Let your women be silent?

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Justadude

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Saw this story today...

Wylie Mayor Defends Religious Belief That Only Men Should Lead Public Prayer

The email exchange began Thursday when a Councilmember and Mayor Pro Tem Jeff Forrester asked Mayor Hogue if a local missionary group could “come to our next meeting and lead us in prayer before the meeting.”

Mayor Hogue agrees saying with one stipulation: "...that those leading the public prayer be young men."

“I am a Church of Christ preacher and I am a member of the Church of Christ and we take the new testament literally,” Mayor Hogue said.

In the email, Mayor Hogue quotes a bible verse that says: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

“What I will say is a woman can do absolutely anything and everything but if we're in a public setting, in a religious setting, the bibles teaches that she's not to say a public prayer or to lead the singing or to deliver the sermon,” Mayor Hogue said.

"I don't share those same beliefs," said Mayor Pro Tem Jeff Forrester.

In his 12 years as mayor, Hogue said he's only selected men to lead council meeting prayers.

Wylie resident Mary Shaddox disagrees with his beliefs.

“That's his right in his church and his home but he cannot bring it into a government office,” Shaddox said.
I think this is a great example of why the separation of church and state is vital. As Ms. Shaddox noted, the Mayor is free to hold those beliefs and practice them in his church, but the government is under no obligation to base its policies or practices on them. I mean, even the verse he cited specifies "it is a shame for women to speak in the church". The City Hall is not church, which one would think is obvious. So I have no idea why this Mayor thinks the City should operate according to his religious beliefs.

Can you imagine the outrage if a Muslim Mayor demanded that all women cover themselves at City Hall?
 

Giuliano

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LOL! That was a big shock to my then-girlfriend now-wife when she first saw my Amish relatives do that.
I think the Amish here in Pennsylvania gave up the kissing, at least for the time being. Now if Patriarch Kiril can get people to stop kissing the icons and communion cups in Russia!

Russian Orthodox Church imposes new rules to fight coronavirus spread, but only in Moscow — Meduza

The Russian Orthodox Church has developed new rules to curb the spread of coronavirus during church services. The precautions have been approved by Patriarch Kirill, but they apply only to the Moscow diocese.

As part of the new safety measures, spoons used for wine in communion services must be wiped off with an alcohol-soaked cloth and dunked in water. The church’s Moscow diocese is also introducing single-use cups for zapivka (wine diluted with water consumed after communion) and parishioners’ mouths will be wiped using paper napkins that will then be burned. Churchgoers will also be asked not to kiss the communion cup.

The church officials who cut the consecrated bread will now wear disposable gloves and a cotton swab and paper towel will be used in confirmations. At the end of mass, parishioners will no longer be given a cross to kiss (it will merely be touched to their heads). Priests have also been asked to refrain from offering their hands to be kissed.
 
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FHII

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Couple thoughts...

Forrester asked Mayor Hogue if a local missionary group could “come to our next meeting and lead us in prayer before the meeting.”

While this doesn't break any new or old testament rules, Jesus did say we should pray in our closets if we want them to be heard. While I don't believe this means a literal closet, it does mean to do it privately and not in Puplic. So right off the bat... It doesn't matter. It's an ineffective prayer.

In the email, Mayor Hogue quotes a bible verse that says: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
Yes, it does say that, and I know others will disagree, but this is why I don't believe women should be preachers. That does not mean they must keep a zipped lip.

It doesn't say they can't sing. It doesn't say they can't pray or lead a prayer (a body of believers can pray together in secret). It doesn't even mean they can't read a sermon, as often was the case when Paul wrote letters. It's been noted in history books I've read (perhaps there is incidences listed in the Bible) that women would read letters. It wasn't their sermon, they were just the mouthpiece.

. I mean, even the verse he cited specifies "it is a shame for women to speak in the church". The City Hall is not church,
Good point!

I know some will be upset that I don't believe women should be preachers. Take comfort in that I do believe they can have alot more of a verbal roll than you may think. They can even be prophetesses, even in the NT. However, understand that this is set up to teach us something more important: Christ is the Husband and the Church is the bride (the woman). Do not the preachers of the Church preach? Yes, they do! But they are to stay within the guidelines the husband (Jesus) put forth.
 

theophilus

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The Bible's instructions regarding prayer apply on to churches. It says nothing about how secular institutions such as city councils may conduct their meetings. (There are many who think city councils have no business praying at all, but that is a different issue entirely.)
 

Prayer Warrior

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Saw this story today...

Wylie Mayor Defends Religious Belief That Only Men Should Lead Public Prayer

The email exchange began Thursday when a Councilmember and Mayor Pro Tem Jeff Forrester asked Mayor Hogue if a local missionary group could “come to our next meeting and lead us in prayer before the meeting.”

Mayor Hogue agrees saying with one stipulation: "...that those leading the public prayer be young men."

“I am a Church of Christ preacher and I am a member of the Church of Christ and we take the new testament literally,” Mayor Hogue said.

In the email, Mayor Hogue quotes a bible verse that says: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

“What I will say is a woman can do absolutely anything and everything but if we're in a public setting, in a religious setting, the bibles teaches that she's not to say a public prayer or to lead the singing or to deliver the sermon,” Mayor Hogue said.

"I don't share those same beliefs," said Mayor Pro Tem Jeff Forrester.

In his 12 years as mayor, Hogue said he's only selected men to lead council meeting prayers.

Wylie resident Mary Shaddox disagrees with his beliefs.

“That's his right in his church and his home but he cannot bring it into a government office,” Shaddox said.
I think this is a great example of why the separation of church and state is vital. As Ms. Shaddox noted, the Mayor is free to hold those beliefs and practice them in his church, but the government is under no obligation to base its policies or practices on them. I mean, even the verse he cited specifies "it is a shame for women to speak in the church". The City Hall is not church, which one would think is obvious. So I have no idea why this Mayor thinks the City should operate according to his religious beliefs.

Can you imagine the outrage if a Muslim Mayor demanded that all women cover themselves at City Hall?

This mayor is grossly misinterpreting the Bible. That's all there is to it.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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It wasn't their sermon, they were just the mouthpiece.

So whose sermon was it? Is it not God’s and His body the “mouthpiece”.

This topic has nearly broken me. Story of my life and the very cause for doubting God can ever love the deceived. A few verses on “silent”. 1 Timothy 2:11-12 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. [12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Samuel 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

Psalm 31:17-18 Let me not be ashamed, O Lord ; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. [18] Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous.

Jeremiah 8:14-15 Why do we sit still? assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the Lord our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the Lord. [15] We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble!

Zechariah 2:13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the Lord : for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.

Habakkuk 2:19-20 Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it. [20] But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.

Yet 1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
^spiritual fruits “Faith, Charity, and holiness.”
 

VictoryinJesus

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Men have some subjecting to do also if all is and continue under the schoolmaster. 1 Timothy 2:8-9 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. [9] In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

1 Corinthians 14:33-38 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. [34] Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. [35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. [36] What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? [37] If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. [38] But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

1 Peter 2:15-18 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: [16] As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. [17] Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. [18] Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.


Galatians 3:24-29 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Psalm 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

Romans 13:1-7 let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. [2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. [3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: [4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. [5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. [6] For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. [7] Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due ; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Luke 23:1-2 And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate. [2] And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.

Mark 12:14-17 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? [15] Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it. [16] And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's. [17] And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Yet countless threads here on being not in subjection or under the higher powers, but instead no longer under the schoolmaster. Which is it? In subjection to the government put in place, and those in charge the froward also ...or only when it is self serving? Look at the crucifix when you want to talk about submission.
 

bbyrd009

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Saw this story today...

Wylie Mayor Defends Religious Belief That Only Men Should Lead Public Prayer

The email exchange began Thursday when a Councilmember and Mayor Pro Tem Jeff Forrester asked Mayor Hogue if a local missionary group could “come to our next meeting and lead us in prayer before the meeting.”

Mayor Hogue agrees saying with one stipulation: "...that those leading the public prayer be young men."

“I am a Church of Christ preacher and I am a member of the Church of Christ and we take the new testament literally,” Mayor Hogue said.

In the email, Mayor Hogue quotes a bible verse that says: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

“What I will say is a woman can do absolutely anything and everything but if we're in a public setting, in a religious setting, the bibles teaches that she's not to say a public prayer or to lead the singing or to deliver the sermon,” Mayor Hogue said.

"I don't share those same beliefs," said Mayor Pro Tem Jeff Forrester.

In his 12 years as mayor, Hogue said he's only selected men to lead council meeting prayers.

Wylie resident Mary Shaddox disagrees with his beliefs.

“That's his right in his church and his home but he cannot bring it into a government office,” Shaddox said.
I think this is a great example of why the separation of church and state is vital. As Ms. Shaddox noted, the Mayor is free to hold those beliefs and practice them in his church, but the government is under no obligation to base its policies or practices on them. I mean, even the verse he cited specifies "it is a shame for women to speak in the church". The City Hall is not church, which one would think is obvious. So I have no idea why this Mayor thinks the City should operate according to his religious beliefs.

Can you imagine the outrage if a Muslim Mayor demanded that all women cover themselves at City Hall?
migt be useful to contemplate "woman" in the Bible as "emotions,"
there are no male or female in the kingdom
two (men) in a bed

etc
 

101G

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First thanks for the topic,
#1. people of the law, or in power, has stated this claim, so have many in government position also, saying, "ignorance of the Law is no excuse", ok, good, but, "ignorance of the scriptures is no excuse also", this Mayor is just that in scripture. if one would examine 1 Corinthians14:34 closley, it is not even speaking to WOMEN, or wives in the church at all, but to their ignorant "HUSBANDS"/men. listen. 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."
if one would notice it said, "Let your" ... women. the apostle was not even addressing the women or wives of the church at all, but the "ignorant" husband/men of the church. the apostle Paul said, "let your women/Wives keep silence". so the address was not to women/wives to to the husbands/men in the church.

if I said, "let your child stop running around in church", who am I addressing, you or your child? see how the Mayor and many men are ignorant of the law, sorry, no I mean ignorant of the scriptures....... :) ignorant men in power, about 99% is the cause of the problems in the world today.

Mayor like this one need the teaching of God in their hearts. if he had God in his heart he would have know, that there is neither male nor female in Christ. such men and or women should neither hold or run for office. they disqualify themselves by their ignorance ... of the scriptures.

PS, I don't personally believe in separation of church and states, because,
Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."
Romans 13:2 "Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."
Romans 13:3 "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:"
Romans 13:4 "For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

verses 3 & 4 is good is the person in office/power is God ordained. but those who are still in the flesh, ignorant of the law/scriptures, 2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

but with Mayor and others like this in office/power, separation of church and states might be a good thing for now until the Lord Jesus return.

PICJAG.
 

Prayer Warrior

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This topic has nearly broken me. Story of my life and the very cause for doubting God can ever love the deceived. A few verses on “silent”. 1 Timothy 2:11-12 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. [12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Sounds serious, but you really need to look at these verses in context. The 1 Timothy 2 verse that you quote was written by Paul in the context of women USURPING authority over men. To usurp means "to seize and hold (office, place, functions, powers, etc.) in possession by force or without right." Others on here may know what specific circumstances caused Paul to write this to Timothy.

if one would examine 1 Corinthians14:34 closley, it is not even speaking to WOMEN, or wives in the church at all, but to their ignorant "HUSBANDS"/men. listen. 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."

I've read commentaries about this 1 Cor 14 verse, and Paul is addressing the lack of order in the church service. Evidently, women were being disruptive by asking their husbands questions.

The idea that women were NEVER allowed to speak in the service is false, because earlier in his epistle to the Corinthian church, Paul says this:

1 Cor 11:4-5--Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.

Paul is not prohibiting women from praying or prophesying in the church service in these verses, so we have to look at what he says later in this epistle with this in mind. Even though the verses I just quoted seem to be full of landmines when it comes to interpreting all that Paul is saying, the bottomline is they show that Paul is not issuing a general prohibition against women speaking in church.
 
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101G

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Sounds serious, but you really need to look at these verses in context. The 1 Timothy 2 verse that you quote was written by Paul in the context of women USURPING authority over men. To usurp means "to seize and hold (office, place, functions, powers, etc.) in possession by force or without right." Others on here may know what specific circumstances caused Paul to write this to Timothy.



I've read commentaries about this 1 Cor 14 verse, and Paul is addressing the lack of order in the church service. Evidently, women were being disruptive by asking their husbands questions.

The idea that women were NEVER allowed to speak in the service is false, because earlier in his epistle to the Corinthian church, Paul says this:

1 Cor 11:4-5--Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.

Paul is not prohibiting women from praying or prophesying in the church service in these verses, so we have to look at what he says later in this epistle with this in mind. Even though the verses I just quoted seem to be full of landmines when it comes to interpreting all that Paul is saying, the bottomline is they show that Paul is not issuing a general prohibition against women speaking in church.
First thanks for the reply, second, I have heard of that explination before. and also I agrees with your assessment of, "Paul is not prohibiting women from praying or prophesying in the church service in these verses".
with that said, not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. the apostle Paul, by the Holy Spirit/God was speaking to HUSBAND of Wives in the church, who husbands did no excised their duties as husbands at home, when their wives acted out of ORDER, because of the lack of teaching of the things of God by their husbands at home. God is a God of "ORDER", and not confusion. now, how do we know that this is about Hubsand and wives? listen to the scriptures, 1 Corinthians 14:35 "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
the word for "women" here in verse 34 above, and before this verse 35, is the Greek word,
G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n.
1. a woman.
2. (specially) a wife.
[probably from the base of G1096]
KJV: wife, woman
Root(s): G1096

verse 35 reveals the meaning of "woman" in verse 34 as to who these women are? wives, for the only "woman" who have a "husband" is a wife. so the address was not to all or every woman in the church, but to the wives of husbands who acted out of ORDER, (read the verses before verse 34, which are, 1-33), in the church. because their husbands did not do their duty at home by teaching their wives the things of God at home first before they came to church.
now if the Holy Ghost by the apostle Paul would have said, let your G2338 θήλυς thelus keep silence in the churches, then that would have covered every woman in the churches. for the Greek word, G2338 θήλυς thelus (thee'-lïs) adj. means "FEMALE", married or not.

so, the shame was on the husbands who didn't by law, instructed or taught their wives the order, and thing of God.

so you're correct in, "bottomline is they show that Paul is not issuing a general prohibition against women speaking in church". BINGO.

this is connect to, 1 Timothy 2:12-15 where it was clearly the husband responsibility to instruct his wife in the things of God.

thanks for the reply, be blessed in christ with all things of him.

PICJAG.
 

Prayer Warrior

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First thanks for the reply, second, I have heard of that explination before. and also I agrees with your assessment of, "Paul is not prohibiting women from praying or prophesying in the church service in these verses".
with that said, not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. the apostle Paul, by the Holy Spirit/God was speaking to HUSBAND of Wives in the church, who husbands did no excised their duties as husbands at home, when their wives acted out of ORDER, because of the lack of teaching of the things of God by their husbands at home. God is a God of "ORDER", and not confusion. now, how do we know that this is about Hubsand and wives? listen to the scriptures, 1 Corinthians 14:35 "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
the word for "women" here in verse 34 above, and before this verse 35, is the Greek word,
G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n.
1. a woman.
2. (specially) a wife.
[probably from the base of G1096]
KJV: wife, woman
Root(s): G1096

verse 35 reveals the meaning of "woman" in verse 34 as to who these women are? wives, for the only "woman" who have a "husband" is a wife. so the address was not to all or every woman in the church, but to the wives of husbands who acted out of ORDER, (read the verses before verse 34, which are, 1-33), in the church. because their husbands did not do their duty at home by teaching their wives the things of God at home first before they came to church.
now if the Holy Ghost by the apostle Paul would have said, let your G2338 θήλυς thelus keep silence in the churches, then that would have covered every woman in the churches. for the Greek word, G2338 θήλυς thelus (thee'-lïs) adj. means "FEMALE", married or not.

so, the shame was on the husbands who didn't by law, instructed or taught their wives the order, and thing of God.

so you're correct in, "bottomline is they show that Paul is not issuing a general prohibition against women speaking in church". BINGO.

this is connect to, 1 Timothy 2:12-15 where it was clearly the husband responsibility to instruct his wife in the things of God.

thanks for the reply, be blessed in christ with all things of him.

PICJAG.
I appreciate your explanation. So...I guess I’m off the hook because I don’t have a husband. ;)

Actually, the local church I attend allows men and women to speak. Some of the most encouraging words and testimonies have been from women.
 

Justadude

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While this doesn't break any new or old testament rules, Jesus did say we should pray in our closets if we want them to be heard. While I don't believe this means a literal closet, it does mean to do it privately and not in Puplic. So right off the bat... It doesn't matter. It's an ineffective prayer.
That verse is quite popular in atheist/skeptic/non-Christian circles, mostly when some football coach, politician, or other person makes a big show out of praying in front of everyone.

Yes, it does say that, and I know others will disagree, but this is why I don't believe women should be preachers. That does not mean they must keep a zipped lip.

I know some will be upset that I don't believe women should be preachers. Take comfort in that I do believe they can have alot more of a verbal roll than you may think. They can even be prophetesses, even in the NT. However, understand that this is set up to teach us something more important: Christ is the Husband and the Church is the bride (the woman). Do not the preachers of the Church preach? Yes, they do! But they are to stay within the guidelines the husband (Jesus) put forth.
That's been somewhat of an issue in my family. The vast majority believe as you do, but we have one family member who's a woman pastor. Fortunately though, she's a great person that no one could ever dislike, which tamps down quite a bit of the potential conflicts.
 

Justadude

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migt be useful to contemplate "woman" in the Bible as "emotions,"
there are no male or female in the kingdom
two (men) in a bed

etc
Huh. Never heard that before. That'd be an odd way for Paul to have put it, don't you think?
 
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101G

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I appreciate your explanation. So...I guess I’m off the hook because I don’t have a husband. ;)

Actually, the local church I attend allows men and women to speak. Some of the most encouraging words and testimonies have been from women.
(smile), thanks for the reply... and no, your are not off the hook, because God have great thing for you to do. remember there is neither male nor female in Christ. so listen real Good, you're married to Christ...Ooop's ... (smile), and your husband, JESUS the Christ, has a lot to teach all of us, including YOU too, Mrs Prayer Warrior, (smile).... lol.. now, might as well get ready to learn, as we all are, from YOUR/our husband ... the Lord Jesus the Christ.... now, what you git to say about that?

PICJAG.
 
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