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Let's discuss..cessation after death?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Johann, Apr 23, 2022.

  1. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Yes, we are all fallible, including me. I have made lots of mistakes, and it would not surprise me if I were to make more mistakes in my remaining time as a man of flesh.

    This is why I keep seeking the kingdom of God and His righteousness. This is why I keep returning to the lowest room and allowing God to change me or lift me up again... if it is His will to do so.

    Many years ago when I was pushing to learn the Bible so well that I might somehow qualify for a translation like Enoch of old, I backslid instead. Ten years later God had mercy and allowed me to come back to Him. I had been striving along the wrong pathway. Since then [2002] I have made mistakes, but not that one... not again!
     
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  2. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

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    Peace to you and family Amadeus
    Johann.
     
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  3. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Physical age has little do with it. But... when you say someone else is definitely wrong, you had best know that you are definitely right before you open your mouth to say so.

    What I believe is that believers, who have not yet overcome completely like Jesus did, have a mixture of belief and knowledge, but they do not know which ones are which. Each person, of course, [including you and me] believes he is right and that those that disagree with him are wrong. Only God really knows. With whom does He share His knowledge?

    Quenching the Spirit of God in us causes the problem. Everyone who has not completely and finally overcome as Jesus did, does it... quenches the Spirit that is.
     
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  4. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Be blessed in God my friend!
     
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  5. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Thank you! Peace to you as well!
     
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  6. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

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    I fully concur Amadeus.
     
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  7. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, you pretty much are saying his doctrines are wrong, just by bringing that matter up!

    And you never will counter the Psalms 37 Scripture that I quoted about the complete destruction of the wicked in final.

    And because you also quote Scripture about the wicked still in Hades, and confuse it with the future "lake of fire" destruction, that shows you are lacking in Bible study about both.
     
  8. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I lack in Bible study, how 'bout you?
     
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  9. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Searching the Scriptures includes "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" or properly interpreting the Truth according to what Christ has said, not according to what an unregenerated man (one who is "under the sun") has postulated.

    What is the context of the misleading thought that "the dead know nothing" (Eccl 9:5)? Ecclesiastes shows us the false notions of those who are not in Christ.

    DOES CHRIST SAY THIS OR DOES HE GIVE REAL MEANING TO LIFE?
    Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

    WERE THE DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESURRECTION OF CHRIST SOMETHING "NEW" UNDER THE SUN?
    The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

    WHEN A SINNER IS CONVERTED, IS THE "CROOKED" MADE "STRAIGHT"?
    That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.

    As we can see Ecclesiastes has nothing to do with Gospel truth, but has everything to do with revealing the mindset of the unsaved. The Bible is perfectly clear that souls and spirits are imperishable, and upon death those who are saved go to Heaven immediately, whereas those who are not saved go to Hades to await their final judgment.
     
  10. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

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    And what happens then, I mean those who are not saved? Are they going to be annihilated?
     
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  11. BarneyFife

    BarneyFife Well-Known Member

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    "Primary" is the key word in the sentence:

    "The prospect of final punishment was never meant to be the primary motive for loving God with all the strength, heart, and mind."

    I have no desire to see Scripture rewritten. Did I give you that impression?
     
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  12. BarneyFife

    BarneyFife Well-Known Member

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    The subject will not go away. Someone will start another thread on it (not very likely me). We have quite a cycle going here at CB. :)

    I've noticed the proponents of eternal torment are very uncomfortable discussing it.

    I don't understand why. It almost seems like the very foundation of some folks' faith altogether.

    We have a member whose signature simply reads:

    Quite sad, actually
     
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  13. BarneyFife

    BarneyFife Well-Known Member

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    I'm just here for the love, J. :D
     
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  14. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

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    Annihilationism - Wikipedia

    Interesting read Barney...
     
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  15. The Disciple John

    The Disciple John Active Member

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    When you are awake, please respond to this.
    The angel told John... And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Revelation 20:14
    Are you saying, by your own logic, that hell - a place of torment, will be cast into a place of torment, that it might be tormented?
    Do you really believe that death will be cast into a place of torment?

    Think about it Johann.
    If we accept the angel's explanation on the symbolism, our understanding would be in line with God's word.
    On the other hand, if we lean on our own understanding, we will be thinking man's thoughts and not God's'

    Jesus drew Peter's attention to where those thoughts really come from.
    Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

    We really want to be careful, to let go of how we feel about something, and be guided by God's word, and spirit.
    The Lake of Fire symbolizes the second death.
    Death is a state. Second mean the one after the first.
    The second death is the final one, and thus is everlasting destruction.
    Death and the grave of mankind will be gone forever - final.

    It's the last enemy God will permanently remove.
    1 Corinthians 15:25-26
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

    Let's really discuss this. Okay?
    Do you agree with God's angel, that the Lake of Fire is the second death?
    What is death?
    If the Lake of Fire is symbolic, then wouldn't you consider that the torment is symbolic; the smoke is symbolic?

    Let's discuss. Please.
     
  16. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

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    Johann said:
    So, if I understand you correct, since there is no fear then after death but just being "comatized" for eternity I can live it up in this kosmou, eat, drink and be merry, no consequences..and die?[/QUOTE\]

    A true Christian has a reverential fear of the true God YHWH, not a morbid fear of him.
    The true Christian lives his/her life according to how the true God YHWH says we should live our lives in his word and because of the love and faith they have for the true God, not because they morbidly fear him.
    The true Christian believes what Romans 6:23 says, which is that the punishment for sin is death. So when a person dies he/she has paid the price for every sin they did before they died.
    The only hope a person has when he/she dies is that God has judged that person who has died worthy of a resurrection. If the true God YHWH judges a person not worthy of a resurrection then that person remains dead for eternity. So a true Christian knows that those who truly love the true God YHWH and exercises faith will get eternal life. A person who is living in this world if he/she is a true Christian they don't live any way they want to, instead they live their lives by exercising faith in God because of the love they have for him and are obedient to his word which shows us what kind of person YHWH God wants us to be. A true Christian is obedient and strives to be the kind of person God wants them to be because of the love they have for the true God, so for that reason they don't want to bring any reproach upon the true God's name or cause the scriptures to be evil spoken of. That's how much a true Christian should love.
    To clarify, a true Christian doesn't live his/her life morbidly fearing the true God, but instead they live their lives the way the scriptures say they should live their lives because of the love they have for the true God. Anyone who lives their lives for God because they think they will go to some fiery torment place if they don't, are morbidly fearing the true God, instead of living for God because of the love they supposed to have for him. Only unrighteous or unfaithful people morbidly fear God like that, not the faithful not the righteous, not those who truly love the true God.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2022
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  17. BarneyFife

    BarneyFife Well-Known Member

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    I know—I've read it.



    I don't think I'd win Class President, either. And who cares, anyway? I hear Jesus was very unpopular here.



    You know, I didn't care for it that much at first (it's not his best look), but it's really starting to grow on me.
     
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  18. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    To await "final judgment" automatically implies NO ANNIHILATION. And just one passage of Scripture (which are the words of Christ) should make this perfectly clear (to those who are not willfully blind):

    MARK 9: CHRIST SAYS: ETERNAL DAMNATION FOR THE LOST
    42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
    43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell [Gehenna], into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell [Gehenna], into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell [Gehenna] fire:
    48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

    Some questions for the naysayers with answers:
    1. Did Christ create the Lake of Fire (Hell = Gehenna) for the Devil and his angels? Absolutely
    2. Does Christ know that unquenchable fire = eternal torment? Absolutely
    3. Is the metaphor of the "worm" a depiction of eternal torment? Absolutely
    4. Will the Devil, the Beast, and the False Prophet be tormented eternally? Absolutely (Rev 20:10)
    5. Does that mean that anyone in Hell will also be tormented eternally? Absolutely
    6. Has Christ commanded that the Gospel be preached in all the world and to every creature so that no one need go to Hell? Absolutely
     
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  19. BarneyFife

    BarneyFife Well-Known Member

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    Just one passage of Scripture rarely makes anything perfectly clear—that's just sound hermeneutics.
    In Mark 9:43-48 Christ quite evidently refers to the same judgment fires as those described in Isaiah 66:24, where we read: "They [the righteous] shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." We are told in so many words that the agencies of "worm" and "fire" are working, not upon disembodied spirits, but upon bodies, dead bodies.

    The word "hell" used in Mark 9:43-48 is from the Greek word Gehenna. This term is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word Hinnom, the name of a valley near Jerusalem, used as a place to cast carcasses of animals and malefactors, which were consumed by fire constantly kept up." (See Liddell and Scott's Greek Lexicon.)

    Christ here uses this Valley of Hinnom to teach His hearers the fate that awaits the wicked. Certainly the Jews who heard His words could not possibly have obtained any idea of wicked, disembodied souls endlessly suffering. They saw in Hinnom dead bodies being devoured by flames, or if the flames did not reach them, then by worms, those ever-present agents of destruction and disintegration. The fact that the fires of Gehenna were ever kept burning, were "not quenched," was the surest proof that whatever was cast into them would be entirely consumed. To declare that if a fire keeps ever burning, then whatever is cast into it keeps ever living, is to go contrary both to the evidence of our senses and to the testimony of Scripture.

    The question may now be asked: If whatever is cast into this fire is completely consumed, why will the fire always be kept burning? The answer is, It will not.

    It is this natural sense of the word "quench" that we find used in the Bible. The Lord through Jeremiah declared to the ancient Jews, "If you will not hearken unto me.... then will 1 kindle a fire in the gates thereof [of Jerusalem], and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched." Jeremiah 17:27. (In the Septuagint the very same Greek root is here used for "quenched" as in Mark 9.) In 2 Chronicles 36:19-21 we read of the literal fulfillment of this prophecy when the Babylonians put the torch to the city. Is that fire still burning? Are those Jewish "palaces" ever consuming, but never quite consumed? How preposterous, you say. Then why should anyone wish to take Christ's statement in Mark 9 and force from it the conclusion that the judgment fire will never end; and then build upon this the conclusion that the wicked will ever be consuming, but never quite consumed; and then finally rear upon this the conclusion that therefore the wicked have immortal souls?

    The Bible nowhere says that souls are immortal, but declares that "the soul that sins, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4. The Bible nowhere says that the wicked will ever be consuming; instead, it declares that they will become "ashes." Malachi 4:3. The Bible does not say that the judgment fires will burn endlessly, for we read that these fires are due to God's setting ablaze this wicked earth, and that following this conflagration He creates a new earth." (See 2 Peter 3:7-13 and Revelation 20 and Revelation 21.) There must therefore be an end to the fire, else this earth could not he re-created. In other words, the very promise of God to give us a new earth wherein dwells righteousness is contingent upon there being an end to the judgment fires.
     
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  20. The Disciple John

    The Disciple John Active Member

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    Are you saying Ecclesiastes does not belong in the Bible, and is not inspired by God?
    If so, on what authority do you say this?
    False notions do come from those who are not in Christ... but make up apostate Christianity, which is about 99.9% of all "Christian" "churches".

    What Solomon meant here is explained to the reader that does more than just a superficial reading, or just picks out lines of text, without considering the context.

    Everything is indeed vanity.
    The Congregator's words are indeed, in harmony with truth in God's word.
    For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope. Romans 8:20
    Is Paul also not in Christ?
    What about David? Is he too a false messenger? Psalms 39:5; Psalms 144:4

    Ecclesiastes 1:12-15
    13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
    14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
    15 That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.

    How rightfully he spoke... all in line with the truth of all the scriptures.

    After pointing out the futility that he himself saw, and which we ourselves see, and experience, Solomon concluded with many more words of wisdom.
    Chapter 11
    1 Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days.
    5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.
    6 In the morning sow thy seed, and in the evening withhold not thine hand: for thou knowest not whether shall prosper, either this or that, or whether they both shall be alike good.
    7 Truly the light is sweet, and a pleasant thing it is for the eyes to behold the sun:
    9 Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment.
    10 Therefore remove sorrow from thy heart, and put away evil from thy flesh: for childhood and youth are vanity.

    Chapter 12
    1 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;
    8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.
    9 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.
    10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
    11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
    12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
    13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
    14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

    The Congregator showed that the wise course in life is to seek God, and fear and obey him, because besides this, everything is vanity, and striving after wind.
    These wise words were inspired by God, and preserved by him, so that we might read them, and benefit from divine wisdom.

    No. We do not see that. People who don't like scriptures that prove their ideas false, see that, because anything in the Bible that contradicts false beliefs, they find fault with.
    Either they say it doesn't belong there, or the writer was ignorant, an unbeliever, or just plain false.
    Some have called Paul, an anti-Christ. Imagine that... because Paul's writings contradict their twisting of scriptures.

    It's hurtful to me when I hear such persons, honestly.
    Though Jesus did warn of the false prophets, and Paul warned of those that would turn away from the truth, and teach false doctrines - apostasize, it hurts really bad, to see what such wicked men are doing to God's word.

    It's true some have been misled by Satan, since they belong to his 'church', but I believe if they sincerely and humbly search for God, they will get out of false religion.
     
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