Lets Define "Works"

[TEXBOW]

I think that many differences in theology are the results of Christians definition of WORKS. Some categorize works into two buckets. Those of the regenerated spirit and those that are physical outward works.

We could discuss for days on the century old debate on the belief that any work earns salvation but we first must understand what is a work. I think physical works like contributing money or labor, being baptized would be considered physical works and very few Christians would believe that doing any of these types of works gains salvation in any form. I realize that some believe that water baptism is fully necessary for salvation but I think they are in the minority on this view.

But do we believe that things like prayer, repentance, confession of sins, believing, loving God with all your heart, loving your neighbor as yourself, love in general, reading your bible, having faith, seeking the Lord, do some believe that these things are considered works and are necessary to be righteous before our Savior?

Would some say that a born again Christian need not pray, confess his sins (I realize that some believe they no longer sin), witness and share the Gospel, love and follow Gods commands and still be righteous before our Savior?

 

[Nancy]

Hello @TEXBOW , welcome to the site.
Works, works, works...lol. All you mentioned above about praying, seeking, loving. reading scripture, etc. should come natural to a born again Christian. I do not see those things as works but maybe God does? Either way...any kind of "works will get NO ONE to heaven.
God bless and I hope you enjoy it here!

 

[marks]

I think that many differences in theology are the results of Christians definition of WORKS. Some categorize works into two buckets. Those of the regenerated spirit and those that are physical outward works.

We could discuss for days on the century old debate on the belief that any work earns salvation but we first must understand what is a work. I think physical works like contributing money or labor, being baptized would be considered physical works and very few Christians would believe that doing any of these types of works gains salvation in any form. I realize that some believe that water baptism is fully necessary for salvation but I think they are in the minority on this view.

But do we believe that things like prayer, repentance, confession of sins, believing, loving God with all your heart, loving your neighbor as yourself, love in general, reading your bible, having faith, seeking the Lord, do some believe that these things are considered works and are necessary to be righteous before our Savior?

Would some say that a born again Christian need not pray, confess his sins (I realize that some believe they no longer sin), witness and share the Gospel, love and follow Gods commands and still be righteous before our Savior?

Works are things you do.

We need the righteousness that is not of works, but of Christ.

Much love!

 

[prism]

Works is that which man does in order to attain God's favor.

Grace is what God does to bring and keep man in His favor.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

Works is that which man does in order to attain God's favor.

Grace is what God does to bring and keep man in His favor.

The apostles taught that obeying God's laws was necessary so that the people who properly live by them them can understand the mind of God and have His character ingrained in them. It's no surprise that people who subscribe to such a philosophy subscribe to false gospels that are centered around a false Christ: they don't believe what Moses said in Deut. 4:6 about the wisdom that comes from obeying God:

"“Therefore be careful to observe them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes, and say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’"

A major problem with Romanists is that they don't understand that the Bible teaches a crystal clear difference between works that are required of a Christian and the dead, futile works of the world. God's people stick out from literally everybody else because they have the wisdom that comes from keeping His laws as commanded. It was true in Moses' day, it was true in Christ's day, and it's especially true in today. Performing the required works is not about trying to earn God's favor. It's about understanding God and acquiring His nature, as 2 Pet. 1:3-11 teaches.

 

[Mungo]

I think that many differences in theology are the results of Christians definition of WORKS. Some categorize works into two buckets. Those of the regenerated spirit and those that are physical outward works.

We could discuss for days on the century old debate on the belief that any work earns salvation but we first must understand what is a work. I think physical works like contributing money or labor, being baptized would be considered physical works and very few Christians would believe that doing any of these types of works gains salvation in any form. I realize that some believe that water baptism is fully necessary for salvation but I think they are in the minority on this view.

But do we believe that things like prayer, repentance, confession of sins, believing, loving God with all your heart, loving your neighbor as yourself, love in general, reading your bible, having faith, seeking the Lord, do some believe that these things are considered works and are necessary to be righteous before our Savior?

Would some say that a born again Christian need not pray, confess his sins (I realize that some believe they no longer sin), witness and share the Gospel, love and follow Gods commands and still be righteous before our Savior?

Actually it's people who believe that baptism with water does not gain salvation that are in the minority.

Here is my take on works:
The Concise Oxford English Dictionary gives several definitions of work. The first and most general is:
“activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result.”

By this definition “believing” and “confessing with the lips” is work. Therefore Protestants believe in “salvation by works”. Of course they deny it – but then Catholics also deny they believe in “salvation by works”. Instead of throwing slogans around we need to look at what scripture says about this.

St. Paul’s writes much about salvation (justification) and works in his letter to the Romans. A key text is Rom 3:19-28, and a key phrase that Paul uses in this is “works of the law”
20 For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
(He also uses the phrase works of the law in Gal 2:1, 3:2, 5 & 10)

This implies that Paul recognises two classes of “works” – works of the law and works that are not works of the law. We’ll come to the latter later. But let us concentrate on what Paul means by works of the law.

In Romans 2 he writes
25 Circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.

And in Gal 3:10
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them."

Clearly by works of the law Paul is referring to the Jewish law.

The Concise Oxford English Dictionary helpfully gives a definition of this class of works - “such activity as a means of earning income”.

It is in this sense of earning something that Paul uses the word in Rom 4:4 when he writes:
“Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due.” (Rom 4:4)

Works done under the law are those done under some sort of legal contract that try to put an obligation on God – to make salvation our due. We try to earn our salvation

If we work, as for an employer, expecting wages as our due then we will be judged under that Law and will always be found wanting and will be condemned.

That is why we can only receive salvation as a gift. It cannot be earned.
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

There is another class of works – works that are not works of the law.
The third definition in Concise Oxford English Dictionary is helpful here – “Theology, good or moral deeds”

Doing “good works” give us merit in the sight of God because they are done out of love and do not attempt to put God under any obligation to reward us.

One definition of merit from the Collins Concise English Dictionary is:
“ a deserving or commendable quality or act.”

Note: in Catholic theology, merit means rewardable. It does not imply earn.

When we do something out of love and not as a contract under Law we do a deserving or commendable act and God will graciously reward us.

“love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High” (Lk 6:35)

“I the Lord search the mind and try the heart, to give to every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.” (Jer 17:10)

“Whoever does good has his reward, which each receives according to his deeds.”(Sir 16:14)
We could give examples of these three definitions of work as follows:
1. – Digging my garden (general definition).
2. – Digging someone else’s garden for a wage (work as earning income)
3. – Digging an elderly neighbour’s garden out of charity (work as a good deed and meritorious – a commendable act)

Paul writes: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast”. (Eph 2:8-9)

Whereas James writes: “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?” (Jas 2:14)

These two are not contradictory if we understand that Paul is referring to works of the law and James is referring to good deeds, meritorious acts, just as in the examples he gives in the following verses:
“If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?”

These are the type of works Jesus refers to in Mt 25:31-45 and Mt 10:41-42

Further, from my examples of digging a garden we can see that it is not the act itself that is good or bad but the cause of the act, the motive. If the act is motivated by love then it is meritorious and God will reward us. If it is driven by other motives (e.g. to get admiration from others) then we may get no reward, at least from God.
“Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven…….” (Mt 6:1 & following verses)

Finally whatever good acts we do are God’s actions in us not just our own. Catholics believe that grace comes in two kinds, sanctifying grace and actual grace. Actual grace is the prompts and help that God gives us to do good deeds. When we do a good deed it is God working in us.

Or, as St. Augustine said "when you crown our merits, you crown your own gifts,"

 

[Addy]

Works= ANYTHING added to the already finished work of CHRIST on the Cross for the sake of SALVATION.

Those who believe in works are those who cannot accept that SALVATION is a one time event that occurs at the moment of our
conversion. It is a supernatural event... It has NOTHING to do with us... and EVERYTHING to do with CHRIST. He purchases us with great cost by His Blood. Done deal. Once and for all.

What transpires in the life of a believer after that is called sanctification... It is the process of letting go of the flesh. Sadly... so
many believers think it is their right to INTERFERE... and TAMPER with/MEDDLE in this process... by judging... comparing and
filling another believer with guilt and shame. CHRIST NEVER fills us with guilt and shame... and HE is most FAITHFUL to
finish within us... that which HE has begun... which is a GOOD WORK.

 

[mailmandan]

Works= ANYTHING added to the already finished work of CHRIST on the Cross for the sake of SALVATION.

Those who believe in works are those who cannot accept that SALVATION is a one time event that occurs at the moment of our
conversion. It is a supernatural event... It has NOTHING to do with us... and EVERYTHING to do with CHRIST. He purchases us with great cost by His Blood. Done deal. Once and for all.

What transpires in the life of a believer after that is called sanctification... It is the process of letting go of the flesh. Sadly... so
many believers think it is their right to INTERFERE... and TAMPER with/MEDDLE in this process... by judging... comparing and
filling another believer with guilt and shame. CHRIST NEVER fills us with guilt and shame... and HE is most FAITHFUL to
finish within us... that which HE has begun... which is a GOOD WORK.

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 2 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc..) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for those who trust in works for salvation to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

 

[Addy]

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 2 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc..) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for those who trust in works for salvation to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

Gotta LOVE the mailman.... Speaking of which... My mailman's name is Alain... He is french... and I also speak french... Every time I see him walking by.... I YELL OUT.... Oh Dear Heart... I love you..... It is a bit different in french... but that is the general drift.... HE loves it... and I love saying it....

It is in the little things that CHRIST can shine brightest...

 

[Taken]

Christians definition of WORKS.

Someone calling themself or others Christian, is second fiddle to me.

The Word of God Himself, revealed what a person calls himself or others, is not the Highlight.
It all hangs on WHAT an Individual DOES.
* The Word of God Himself, Highlights, what "He called" men to "BE" is "CONVERTED". *

Matt 13:15...Be converted
Matt 18:3.....Be converted
Mark 4:12.....Be converted
John 12:40....Be converted
Acts 3:19......Be converted
Acts 28:27....Be converted
Luke 22:32 (reference to they who ARE Converted)

For one to BE converted, (BE called Converted) is expressly accomplished BY the mans "unfettered"
WILL-ingness of Subjection TO the Lord God and Gods POWER.

WORKS of the "CONVERTED" man are Plainly Expressed...(what WORKS ARE, and what WORKS SHOULD (satisfactory to God) BE ACCOMPLISH) [/B]

1 Pet 4:
[12] Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

GOOD WORKS, of a man, Accomplishes Glorifying God.
* (Speaking Gods Word to men; Uplifting the lowly in spirit with Gods Word; Accrediting Gods Word, Works, Power unto God; Praying to God IN Thankfulness for His WORKS and Blessings IN you...etc.
* Mans Works "that are good", are always About "accrediting GOD", that ALL "good works" you DO....IS expressly accredited; BY, THROUGH, BECAUSE...OF GOD.

"GOOD" Works, OF a man, IS EXPRESSLY taught by the Word of God...IS FREE.
Any man "DOING GOOD WORKS" of God, "does so"... at HIS OWN EXPENSE...
* Time, Effort, Money, Cost....is expressly taught, TO BE the "burden...time, effort, money, cost" of the one "DOING GOOD WORKS ... to glorify God.

Charity, is mentioned nearly 30 times in the NT...(for anyone interested in the study of charity)

1 Cor 13:
gives us the "HIGHLIGHT"...of the Greatest "GOOD WORKS", a man can DO, to Glorify God....that the mans Works...to Glorify God....ALWAYS be "FREE" to the the "one" the man is "DOING" works toward.

1 Cor 13:
[13] And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity

NO CHARGE whatsoever, for men to Hear Gods Word, for men to uplift the poor in spirit, in faith, in hope; for men to feed the Word of God to men...

Would some say that a born again Christian need not pray, confess his sins (I realize that some believe they no longer sin)

* Never heard anyone say, any born again man, should not Pray.

WHEN I was STILL DEAD IN MY SINS (before being Converted)...
I absolutely (according to GODS WORD and WAY), Called out TO HIM, confessed MY SIN to HIM, asked HIM for forgiveness of MY SIN, confessed MY HEARTFUL BELIEF IN HIM and the one HE SENT, HE named JESUS...

And Absolutely, I believe and trust, HIS Word is TRUE, HE is FAITHFUL, HE accomplished IN ME, expressly WHAT HE PROMISED...
Forgave me my Sin Against HIM.
Converted me and MADE me in His Likeness.
(Restored as GOOD) (QUICKENED in spirit),
GAVE ME HIS SEED, BIRTHED my spirit of HIS SEED, making me, according TO HIS WAY, BORN OF GOD
Gave me Christ JESUS' glorified risen body as a dwelling place....UNTIL my own body is Raised in Glory (as He set apart and KEEPS my body called sanctified, as He set apart my body called justified to be risen by HIM, as He (with His LIGHT within me) Covered my darkness of sin, Sees it no more, Remembers it no more, and BY HIS POWER WITHIN ME...FOREVER KEEPS ME FREED FROM SIN, AGAINST HIM.

No, I do not continually Confess to God Over and Over and Over, SIN Against God, that God Himself has forgiven, covered, remembers no more.

No, I do not CONTINUE to SIN AGAINST GOD, (NOT believing IN HIM, wondering IF He is real, IF He exists, IF His Word exists, IF His Word is True....IF, IF, IF, wonderings of natural Unconverted men....Deny, Deny, Deny of natural mens thoughts and speech...ARE DEAD IN ME;
DIED the DAY, I FREELY and WILLFULLY agreed to BE Crucified WITH CHRIST and the Lord God BY HIS Offering and His POWER FORGAVE ME and FREED ME from the Curse of an Unconverted natural mans SIN Against God.

No, I (Born of Gods SEED) do not Continually ASK GOD for WHAT He ALREADY GAVE ME...
" AS IF WHAT HE GAVE ME, "FAILED", and I need to continually ASK Him over, and over and over...[/B] <--- utterly FALSE.

I John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he (born of God) cannot sin, because he is born of God.

If a man is saying, "he sins and Continues to Sin".... he is revealing, he has NOT received Gods Seed, and has NOT, become born of God.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Mungo]

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 2 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc..) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for those who trust in works for salvation to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

Paul's references to works are "works of the Law" not all works. See my post #6

 

[prism]

The apostles taught that obeying God's laws was necessary so that the people who properly live by them them can understand the mind of God and have His character ingrained in them.

Necessary for what? For salvation? How many works must you do to be saved?


Galatians 3:2 KJV
[2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


Galatians 3:10 KJV
[10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


Romans 3:21-22 KJV
[21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; [22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


I’d rather put my trust in Jesus who perfectly kept the law in my stead.

 

[Addy]

Necessary for what? For salvation? How many works must you do to be saved?

This question NEVER gets answered.... it's always Do good and Be good... but there is never a measure of how GOOD.

I find such comfort in the fact that I know and understand that there is NOTHING good within me... that my goodness comes from CHRIST and CHRIST ALONE... The fruit of LOVING CHRIST... and KNOWING that I have been purchased at such GREAT COST... is something that flows naturally from this CONTEMPLATION.

 

[prism]

But do we believe that things like prayer, repentance, confession of sins, believing, loving God with all your heart, loving your neighbor as yourself, love in general, reading your bible, having faith, seeking the Lord, do some believe that these things are considered works and are necessary to be righteous before our Savior?

We must learn to separate our half baked efforts at being righteous before God and Christ’s pure and unsullied perfection in pleasing His Father right up to His death.
We do those things that you mentioned because we have been saved out of thankfulness, not in order to gain God’s approval.

 

[Addy]

We must learn to separate our half baked efforts at being righteous before God and Christ’s pure and unsullied perfection in pleasing His Father right up to His death.
We do those things that you mentioned because we have been saved out of thankfulness, not in order to gain God’s approval.

YES... YES... and YES.... BLOOD SOAKED.... saturated in... covered with.... protected by... redeemed because of... and SAVED.

 

[Enoch111]

Actually it's people who believe that baptism with water does not gain salvation that are in the minority.

This is true. And in this case the majority are mistaken.

 

[Enoch111]

Works is that which man does in order to attain God's favor.

Not necessarily. Those who are saved by grace are required to do good works (Ephesians 2:10 and other passages) and to live righteously, soberly, and godly in this present world. No one is justified by works, and no one can maintain salvation by works. But that does not mean that Christians are not required and expected to do good works.

As James says: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

[mailmandan]

Paul's references to works are "works of the Law" not all works. See my post #6

Paul does not teach that we are saved by “these” works and just not “those” as works-salvationists teach. Se post #44 from the link below:

saved by faith alone

 

[Episkopos]

I think that many differences in theology are the results of Christians definition of WORKS. Some categorize works into two buckets. Those of the regenerated spirit and those that are physical outward works.

Why wouldn't works done through a regenerated spirit be not counted as physical outward works? Are spiritual works merely theoretical?

The reference of Paul to works are the works of the law which is Judaism. The difficulty in Paul's time wasn't that people were being too kind and helpful of others. The difference was that some of the Jews were trying to bring the new believers under the law of Moses.

People tend to read things into the text that aren't there.

Unless one espouses Gnosticism, where everything is abstract, the works of the Spirit are still outward works. We know they are of the Spirit because it is impossible for people to do those works without the power of the Spirit. Anything that is possible for a person to do rightly in righteousness. Anything that is done through the miraculous grace of God is according to a higher righteousness...that of God. Paul, and God for that matter, was not against a basic human righteousness. The enormity of the error in the preaching of the modern gospel is to seek to destroy one kind of righteousness to seemingly promote a higher kind whether true or imagine. But few believers indeed will ever know the walk that is according to God's righteousness.

BOTH kinds of righteousness are necessary and are to be encouraged. The one is good and the other is perfect. As we enter into Christ to walk in the holiness of God, we let go of our own efforts since we are dead in Christ. But that doesn't mean that we can forego on doing what is right when we are not walking at the level of that intimacy.

 

[mailmandan]

This question NEVER gets answered.... it's always Do good and Be good... but there is never a measure of how GOOD.

I find such comfort in the fact that I know and understand that there is NOTHING good within me... that my goodness comes from CHRIST and CHRIST ALONE... The fruit of LOVING CHRIST... and KNOWING that I have been purchased at such GREAT COST... is something that flows naturally from this CONTEMPLATION.

Good point. I have often asked works-salvationists how many works must they accomplish and “add” as a supplement to Christ’s finished work of redemption in order to “help” Christ save them, yet that question never gets answered. It’s as if God grades on a curve in their minds and all they can do is cross their fingers and hope they were “good enough” and receive a passing grade.