Letter of the Law vs. Spirit of the Law

[Mink57]

Hi Everyone,

Since I'm feeling a bit..."inspired", I thought I would take it upon a suggestion from another thread, that perhaps a thread about this subject is due.

I'm not trying to 'lead' this thread, but to put thoughts 'out there', that may make for a decent discussion.

I was a paralegal for a number of years. Yes, a Christian, to boot. And I can say, honestly, that my legal training actually helped me, in my spiritual journey.

We are already aware, that secular laws are mostly made up of statutes. Those statutes are not so much about what we should do, but what will happen if we don't do 'it'. "Thou shall not travel more than 75 miles per hour on an interstate highway" is not a statute. What IS a statute is to say that, "If you DO travel more than 75 miles per hour on an interstate highway, the penalty will be 6 months in jail, losing your license and a $1000 dollar fine, for a first offense."

But does that mean that EVERY time, ANYONE who travels more than 75 miles an hour on an interstate highway, WILL or SHOULD go to jail for 6 months, lose their license and get a $1000 dollar fine?

According to the Pharisees, yes. After all, that person broke the law!

But Jesus, didn't seem to see it the same way. After all, there are exceptions to the law.

Apparenty, there is punishment in breaking the law. But I think that Jesus taught us...or at least, tried to do so....that there is also mercy woven into it. And wisdom...and discernment...

After all, if I was traveling at 80 mpg, because my child was in the back seat, choking on a chicken bone...and I was trying to get to a hospital...does the law REALLY apply in that matter?

The less merciful ones, would say 'yes'. Would Jesus?

How can we read the bible, without thinking about any of this?

Thoughts?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hi Everyone,

Since I'm feeling a bit..."inspired", I thought I would take it upon a suggestion from another thread, that perhaps a thread about this subject is due.

I'm not trying to 'lead' this thread, but to put thoughts 'out there', that may make for a decent discussion.

I was a paralegal for a number of years. Yes, a Christian, to boot. And I can say, honestly, that my legal training actually helped me, in my spiritual journey.

We are already aware, that secular laws are mostly made up of statutes. Those statutes are not so much about what we should do, but what will happen if we don't do 'it'. "Thou shall not travel more than 75 miles per hour on an interstate highway" is not a statute. What IS a statute is to say that, "If you DO travel more than 75 miles per hour on an interstate highway, the penalty will be 6 months in jail, losing your license and a $1000 dollar fine, for a first offense."

But does that mean that EVERY time, ANYONE who travels more than 75 miles an hour on an interstate highway, WILL or SHOULD go to jail for 6 months, lose their license and get a $1000 dollar fine?

According to the Pharisees, yes. After all, that person broke the law!

But Jesus, didn't seem to see it the same way. After all, there are exceptions to the law.

Apparenty, there is punishment in breaking the law. But I think that Jesus taught us...or at least, tried to do so....that there is also mercy woven into it. And wisdom...and discernment...

How insightful!

One of the more intelligent posts I've read in some time. This in fact applies to Christian teachings as well, and in ways many don't seem nuanced enough in their thinking to comprehend. I posted on one such instance before being directed here:
Submission Of The Wife: How Serious A Matter Is It?

Interesting you should connect such a mindset with being a paralegal. The leaders in Israel were not just kings and rulers, they were judges as well. This is why the case of the two woman who both claimed the child was theirs was brought before Solomon. In fact, before the times of kings in Israel the judges actually WERE the ruling leaders, hence the Book of Judges.

But what's interesting is that the Jews knew the intricacies of judgment, so what they would do as a custom was to actually sit around and discuss all the various situations that could occur which might alter the outcome of a judgment, much like trial lawyers study law to this day, citing "Simpson Vs. Lewis" or some other case that set a new precedent and brought about an alteration in the way a certain issue was adjudicated.

The trouble was, in the process of "thinking things out," the Jewish leadership started adding determinations to the law which God had never included, and eventually had them washing like crazy and tithing mint and cumin, and getting ultra-strict, laying burdens on others that were just ridiculous to keep. Jesus called these "the commandments of men."

The church - and individual Christians - sometimes do similar things, such as we have been discussing with teachings on "submission." In some circles they turn it into a teaching that woman are practically second-class citizens, such as takes place in Muslim countries. That is NOT Christianity IMO. It is a failure to THINK and weight the nuances of various matters, and what it means to truly be a representative of the Lord Jesus Christ in a marriage.

And they said there wasn't much talk about a man's responsibility in marriage, LoL : )

If you wish to discuss some specific nuances that should rightly be applied to the letter of the law so it doesn't become abusive, feel free. I know there are a lot of them, I just can't think of any others atm.

God bless, and good post.
- H

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Hi Everyone,

Since I'm feeling a bit..."inspired", I thought I would take it upon a suggestion from another thread, that perhaps a thread about this subject is due.

I'm not trying to 'lead' this thread, but to put thoughts 'out there', that may make for a decent discussion.

I was a paralegal for a number of years. Yes, a Christian, to boot. And I can say, honestly, that my legal training actually helped me, in my spiritual journey.

We are already aware, that secular laws are mostly made up of statutes. Those statutes are not so much about what we should do, but what will happen if we don't do 'it'. "Thou shall not travel more than 75 miles per hour on an interstate highway" is not a statute. What IS a statute is to say that, "If you DO travel more than 75 miles per hour on an interstate highway, the penalty will be 6 months in jail, losing your license and a $1000 dollar fine, for a first offense."

But does that mean that EVERY time, ANYONE who travels more than 75 miles an hour on an interstate highway, WILL or SHOULD go to jail for 6 months, lose their license and get a $1000 dollar fine?

According to the Pharisees, yes. After all, that person broke the law!

But Jesus, didn't seem to see it the same way. After all, there are exceptions to the law.

Apparenty, there is punishment in breaking the law. But I think that Jesus taught us...or at least, tried to do so....that there is also mercy woven into it. And wisdom...and discernment...

After all, if I was traveling at 80 mpg, because my child was in the back seat, choking on a chicken bone...and I was trying to get to a hospital...does the law REALLY apply in that matter?

The less merciful ones, would say 'yes'. Would Jesus?

How can we read the bible, without thinking about any of this?

Thoughts?

To God, it’s all about what you are doing in your heart, what your hearts motive was and is.
To men, it’s all about what you are doing on the outside.

 

[Hidden In Him]

To God, it’s all about what you are doing in your heart, what your hearts motive was and is.
To men, it’s all about what you are doing on the outside.

Amen. And to those led by the Spirit, (as she said who have discernment), they will not judge by appearances but judge righteous judgment, in keeping with the commandment of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Mink57]

How insightful!

One of the more intelligent posts I've read in some time. This in fact applies to Christian teachings as well, and in ways many don't seem nuanced enough in their thinking to comprehend. I posted on one such instance before being directed here:
Submission Of The Wife: How Serious A Matter Is It?

Interesting you should connect such a mindset with being a paralegal. The leaders in Israel were not just kings and rulers, they were judges as well. This is why the case of the two woman who both claimed the child was theirs was brought before Solomon. In fact, before the times of kings in Israel the judges actually WERE the ruling leaders, hence the Book of Judges.

First of all, thank you for the compliments! And...onward!

I agree with you, as to kings often being judges. Depending on where you lived in those times, the king was often judge, jury and ruler. PLUS, kingship was believed to be handed down from God Himself. What a combination...

But what's interesting is that the Jews knew the intricacies of judgment, so what they would do as a custom was to actually sit around and discuss all the various situations that could occur which might alter the outcome of a judgment, much like trial lawyers study law to this day, citing "Simpson Vs. Lewis" or some other case that set a new precedent and brought about an alteration in the way a certain issue was adjudicated.

Exactly. What they were mostly talking about was case law. That is, how to apply a certain statute in certain situations. If the highest law in the land is to "love one another", an example of case law would be the parable of the Good Samaritan.

The trouble was, in the process of "thinking things out," the Jewish leadership started adding determinations to the law which God had never included, and eventually had them washing like crazy and tithing mint and cumin, and getting ultra-strict, laying burdens on others that were just ridiculous to keep. Jesus called these "the commandments of men."

LOL! Reminds me of the Catholic Church (I'm Catholic)! Sometimes, the leaders (and even some parishioners) seem more concerned with whether or not one eats meat on Friday than how they're treating their spouse! More concerned with their Traditions than what Christ taught...or taking what Christ taught, and expanding it into unknown territory, that gets to the point of being "ridiculous", as you wrote!

The church - and individual Christians - sometimes do similar things, such as we have been discussing with teachings on "submission." In some circles they turn it into a teaching that woman are practically second-class citizens, such as takes place in Muslim countries. That is NOT Christianity IMO. It is a failure to THINK and weight the nuances of various matters, and what it means to truly be a representative of the Lord Jesus Christ in a marriage.

And they said there wasn't much talk about a man's responsibility in marriage, LoL : )

If you wish to discuss some specific nuances that should rightly be applied to the letter of the law so it doesn't become abusive, feel free. I know there are a lot of them, I just can't think of any others atm.

God bless, and good post.
- H

Well, you and I both know that a man has responsibilities in marriage. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be talked about nearly as much as a woman's responsibility to "submit."

Sure. Would LOVE to discuss the nuances!

How insightful!

One of the more intelligent posts I've read in some time. This in fact applies to Christian teachings as well, and in ways many don't seem nuanced enough in their thinking to comprehend. I posted on one such instance before being directed here:
Submission Of The Wife: How Serious A Matter Is It?

Interesting you should connect such a mindset with being a paralegal. The leaders in Israel were not just kings and rulers, they were judges as well. This is why the case of the two woman who both claimed the child was theirs was brought before Solomon. In fact, before the times of kings in Israel the judges actually WERE the ruling leaders, hence the Book of Judges.

But what's interesting is that the Jews knew the intricacies of judgment, so what they would do as a custom was to actually sit around and discuss all the various situations that could occur which might alter the outcome of a judgment, much like trial lawyers study law to this day, citing "Simpson Vs. Lewis" or some other case that set a new precedent and brought about an alteration in the way a certain issue was adjudicated.

The trouble was, in the process of "thinking things out," the Jewish leadership started adding determinations to the law which God had never included, and eventually had them washing like crazy and tithing mint and cumin, and getting ultra-strict, laying burdens on others that were just ridiculous to keep. Jesus called these "the commandments of men."

The church - and individual Christians - sometimes do similar things, such as we have been discussing with teachings on "submission." In some circles they turn it into a teaching that woman are practically second-class citizens, such as takes place in Muslim countries. That is NOT Christianity IMO. It is a failure to THINK and weight the nuances of various matters, and what it means to truly be a representative of the Lord Jesus Christ in a marriage.

And they said there wasn't much talk about a man's responsibility in marriage, LoL : )

If you wish to discuss some specific nuances that should rightly be applied to the letter of the law so it doesn't become abusive, feel free. I know there are a lot of them, I just can't think of any others atm.

God bless, and good post.
- H

 

[Mink57]

Amen. And to those led by the Spirit, (as she said who have discernment), they will not judge by appearances but judge righteous judgment, in keeping with the commandment of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The difference to me, between the letter and the spirit, is that the letter is more about punishment...whereas, the spirit is more about mercy.

Make sense?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Hmm…I didn’t expect this was the way the thread would go. Not complaining, just much different direction than I saw it going.

 

[Hidden In Him]

LOL! Reminds me of the Catholic Church (I'm Catholic)! Sometimes, the leaders (and even some parishioners) seem more concerned with whether or not one eats meat on Friday than how they're treating their spouse! More concerned with their Traditions than what Christ taught...or taking what Christ taught, and expanding it into unknown territory, that gets to the point of being "ridiculous", as you wrote!

Yeah, that's correct, and it is pretty much across the board in Christianity unfortunately : )

I remember studying the book of James and realizing when he referenced peering into the word like into a mirror and not walking away that he was talking about applying the golden rule to EVERY instance in life continually, which seemed a daunting task at the time because I hardly ever hear it preached anywhere. We focus on a million other things instead, like straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Reminds me of that thing about just memorizing a REAL $100 bill. Then you don't have to memorize 3,000 different counterfeits instead.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The difference to me, between the letter and the spirit, is that the letter is more about punishment...whereas, the spirit is more about mercy.

Make sense?

Kinda, yeah. To me, the letter is just unyielding and unmerciful, in that it does not take into account the intentions of the heart, or the nuances in a person's thought processes or motivations.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

To me, the spirit of the law is more exacting.
I’ve never physically murdered anyone but I’ve murdered them in anger, in spirit. So I’ve kept the letter of that law all my life but not the spirit of it.

 

[Mink57]

Kinda, yeah. To me, the letter is just unyielding and unmerciful, in that it does not take into account the intentions of the heart, or the nuances in a person's thought processes or motivations.

Exactly.

Not only that, but some people don't even read the letter correctly. Just as an example, some people might read that last sentence as, "some people don't even read the letter..." and leave off the "correctly" part...which of course changes the whole meaning of the sentence.

A dangerous thing, especially when it comes to law.

 

[Mink57]

To me, the spirit of the law is more exacting.
I’ve never physically murdered anyone but I’ve murdered them in anger, in spirit. So I’ve kept the letter of that law all my life but not the spirit of it.

Interesting. To me, the spirit is more lenient and forgiving. It's the letter that's more exacting.

I see the spirit of the law in operation when Jesus and his Apostles were walking through the field of wheat on the Sabbath. They were accused of breaking the Sabbath by "working", when they picked at the heads of the wheat. But because of the situation, Jesus had no issue with the Apostles "working" on the Sabbath.

So, when God said that we should 'keep the Sabbath' and 'do no work on the Sabbath', did He mean ABSOLUTELY? Were there ANY exceptions? Apparently, in Jesus mind, yes. But in the minds of the Pharisees, the answer is 'no'. PERIOD. Jesus was going by the spirit. The Pharisees were going by the letter.

 

[Mink57]

To me, the spirit of the law is more exacting.
I’ve never physically murdered anyone but I’ve murdered them in anger, in spirit. So I’ve kept the letter of that law all my life but not the spirit of it.

Interesting. To me, the spirit is more lenient and forgiving. It's the letter that's more exacting.

I see the spirit of the law in operation when Jesus and his Apostles were walking through the field of wheat on the Sabbath. They were accused of breaking the Sabbath by "working", when they picked at the heads of the wheat. But because of the situation, Jesus had no issue with the Apostles "working" on the Sabbath.

So, when God said that we should 'keep the Sabbath' and 'do no work on the Sabbath', did He mean ABSOLUTELY? Were there ANY exceptions? Apparently, in Jesus mind, yes. But in the minds of the Pharisees, the answer is 'no'. PERIOD. Jesus was going by the spirit. The Pharisees were going by the letter.

 

[Mink57]

Yeah, that's correct, and it is pretty much across the board in Christianity unfortunately : )

I remember studying the book of James and realizing when he referenced peering into the word like into a mirror and not walking away that he was talking about applying the golden rule to EVERY instance in life continually, which seemed a daunting task at the time because I hardly ever hear it preached anywhere. We focus on a million other things instead, like straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Reminds me of that thing about just memorizing a REAL $100 bill. Then you don't have to memorize 3,000 different counterfeits instead.

Yes! I've told other people (a.k.a., atheists, LOL!) something similar.

There are really only a few Commandments for us to remember. Love God. Love others. Of course, HOW we show God we love Him, and HOW we show others we love them is a different story! The Golden Rule is a GREAT way to do this!

If EVERYONE followed those few Commandments, we wouldn't need the 100's of thousands of secular laws!

Would put the lawyers right out of business! (as a paralegal, I loved working with the law...but despised working with lawyers!)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Interesting. To me, the spirit is more lenient and forgiving. It's the letter that's more exacting.

I can’t fathom how you see it like that…if the spirit of the law to not murder is to not have angry resentment and seethings inside.
The letter says do not choke, shoot, or bludgeon anyone to death.
The spirit says anger is to have already murdered, even IF the anger does not proceed to literal choking or bludgeoning.
Is it harder or more impossible for you not to shoot someone than it is for you to not even have anger?

 

[Heart2Soul]

Hi Everyone,

Since I'm feeling a bit..."inspired", I thought I would take it upon a suggestion from another thread, that perhaps a thread about this subject is due.

I'm not trying to 'lead' this thread, but to put thoughts 'out there', that may make for a decent discussion.

I was a paralegal for a number of years. Yes, a Christian, to boot. And I can say, honestly, that my legal training actually helped me, in my spiritual journey.

We are already aware, that secular laws are mostly made up of statutes. Those statutes are not so much about what we should do, but what will happen if we don't do 'it'. "Thou shall not travel more than 75 miles per hour on an interstate highway" is not a statute. What IS a statute is to say that, "If you DO travel more than 75 miles per hour on an interstate highway, the penalty will be 6 months in jail, losing your license and a $1000 dollar fine, for a first offense."

But does that mean that EVERY time, ANYONE who travels more than 75 miles an hour on an interstate highway, WILL or SHOULD go to jail for 6 months, lose their license and get a $1000 dollar fine?

According to the Pharisees, yes. After all, that person broke the law!

But Jesus, didn't seem to see it the same way. After all, there are exceptions to the law.

Apparenty, there is punishment in breaking the law. But I think that Jesus taught us...or at least, tried to do so....that there is also mercy woven into it. And wisdom...and discernment...

After all, if I was traveling at 80 mpg, because my child was in the back seat, choking on a chicken bone...and I was trying to get to a hospital...does the law REALLY apply in that matter?

The less merciful ones, would say 'yes'. Would Jesus?

How can we read the bible, without thinking about any of this?

Thoughts?

Jesus gave us 2 commandments..
Matthew 22:37-40 ...'Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Jesus is teaching us that obedience does not lead us to love but rather Love leads us to be obedient to God's Laws/10 Commandments.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I can’t fathom how you see it like that…if the spirit of the law to not murder is to not have angry resentment and seethings inside.
The letter says do not choke, shoot, or bludgeon anyone to death.
The spirit says anger is to have already murdered, even IF the anger does not proceed to literal choking or bludgeoning.
Is it harder or more impossible for you not to shoot someone than it is for you to not even have anger?

I think she's approaching it from the perspective of how much more lenient it is where judgment upon others is concerned.

You are approaching it from the perspective of how much more demanding it is upon one's own personal conscience and behavior.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think she's approaching it from the perspective of how much more lenient it is where judgment upon others is concerned.

You mean because of forgiveness of sins?
I’m not trying to be dense, I think I just am dense.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Apparenty, there is punishment in breaking the law. But I think that Jesus taught us...or at least, tried to do so....that there is also mercy woven into it. And wisdom...and discernment...

Mercy in regard to law breaking is the prerequisite of the judge. As in your illustration of speeding with a sick child. You are breaking the law, in your sight for a good reason, but we do not have the authority to make that decision.
You might get safely to hospital, with a mass of speeding tickets, which if taken to court a judge would rule on them or one accepts it and pays the fines etc.

For us the law, the OT ceremonial and moral laws do not apply to us. We have been shown mercy and grace towards our breaking of the law.

So we should live appropriately.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Eh…I’m out of here. I’m not going to understand how others think about it. Maybe I’m not supposed to.