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Let's discuss..cessation after death?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Johann, Apr 23, 2022.

  1. BarneyFife

    BarneyFife Well-Known Member

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    Representations and phraseology, I'm not sure about.
    Remedial for everyone, indeed.
    Heaven would be a place of torture for the unrepentant rebels against God's government. They would find no peace there.
    Temporary. Not at all. Quite final.
    Sin and sinners gone

    I like this account. (link)
     
  2. BarneyFife

    BarneyFife Well-Known Member

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    It's quite ironic that the verse that all Christians know by heart is the same one that contains evidence contrary to something nearly all of them believe, isn't it?
     
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  3. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

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    I'll check out this link brother, my armor is bent and buckled yet there goeth I, by the grace and mercy of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.
    Even if I have to fight this battle alone, I do not believe in the annihilation of the soul.
    "where the worm dieth not..." most will say, yes, the worm can die..to be spiritually "dead" does not mean "cease to excist"
    I just pray you and I will not have our "intense moment of fellowship" and then, a great divide....
    Johann.
     
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  4. BarneyFife

    BarneyFife Well-Known Member

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    Now, you fellas behave and get along or I'll hafta run you in, see?
     
  5. BarneyFife

    BarneyFife Well-Known Member

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    I don't require anything of you, Brother.
    You're a free moral agent.
    Peace and love be unto you!
     
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  6. BarneyFife

    BarneyFife Well-Known Member

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    I like the influence you have brought to this community, Johann.

    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    It looks to me like whosoever believeth not, simply perish.

    Strong's Concordance
    apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
    Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: apollumi
    Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
    Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
    Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
    HELPS Word-studies
    622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

    622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

    [This is also the meaning of 622 /apóllymi dating back to Homer (900 bc.]

    NAS Exhaustive Concordance
    Word Origin
    from apo and same as olethros
    Definition
    to destroy, destroy utterly
    NASB Translation
    bring (1), destroy (17), destroyed (9), dying (1), end (1), killed (1), lose (10), loses (7), lost (14), passed away (1), perish (14), perishable (1), perished (4), perishes (1), perishing (6), put to death (1), ruined (3).
     
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  7. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Why do I think or believe as I do?

    I read nothing in the Bible that says to me that for the ones who missed the Way or went astray that there waits for them a torment which never ends. The dead are simply dead... and the dead know nothing.
     
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  8. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

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    That's the way my father believed Barney and I always was at odds with him...simply perish..guess I can "live" it up then for when I die I will be destroyed, no consequences.
    J.
     
  9. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

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    Guess you have skipped important verses then.
    J.
     
  10. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, total annihilation is... Biblical.

    Psalms 37
    9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
    10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.


    Ps 37:20
    20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

    KJV

    Ps 37:35-36
    35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
    36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

    KJV

    Ps 37:38
    38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
    KJV
     
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  11. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    People are dead in the eyes of God and what else matters? He provided the opportunity for Life through Jesus, but most people it seems are not interested in the real Life. They are quite content to immerse themselves in the death which they call life, which will end soon enough, and someone will shovel the dirt over their faces.
     
  12. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Don't need to read what men's Catholic doctrines says about that, God's Word already covered it. It is called the "second death" in Revelation 20...

    Rev 20:14
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    KJV


    The second death IS... the destruction of one's spirit and soul. And that is exactly what Jesus meant in Matthew 10:28 that one should fear Him Who can destroy both body (spirit body) and soul in geena (put for the future "lake of fire" event of Rev.20:14).
     
  13. BarneyFife

    BarneyFife Well-Known Member

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    Everyone who believeth not suffers exactly commensurate with their deeds in the flesh, my friend. God is not mocked. They simply perish at the end of their just reward. God is just and merciful. :):):)
     
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  14. BarneyFife

    BarneyFife Well-Known Member

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  15. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    If you are looking for some man's name, I do not have one. I have believed it was right for many years as per the Bible and as per God.

    I put together the following verses in 2009:

    "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely DIE." Gen 2:17

    "For the wages of sin is DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom 6:23

    "He preserveth not the life of the wicked: " Job 36:6

    "And unto this people thou shalt say, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of DEATH." Jerem 21:8

    "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall DIE." Ezek 18:4

    "For as in Adam all DIE, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." I Cor 15:22

    "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so DEATH passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Rom 5:12

    "For the preaching of the cross is to them that PERISH foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.' I Cor 1:18

    "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell." Matt 10:28

    "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should PERISH, but that all should come to repentance." II Pet 3:9

    ""For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not PERISH, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

    If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." I Cor 3:17

    "For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:Whose end is DESTRUCTION, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)" Phil 3:18-19

    "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap CORRUPTION; " Gal 6:8

    "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will BURN UP the chaff with unquenchable fire." Matt 3:12

    "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall BURN THEM UP" Mal 4:1

    "The earth opened and swallowed up Dathan, and covered the company of Abiram.And a fire was kindled in their company; the flame BURNED UP the wicked." Psalm 106:17-18

    "Who shall be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" II Thess 1:9

    The following few verses raise the point you support for an 'eternal torment'

    "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment..." Matt 25:46

    If the punishment is the wrath of God, well He never changes and yes, He does last forever. He does not mean that those punished last forever.

    "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Rev 20:10

    This says that the beast and the false prophet will be tormented forever, but it says nothing about every wicked man.

    "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." Rev 14:11

    When someone is 'burned up' the smoke rises after the burned one is gone. He has no rest, because he did not have Jesus or the real Life that comes from God alone.

    "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
    For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
    Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief" Heb 4:9-11

    Worms: are they man's soul or man's destroyer?

    "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." Isa 66:24

    "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Mark 9:43-44

    "Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee." Isa 14:11

    "For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation." Isa 51:8

    "Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned.The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree." Job 24:19-20

    There is much more, but the point is: Why do so many verses mention Die, Death, Destruction, Perish, etc. as the punishment if it is in fact eternal torment?
     
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  16. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

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    Oh yes, it does.
     
  17. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Skipped? I have been reading the whole of the Bible through repeatedly since I read it for the first time in 1976 in English. Beginning in 1978 with my first German and Spanish Bibles in hand, I began reading it through in those languages as well. My reading continues through the current day, 7 days a week. I take no days off from God. I have not skipped a word!
     
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  18. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

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    Wonder why Jesus Christ Himself mentioned it...guess we need to ask God to re-write the archaic scriptures, I mean, after all, God is loving, all loving...forgetting that He is a just and Holy God?
    J.:)
     
  19. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    I will not argue the point with you. You are where you are. You have presented nothing that I have not already heard or read before. I read the Bible and talk to and listen to God.

    I don't increase or decrease or change the beliefs or knowledge of others unless God is using me to do it.

    "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov. 21:2

    "For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
    Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
    I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
    So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:4-7

     
  20. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Eisegesis or hermeneutics or human logic is not going find anything good even in a man's Bible studies unless God is in the search and in the finding. I won't even try to use such things alone to argue a point unless God, the only good One, leads me that way. Very simply again:
    "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26
     
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