflict exists. After the Fall, God told the woman, "Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you" (Genesis 3:16). Genesis 4:7 helps us to understand what that verse means. There God told Cain, "Sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." Exactly the same phrase is used in both passages. So in the same way sin tries to dominate us all, fallen women desire to overpower their husbands, and fallen men tend to oppress them in the same way sin oppresses the sinner. The intended balance, of course, is achieved when men and women lead and submit in a godly manner (Ephesians 5:22-33).
     
  10. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    When we are in the millenial age... I'll come help you understand, poor thing..I'd do it now but alas I'm a woman.
     
  11. Broken Crusader

    Broken Crusader New Member

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    Hi Ole,I like to put a practical spin on these things. Here at CB and elsewhere, there a lot of knowledgeable women. I, a man, have learned a lot from them, and I know I will learn more. I consider it a blessining beyond measure that our Lord has put these women on my path. We, are all followers of Christ, I have much to learn, and even if God calls me to one day Pastor a church, I know that the spirit of Christ's church lies in the heart of women. I know that God will continue to teach me through whom he chooses. Honeslty so few good men step up up to the plate these days, we need women.Oh, and to use scripture to support what I know in my heart, you know, to keep it real as they say, I only need to look at John 2, the wedding feast of Cana, where Christ was ultimately obedient to his mother, she was in a position of authority over Him, and not within the home, but quite publicly, in the middle of the 7 days of a wedding. If Christ saw nothing of value in her instruction, He would not have done it at all. What better time to reprove a woman for telling a man, no less, the Son of God, when His ministry should start. We know, however, He was obeying the commandment to honor your father and mother, but then, as Swampfox says, scripture cannot be contradicting, so if He was, then there also has to be more to 1 Tim 2:15.
     
  12. Fox

    Fox New Member

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    The first "Christians" were, effectively, Messianic Jews joined by Gentiles. Their churches would have been run as were the synagogues - the men traditionally sit on one side, and the women traditionally sit on the other. The Gentile women would have no knowledge or understanding of the etiquette of the synagogue, and would call out from their side of the congregation to their husbands to verify questions. This could be why Shaul said they should ask their husbands at home and not speak out, because they were interrupting his sermons! Look at the socio-historical context - early Christians were looked down upon for treating their wives and womenfolk as equals. We know from contemporary writings that society had a generally negative attitude towards women and, in gerneral, both Jews and Greeks believed women should be limited to the domestic roles of wife and mother and treated them pretty much as chattels. Despite this Yeshua had a very positive attitude towards them; for example: 1.He accepted and affirmed women who were neglected by society and declared them people of value. 2.He healed women who were considered ritually unclean and forgave women guilty of sexual sin. 3.He both taught women and included them amongst his followers. 4.In his teaching they are often used as examples of people living a life of faith. 5.Although women were not generally educated at the time of Yeshua he allowed them to sit at his feet - which was not an insult, but a great compliment: it was the traditional posture of a disciple.Shaul is a man who stands astride both the Tanakh and the B'rit Hadashah - he was a Jewish Pharisee! In the fledgling apostolic church, he was able to understand the cultural sensitivities and peculiarities of both the Jew and the Gentile. He faced very real trials - and severe beatings, even imprisonment - as he sought to establish Yeshua's church. We know from the B'rit Hadashah that he was very clever - and could talk people around to his way of thinking; but he still needed to be sensitive to the opinions of society whilst trying to establish the new Messianic faith. Shaul's letters to the young churches would have been written in response to real issues facing them at the time. When Shaul writes about women he is obviously responding to a situation in the "there and then" about their role and place in the new church structures. From a text on feminist theology, I would like you to read this:
    It seems Paul was giving instructions to the Church which, although on the surface it looks like it denies women the right to teach and have spiritual leadership in the Church, now looks more like Paul was actually empowering women and giving them a status denied to them by society. Despite the fact that women were not held in high regard Paul taught that they were equal with men (Galatians 3:28). Far from denying women the right to have spiritual leadership Paul in fact wants women to be educated first before this happens (1 Timothy 2:11-15). Until such time Paul sets out some basic rules which will enable women to learn ("A women should learn in quietness and in full submission"). Elsewhere in the New Testament Paul acknowledges that women can have (and are having), a spiritual input into "services". In a letter to the church at Corinth he writes, "And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head..." (1 Corinthians 11:5). Notice he does not say women should not prophesy (or preach/teach) in Church services but only that they should have their head covered when they do. Thus even Paul acknowledges and allows that women should exercise spiritual leadership in Church.
    The passage from Galatians, incidentally, reads: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Gal 3:28)
     
  13. lastsecman

    lastsecman New Member

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    sorry, wrong post!
     
  14. lastsecman

    lastsecman New Member

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    [​IMG] I guess that's why Jesus gave us the newest commandment at the end to love our neighbors as ourselves, because He knew that the world would come to be like this, everyone with their own different point of views and opinions. :pray: SIGH~~!!!
     
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