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Life and Death? Abortion too?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by amadeus, Aug 25, 2019.

  1. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Life and Abortion Part I

    On another thread people were talking about abortions and life, but it had gone off on a tangent from the topic of the OP regarding the writer of Hebrews.

    Just what exactly is Life to men and what is it to God? To believers, I believe, who understand, Life is what Jesus brought. It is also what God gave to Adam and Eve back in Genesis:

    "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen 2:7

    But then...

    "...of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17

    "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." Gen 3:6

    So no matter anyone says, if God speaks the truth always then according to His words in Gen 2:17, Adam and Eve died. In Gen 2:7 man was a "living soul" , but he and Eve killed themselves by their disobedience. No more Life.

    Jesus was sent to make a change in this possible:

    "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

    They were all dead until that Life became available to them. That is you and that is me.


    "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

    For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." I Cor 15:21-22

    "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." I Cor 15:45

    Every man born of woman was born to dead parents and therefore was dead from his beginning, at least to God. Men I guess see it differently because they can walk around and talk and do this or that or some other thing... or at least so it seems to them as their five natural, carnal senses and brain figure it.

    Jesus agrees with God about this being dead thing. He brought Life so He should know:


    "And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

    But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:21-22

    So after Adam's disobedience and until Jesus brought Life there was no Life... only death. Right?

    So this means there is no such thing as murder, right? Can we kill someone who is already dead? If this is how it is, then why did God bother to write commandments in stone for Moses and the natural children of Israel... including?


    "You shall not murder." Ex 20:13

    Jesus understood how men thought and why such a "law" was given to Moses. At first here we see him speaking of one thing with regard to "death"...

    "These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep." John 11:11

    But his disciples understood something else:

    "Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well." John 11:12

    And then the conversation continues and knowing their understanding Jesus changes gears and speaks in terms they understand:

    "Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

    Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead." John 11:13-14

    Jesus recognized the death that God saw in every man born of woman, but he also understood the death that men understood which pertained to their physical bodies and the physical death of Lazarus.

    To be continued...
     
  2. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Part II

    Where to now? Murder and abortion.

    If there is no real life, how can abortion be murder? If there is no life how can there be murder which an action meaning to take a person’s life?

    To God man has been dead and anyone who has not received what Jesus brought, Life, remains dead, but...

    As we saw with Jesus and the case of Lazarus, God does understand what man means by “life” and treats it in accord with His knowledge.

    When death and all of the dead things are gone...

    “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” Rev 21:4

    But they are not gone so what are we to do with what we have, this life [what man calls life] and whatever else God has given us?

    How about being good stewards? .

    “And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?” Luke 12:42

    “As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.” I Peter 4:10

    There many other verses of scripture about stewards and we should be aware of what they all say. We are stewards until we qualify to be heirs and finally to actually inherit so that we are owners. In the interim, God is the owner of it all, is He not? Is that not the reason it is appropriate to call us stewards until then?

    “The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever” Psalm 37:29.

    “And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?” Luke 16:23

    And at the end of a parable on stewardship, Jesus says this:

    “For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.” Luke 19:26

    We have been given a dead vessel as part of our stewardship but with potential. We can do nothing and lose even our stewardship, or we may choose to partake of Jesus as the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit , and thereby be moved from death to Life... from steward to son. So then is stewardship important to us?


    In Exodus I guess God used man’s way of speaking about “death” when he said, “You shall not murder." Ex 20:13

    The natural children of Jacob/Israel were stewards as we are.

    How does abortion fit into this picture? In God’s eyes according to what He said about Adam and Eve, they were dead and therefore all of the babies born to dead women would also be born dead, in the eyes of God.

    Whether you consider the little creation in a woman’s womb a living soul or not, it is certainly a part of someone’s stewardship, is it not? We can change the definition of life as men essentially have done since their definition is not equal to God’s, but that still does not remove our responsibility as stewards.

    Are we stewards over fetuses in the wombs of women we have never met?

    Then closer to home, are we our brother’s keeper? Who is our brother? Who is our sister? Who is our mother?

    “For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.” Matt 12:50

    The fetus is perhaps not our brother, and the woman carrying him in her womb is perhaps not our sister... but is the fetus of less worth than the sparrow or than our neighbor’s dog? Is the unborn fetus in the womb of our enemy worth less than any adult human? Even if it is, does that mean we can pass on by taking no action when we have the means to allow that fetus to be born alive [by any definition of life under man’s law]?

    “Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?

    But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.” Luke 12:6-7

    Consider the following verse to help us understand better the mind of God with regard anything valued by someone else or under someone else’s stewarship:

    “If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.” Ex 23:4

    What does it mean to be a steward? What does it mean to be a brother? How are we to treat even those understood to be our enemies?
     
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  3. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Question: are babies born with their heart hardened of God or of themselves? Are there any verses which say a child is born with a heart of stone?

    1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

    why would God say you must be as one of these little ones to enter into the Kingdom? If their heart was hardened and dead already? Even going as far as Mark 10:14-16 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. [15] Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. [16] And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

    Get He is speaking of one was be born again, as little children of God ...but why does God always refer to children as newness...?
     
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  4. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    I don't know such a verse relating to a baby.

    I would say rather that babies are born with a clean slate. As they grow they follow teachings and examples of those around them. Unfortunately, there is a lot of bad teaching and examples among parents or guardians. Even the best of parents make serious mistakes with their children.

    "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Prov 22:6

    This is a true proverb but how many parents really train their child precisely "in the way he should go"?

    I know I did not say that little ones were "hardened and dead". They are dead like everyone is dead when born to carnal parents. This is why Jesus came for "whosoever will" to bring the Life which they did not have. The baby is sweet and lovable at the beginning but also quite self centered for survival's sake. That self-centeredness in an infant is how the child receives attention required to life since he cannot feed, clean or cover himself to stay healthy and comfortable. He learns that crying will bring necessary attention. However, that self-centerness if not redirected will become a hard selfishness that is very common in carnal men. A good Christian parent can divert that child toward the ways of Jesus, but how often does that happen and to what extent?

    The very small baby has the right attitude crying only because he really needs something, be it warmth, or food or a clean diaper. This is the necessary attitude looking only to hopefully obtain real needs as opposed to what people call needs as they grow older.

    A tiny baby does not start being spoiled. That is that is something that develops when he learns that his crying will get things that are wanted, but not really needed. Many older children and even adults do not really know the difference. They are still spoiled in their selfishness and the worse their condition the fewer friends they are likely to have. The older the person is, the less tolerable it is to even many people who do not know God.

    Jesus presented in his years of living as a man a perfect example. We need to begin like the tiny child in our attitude to become like Jesus. This means for a carnal person a need to start over again with that clean slate and let God fill in the blanks with all of the perfect pieces.
    Through Jesus and the Holy Spirit this is a possibility.
     
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  5. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. That was my only questions...mainly concerning when a heart is hardened against God. I have grandchildren ...and I had an abortion when I was sixteen. At the time I didn’t know any better and was very immature. Never knew the impact it would have. If I could go back and change it ...I would. I’ve seen children who are too young to know God bear more of His heavenly image than many adults.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
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  6. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Psalm 8:2

    Out of the mouths of babes and infants you have drawn a defense against your foes, to silence enemy and avenger.


    Peace be with you!
     
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  7. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Spiritually dead means dead to God and the things of the Spirit. It does not mean hardened hearts. That applies to adults who have been shown the Truth and turned away from it. Or been convicted and have not repented.
     
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  8. DoveSpirit05

    DoveSpirit05 Active Member

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  9. Stan B

    Stan B Active Member

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    If God is against abortion, He forgot to mention it in Scripture.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2019
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  10. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    WRONG.

    Jer. 1:5
    BEFORE I formed you in the womb I knew you, BEFORE you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

    God is NOT bound by time (2 Pet. 3:8). To Him - ALL human history is like a finished painting. YOUR life - from conception to death has already happened in His eyes. Killing an unborn child is the SAME as killing an adult - and maybe even worse because that adult has had the chance to offend God. the unborn baby hasn't.

    Those who reckon that abortion isn't against the will of God because it is not explicitly mentioned by name in Scripture are playing a very dangerous game because you are rationalizing sin
    - Child molestation isn't mentioned. Is THAT not a sin?
    - How about shooting heroin? How about giving it to your kid?
    -
    Where does the Bible condemn pornography? Is THAT not a sin?

    The idea that abortion isn't sinful because it's not explicitly mentioned in Scripture is as spiritually-bankrupt as saying that the above list is "okay" in the eyes of God . . .
     
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  11. Stan B

    Stan B Active Member

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    BreadOfLife, You confirm my observation "If God is against abortion, that He forgot to mention it in Scripture."

    Then you quote Jer 1:5 “BEFORE I formed you in the womb I knew you, BEFORE you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

    That was a declaration of God's program for one specific person.

    No big deal! He knew us all, those whom "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world . . ." Ephesians 1:4 He knew who would be born and who wouldn't.

    BreadOfLife, getting really desperate, you say "Killing an unborn child is the SAME as killing an adult - and maybe even worse because that adult has had the chance to offend God. the unborn baby hasn't."

    This twists the English language into knots, in an effort to make the Bible say something that it does not say. How can you kill an unborn child?? If it has never been born, then it is not a living being. How can you kill something that is not alive?? It is just an unformed fetus that has never breathed it's first breath of life!

    God's laws in the Torah are so extremely detailed, right down to the food we eat, that to have omitted mention of abortion in those laws, means that the subject is totally unimportant to Him. In fact He performs more abortions than anyone else. They are designated as sponstaneous abortions, or miscarriages. You have not provided a single scrap of Scripture to refute my statement.

    Anti abortionists are a psuedo-Christian political cult, that has taken upon themselves the task of adding to Scriputure. That's how all the cult leaders started their cults.
     
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  12. Stan B

    Stan B Active Member

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    BreadOfLife says "Child molestation isn't mentioned. Is THAT not a sin?"

    Again, like your failed addition to Scripture concerning abortion, God doesn't have a problem with interaction with little girls.

    According to Scripture. God often ordered Israel to attack another nation, completely wiping out thousands of men, women and little children. which obviously included the termination of a pregnancy. God didn't have a problem with soldiers capturing and keeping little girls for their own gratification, all the little girls they captured as sex slaves, a reward for the soldier's services.

    "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the little girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves." Numbers 31

    Do you want to debate the morality of keeping little girls as sex slaves? How young is too young?

    God doesn't seem have a problem with it!
     
  13. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    I dont know which is worse, your condoning of 'interaction with little girls' or ascribing indifference to God about such activity.

    Repent of this wickedness of yours and pray to the Lord that, if possible, your intention may be forgiven.

     
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  14. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Weak argument

    As I pointed out - what he said about Jeremiah applies to ALL. He knew ALL of us BEFORE He formed us in the womb because He is not constrained by time. Everything is already completed in His eyes. Once you are able to grasp this - the rest is easy.

    We also have example such as John the Baptist - who "leapt for joy" in his mother's womb at the arrival of Mary because she was carrying Jesus. He was moved by the Holy Spirit to show emotion - even from the womb, which illustrates that he was very much ALIVE.

    As for the killing of an innocent being worse than killing a guilty person - I'm NOT sure why this is so difficult for you to grasp.
    It's not rocket science. Even the laws of our society put a greater value on the killing of innocent people than those perpetrating a crime. I shouldn't have to explain to you that killing a man while defending your family ans killing an innocent baby out of convenience are completely different scenarios.
     
  15. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    This isn't a reference to child molestation.

    Most translations are clear that it is talking about young virgins - not kids. When you consider that women married at a much younger age in ancient times - then you see this more clearly. Mary, the Mother of Jesus is said to have been about 15 years old when she conceived.

    YOUR problem is that you compare every culture in every age to your 21st century sensibilities.
    So, you see - rationalizing an evil like abortion simply because it isn't explicitly mentions in Scripture is as idiotic as saying that killing somebody with a car is Scripturally okay because cars hadn't been invented yet . . .
     
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  16. Stan B

    Stan B Active Member

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    Repent of what?? Quoting Scripture??

    From this passage, we see the mind of God. If you don't like that God, then you have the option of choosing a new one, one who will agree with you.
     
  17. Stan B

    Stan B Active Member

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    Yeah, I agree with pretty much everything you say. From my research, Mary was only 13 when she conceived, and 14 years of age when she bore Jesus. And that seems to have been the norm in those days. Males entered manhood at their bar mitzvah at age 12, but girls entered womanhood at year earlier via their bas mitzvah at age 11. The criteria in those days, was the ability to breastfeed an infant.
     
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  18. Stan B

    Stan B Active Member

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    No lower criteria is mentioned. The only criteria is mentioned is that they be virgins, and they were not to be shared with their sons. They were just dad's toy. So any virgin from birth on up was fair game.
     
  19. DoveSpirit05

    DoveSpirit05 Active Member

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    where did u find Mary's age? coz its not in scripture.
     
  20. Stan B

    Stan B Active Member

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    That's just common historical knowledge from reading the ancient texts, and consistent with the traditional bas mitzvah of that era, where one became a woman at age 11, while guys were a little slower, and did not become an adult until age 12.

    Look it up on Wiki. Lots of info there.
     
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