Some denominations teach that Chriist died for the whole world. Others claim that He died for only those who were the Elect of God from before the foundation of the world.1) One Sripture that shows that Christ died only for those chosen by the Father for Salvation is found in John 17:8-9, which is the chapter known as Jesus' High Priestly Prayer to the Father. Jesus, on the night before he died, prayed to the Father (as verses 8-9 show), "For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."2) A second Bible verse that shows that certain souls were chosen (elected) for Christ to Save by His death on the cross is shown in Romans 9:10-13, "And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad -- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call -- she was told, 'The older will serve the younger. As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 'As we see here, too, Christ's atonement was for those whom God chose to be saved through their belief in His Son and His Death on the cross for their sins.Can anyone think of any other Bible reference to support the limited atonement of Christ's death on the cross?waynemlj
Limited Atonement of Christ
- Thread starter waynemlj
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Exodus 4:21, 14:4, 8, 17; Deuteronomy 2:30, 9:4-7, 29:4; Joshua 11:19; 1 Samuel 2:25, 3:14; 2 Samuel 17:14; Psalm 105:25; Proverbs 15:8, 26, 28:9; Isaiah 53:11; Jeremiah 24:7; Matthew 1:21, 11:25-27, 13:10-15, 44-46, 15:13, 20:28, 22:14, 24:22; Luke 8:15, 13:23, 19:42; John 5:21, 6:37, 44, 65, 8:42-47, 10:11, 14, 26-28, 11:49-53, 12:37-41, 13:1, 18, 15:16, 17:2, 6, 9, 18:9, 37; Acts 2:39, 13:48, 18:27, 19:9; Romans 9:10-26, 11:5-10; 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, 2:14; 2 Corinthians 2:14-16, 4:3; Galatians 1:3; Ephesians 2:1-10; Colossians 2:13; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-14; 2 Timothy 2:20, 25; Titus 2:14; Hebrews 1:3, 14, 2:9, 16 (cp. Galatians 3:29, 4:28-31), 9:28; 1 Peter 2:8; 2 Peter 2:7; 1 John 4:6; Jude 1, 14; Revelation 13:8, 17:8, 15-18, 21:27.
(waynemlj;35373)
Some denominations teach that Chriist died for the whole world. Others claim that He died for only those who were the Elect of God from before the foundation of the world.1) One Sripture that shows that Christ died only for those chosen by the Father for Salvation is found in John 17:8-9, which is the chapter known as Jesus' High Priestly Prayer to the Father. Jesus, on the night before he died, prayed to the Father (as verses 8-9 show), "For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."2) A second Bible verse that shows that certain souls were chosen (elected) for Christ to Save by His death on the cross is shown in Romans 9:10-13, "And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad -- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call -- she was told, 'The older will serve the younger. As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 'As we see here, too, Christ's atonement was for those whom God chose to be saved through their belief in His Son and His Death on the cross for their sins.Can anyone think of any other Bible reference to support the limited atonement of Christ's death on the cross?waynemlj
Where do I start? If you check out the word "foundation" in the Greek like in Eph.1:4, you will find that it is the Noun (katabole) and refers to Satan's overthrow in the first earth age. Those that fought against Satan or overcame him are God's elect. They are predestined and they justified because they earned it. Now to defeat Satan and give all other souls a choice life or death of soul, they tabernacle in flesh bodies and must be born of the Spirit, God's Word. This includes all, whomsoever, except Satan and his angels. All includes God Himself and all souls must tabernacle in the flesh and be born of the Spirit. This is how Satan is defeated and all souls given a choice of life or death of soul.Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Satan has / had the power (legal right) to accuse many. Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. All must be born in a sac of water (flesh) and of the Spirit (God's Word).1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Some denominations teach that Chriist died for the whole world. Others claim that He died for only those who were the Elect of God from before the foundation of the world.1) One Sripture that shows that Christ died only for those chosen by the Father for Salvation is found in John 17:8-9, which is the chapter known as Jesus' High Priestly Prayer to the Father. Jesus, on the night before he died, prayed to the Father (as verses 8-9 show), "For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."2) A second Bible verse that shows that certain souls were chosen (elected) for Christ to Save by His death on the cross is shown in Romans 9:10-13, "And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad -- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call -- she was told, 'The older will serve the younger. As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 'As we see here, too, Christ's atonement was for those whom God chose to be saved through their belief in His Son and His Death on the cross for their sins.Can anyone think of any other Bible reference to support the limited atonement of Christ's death on the cross?waynemlj
Where do I start? If you check out the word "foundation" in the Greek like in Eph.1:4, you will find that it is the Noun (katabole) and refers to Satan's overthrow in the first earth age. Those that fought against Satan or overcame him are God's elect. They are predestined and they justified because they earned it. Now to defeat Satan and give all other souls a choice life or death of soul, they tabernacle in flesh bodies and must be born of the Spirit, God's Word. This includes all, whomsoever, except Satan and his angels. All includes God Himself and all souls must tabernacle in the flesh and be born of the Spirit. This is how Satan is defeated and all souls given a choice of life or death of soul.Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Satan has / had the power (legal right) to accuse many. Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. All must be born in a sac of water (flesh) and of the Spirit (God's Word).1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
(waynemlj;35373)
Some denominations teach that Chriist died for the whole world. Others claim that He died for only those who were the Elect of God from before the foundation of the world.1) One Sripture that shows that Christ died only for those chosen by the Father for Salvation is found in John 17:8-9, which is the chapter known as Jesus' High Priestly Prayer to the Father. Jesus, on the night before he died, prayed to the Father (as verses 8-9 show), "For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."2) A second Bible verse that shows that certain souls were chosen (elected) for Christ to Save by His death on the cross is shown in Romans 9:10-13, "And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad -- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call -- she was told, 'The older will serve the younger. As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 'As we see here, too, Christ's atonement was for those whom God chose to be saved through their belief in His Son and His Death on the cross for their sins.Can anyone think of any other Bible reference to support the limited atonement of Christ's death on the cross?waynemlj
An interesting question to say the least. However, I thing it important do view the difference between Christ dying for all mankind and that of the atonement.Christ indeed died for all mankind. He provided the gift of the resurrection for all mankind. Both believer and non believer are freely given this gift.The atonement is a separate matter with certain conditions that apply to receive the glorious benefit therefrom. While the gift of the atonement is available, we must remember that it is only upon condition of faith and repentance that we may individually receive and benefit therefrom.
Some denominations teach that Chriist died for the whole world. Others claim that He died for only those who were the Elect of God from before the foundation of the world.1) One Sripture that shows that Christ died only for those chosen by the Father for Salvation is found in John 17:8-9, which is the chapter known as Jesus' High Priestly Prayer to the Father. Jesus, on the night before he died, prayed to the Father (as verses 8-9 show), "For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."2) A second Bible verse that shows that certain souls were chosen (elected) for Christ to Save by His death on the cross is shown in Romans 9:10-13, "And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad -- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call -- she was told, 'The older will serve the younger. As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 'As we see here, too, Christ's atonement was for those whom God chose to be saved through their belief in His Son and His Death on the cross for their sins.Can anyone think of any other Bible reference to support the limited atonement of Christ's death on the cross?waynemlj
An interesting question to say the least. However, I thing it important do view the difference between Christ dying for all mankind and that of the atonement.Christ indeed died for all mankind. He provided the gift of the resurrection for all mankind. Both believer and non believer are freely given this gift.The atonement is a separate matter with certain conditions that apply to receive the glorious benefit therefrom. While the gift of the atonement is available, we must remember that it is only upon condition of faith and repentance that we may individually receive and benefit therefrom.
well if God predetermined who would be saved that brings up the issue of Gods love. Why would he create someone just to throw them in the pit.
(Job one;35444)
An interesting question to say the least. However, I thing it important do view the difference between Christ dying for all mankind and that of the atonement.Christ indeed died for all mankind. He provided the gift of the resurrection for all mankind. Both believer and non believer are freely given this gift.The atonement is a separate matter with certain conditions that apply to receive the glorious benefit therefrom. While the gift of the atonement is available, we must remember that it is only upon condition of faith and repentance that we may individually receive and benefit therefrom.
Hi Job one,I think you did a good job to try for a distinction between Christ dying for all men and Christ's atonement being limited to the elect.Consider, though, what your first point implies. It, in fact, is saying that Christ died for all men, but He failed in His mission because not all men will be saved. That's not a tenable position.Christ's death is efficacious . . . that is, it produces perfectly and completely exactly what He intended it to produce -- salvation for the elect of God.No, I hold to the Scriptural truth that Christ died only for the elect . . . not for ALL men. BTW, Job one, have you figured out why the Toolbar above does not work at all?waynemlj
An interesting question to say the least. However, I thing it important do view the difference between Christ dying for all mankind and that of the atonement.Christ indeed died for all mankind. He provided the gift of the resurrection for all mankind. Both believer and non believer are freely given this gift.The atonement is a separate matter with certain conditions that apply to receive the glorious benefit therefrom. While the gift of the atonement is available, we must remember that it is only upon condition of faith and repentance that we may individually receive and benefit therefrom.
Hi Job one,I think you did a good job to try for a distinction between Christ dying for all men and Christ's atonement being limited to the elect.Consider, though, what your first point implies. It, in fact, is saying that Christ died for all men, but He failed in His mission because not all men will be saved. That's not a tenable position.Christ's death is efficacious . . . that is, it produces perfectly and completely exactly what He intended it to produce -- salvation for the elect of God.No, I hold to the Scriptural truth that Christ died only for the elect . . . not for ALL men. BTW, Job one, have you figured out why the Toolbar above does not work at all?waynemlj
(eternalarcadia;35447)
well if God predetermined who would be saved that brings up the issue of Gods love. Why would he create someone just to throw them in the pit.
That's not an accurate understanding of predestination. God saves some and gives justice to others. He is never unjust, and that is something you must not let slip from your mind.Indeed He is utterly graceful to those who will eventually enter hell--does He not control their death? Then why hasn't He killed them all instantly upon their very first sin? His wrath burns against seemingly (not SEEMINGLY) trivial manners, killing people in the OT in an instant. Why not all sinners? Because He LOVES His creation! God is indeed love.Here's the question I have for you: does these hypothetical people (let's say, Pharaoh, for instance) ever want to be saved? Has God somehow gone against their will? Does He harden Pharaoh's heart? Yes. Did He predestine Judas, Pilate, et al to do their deeds? Yes. But were any of those people ever willing against that path? No; and I say No confidently because the Bible says that man loves darkness rather than light, and there are none righteous. Man's strongest desire, until regeneration, is always apart from God.
well if God predetermined who would be saved that brings up the issue of Gods love. Why would he create someone just to throw them in the pit.
That's not an accurate understanding of predestination. God saves some and gives justice to others. He is never unjust, and that is something you must not let slip from your mind.Indeed He is utterly graceful to those who will eventually enter hell--does He not control their death? Then why hasn't He killed them all instantly upon their very first sin? His wrath burns against seemingly (not SEEMINGLY) trivial manners, killing people in the OT in an instant. Why not all sinners? Because He LOVES His creation! God is indeed love.Here's the question I have for you: does these hypothetical people (let's say, Pharaoh, for instance) ever want to be saved? Has God somehow gone against their will? Does He harden Pharaoh's heart? Yes. Did He predestine Judas, Pilate, et al to do their deeds? Yes. But were any of those people ever willing against that path? No; and I say No confidently because the Bible says that man loves darkness rather than light, and there are none righteous. Man's strongest desire, until regeneration, is always apart from God.
Jon-Marc
New Member
If God has chosen who He will or will not save, that puts a question mark on His love. His love then is not unconditional but conditional. Also, there would be no way we could ever be sure that we are one of the chosen. I know that since He says that "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" that I am not worthy of being saved. Since His word says that "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" that I have no chance of being saved. After all, if it becomes a matter of who is worthy and who isn't, I for one could never be so pious as to say that I am worthy. I would go through life with doubts about my salvation. If atonement is limited to a chosen few, then what about the words, "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"? "Whosoever" means ANYONE and not just a chosen few.
(waynemlj;35373)
Some denominations teach that Chriist died for the whole world. Others claim that He died for only those who were the Elect of God from before the foundation of the world.1) One Sripture that shows that Christ died only for those chosen by the Father for Salvation is found in John 17:8-9, which is the chapter known as Jesus' High Priestly Prayer to the Father. Jesus, on the night before he died, prayed to the Father (as verses 8-9 show), "For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."2) A second Bible verse that shows that certain souls were chosen (elected) for Christ to Save by His death on the cross is shown in Romans 9:10-13, "And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad -- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call -- she was told, 'The older will serve the younger. As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 'As we see here, too, Christ's atonement was for those whom God chose to be saved through their belief in His Son and His Death on the cross for their sins.Can anyone think of any other Bible reference to support the limited atonement of Christ's death on the cross?waynemlj
You have forgot about 1 Timothy 2; 4--6, 1 John 2: 1--2. John 1: 29. The " Elect" is made up of all them that will believe, God has chosen a body, That body consist of a everyone who will believe, God has not chosen individuals, That would make Him a respecter of people, thus making Him a sinner. James 2: 9, There is at least nine scriptures in the Bible that say God isn't a respecter of people.
Some denominations teach that Chriist died for the whole world. Others claim that He died for only those who were the Elect of God from before the foundation of the world.1) One Sripture that shows that Christ died only for those chosen by the Father for Salvation is found in John 17:8-9, which is the chapter known as Jesus' High Priestly Prayer to the Father. Jesus, on the night before he died, prayed to the Father (as verses 8-9 show), "For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."2) A second Bible verse that shows that certain souls were chosen (elected) for Christ to Save by His death on the cross is shown in Romans 9:10-13, "And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad -- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call -- she was told, 'The older will serve the younger. As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 'As we see here, too, Christ's atonement was for those whom God chose to be saved through their belief in His Son and His Death on the cross for their sins.Can anyone think of any other Bible reference to support the limited atonement of Christ's death on the cross?waynemlj
You have forgot about 1 Timothy 2; 4--6, 1 John 2: 1--2. John 1: 29. The " Elect" is made up of all them that will believe, God has chosen a body, That body consist of a everyone who will believe, God has not chosen individuals, That would make Him a respecter of people, thus making Him a sinner. James 2: 9, There is at least nine scriptures in the Bible that say God isn't a respecter of people.
Jon-Marc
New Member
The only ones that God has "chosen" are those that He KNOWS will call upon Him for forgiveness. He has provided salvation for ANYONE who will come to Him so that none can say, "I called on You in repentance and asked for Your forgiveness, and You wouldn't give it. It's Your fault that I'm not saved." He knows who will and who will not come to Him. He has foreknowledge of all things.
(Jon-Marc;36773)
He has foreknowledge of all things.
Sorry, this statement is very wrong. God has foreknowledge of mankind or society in general but not of individual decisions.
He has foreknowledge of all things.
Sorry, this statement is very wrong. God has foreknowledge of mankind or society in general but not of individual decisions.
(waynemlj;35477)
Hi Job one,I think you did a good job to try for a distinction between Christ dying for all men and Chrit's atonement being limited to the elect.Consider, though, what your first point implies. It, in fact, is saying that Christ died for all men, but He failed in His mission because not all men will be saved. That's not a tenable position.Christ's death is efficacious . . . that is, it produces perfectly and completely exactly what He intended it to produce -- salvation for the elect of God.No, I hold to the Scriptural truth that Christ died only for the elect . . . not for ALL men. BTW, Job one, have you figured out why the Toolbar above does not work at all?waynemlj
Hi wayne,I hold to my original statement that Christ did die for all mankind. The resurrection is a free gift to all to both believer and non believer. In this sense all mankind are forever indebted to Christ. In other words the effects of the "fall" are overcome. The atonement is the key to forgiveness of sins and is also a gift provided for all. However the reception of the gift of the atonement is dependent upon the exercise of faith unto repentance which then prepares us to receive the power of mercy that can overpower justice of the law. The power of the atonement is infinite and eternal and is available to all men and women who have ever lived or who will ever yet live. If we do not come unto Christ by exercising faith unto repentance then the power of the atonement will not help us. This failure is ours and ours alone. Christ has not failed and the gift of the atonement is in full force and effect and fully available to all. The power of agency or choice is freely given to all. The big question is which master will we choose to serve? As far as your question regarding the tool bar, I am probably not the one to have an answer. I am computer illiterate or challenged. I navigate on a wing and a prayer!
Hi Job one,I think you did a good job to try for a distinction between Christ dying for all men and Chrit's atonement being limited to the elect.Consider, though, what your first point implies. It, in fact, is saying that Christ died for all men, but He failed in His mission because not all men will be saved. That's not a tenable position.Christ's death is efficacious . . . that is, it produces perfectly and completely exactly what He intended it to produce -- salvation for the elect of God.No, I hold to the Scriptural truth that Christ died only for the elect . . . not for ALL men. BTW, Job one, have you figured out why the Toolbar above does not work at all?waynemlj
Hi wayne,I hold to my original statement that Christ did die for all mankind. The resurrection is a free gift to all to both believer and non believer. In this sense all mankind are forever indebted to Christ. In other words the effects of the "fall" are overcome. The atonement is the key to forgiveness of sins and is also a gift provided for all. However the reception of the gift of the atonement is dependent upon the exercise of faith unto repentance which then prepares us to receive the power of mercy that can overpower justice of the law. The power of the atonement is infinite and eternal and is available to all men and women who have ever lived or who will ever yet live. If we do not come unto Christ by exercising faith unto repentance then the power of the atonement will not help us. This failure is ours and ours alone. Christ has not failed and the gift of the atonement is in full force and effect and fully available to all. The power of agency or choice is freely given to all. The big question is which master will we choose to serve? As far as your question regarding the tool bar, I am probably not the one to have an answer. I am computer illiterate or challenged. I navigate on a wing and a prayer!
1. I don't see the significance between the 2, how does it matter if He dies for all humans or just the Elect.2. Before we can fully grasp the concept of pre-destination, I think we can actually put aside His foreknowledge and omni-sciense just for the sake of easier understand. That is, we may assume that His foreknowledge doesn't necessarily affect what will happen in the future, and in that sense, the ransom is paid for all. That is, all humans can freely choose the gift of Salvation provided by the Second Covenant.
(Wayne Murray;36778)
Sorry, this statement is very wrong. God has foreknowledge of mankind or society in general but not of individual decisions.
This statement is very wrong.Psalm 139:4 - Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all.
Sorry, this statement is very wrong. God has foreknowledge of mankind or society in general but not of individual decisions.
This statement is very wrong.Psalm 139:4 - Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all.
(waynemlj;35373)
Some denominations teach that Chriist died for the whole world. Others claim that He died for only those who were the Elect of God from before the foundation of the world.1) One Sripture that shows that Christ died only for those chosen by the Father for Salvation is found in John 17:8-9, which is the chapter known as Jesus' High Priestly Prayer to the Father. Jesus, on the night before he died, prayed to the Father (as verses 8-9 show), "For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."2) A second Bible verse that shows that certain souls were chosen (elected) for Christ to Save by His death on the cross is shown in Romans 9:10-13, "And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad -- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call -- she was told, 'The older will serve the younger. As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 'As we see here, too, Christ's atonement was for those whom God chose to be saved through their belief in His Son and His Death on the cross for their sins.Can anyone think of any other Bible reference to support the limited atonement of Christ's death on the cross?waynemlj
There is no such thing as "Limited atonement". When Jesus said, "Those who you gave me" is refering to Everyone who will believe on Jesus and receive the atonment. Then God gives them to Jesus.The "Election in Romans 9, Is talking about God chosing to bring his covenant in through the seed of Abraham, being Isaac, Galatians 3; 16, & 29.God chose a body, which consist of everyone who will believe in Christ. It is the body of Christ that was chosen, not the indervidual.God is no respecter of people, and to be a respecter of people is sin, If God choses one and not the other that maks Him a sinner. God wants everyone saved.1 Timothy 2:1--6, 1 John 2: 1--2.If anyone had the love of God burning in your soul for one second they will never say that choses one to salvation and reject someone else.John 3: 16-17,For God SO [An intense love] the world that he gave His only Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life, for God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him [might] be saved.Notice the word [Might], Under the election teaching those who God choses will be saved and never lose their salvation. Yet this scripture alone ends that idea. "The world through Him [MIGHT] be saved.it didn't say they will be, it said, "They might be" the choice is ours.Also Matthew 25: 1--13 says some will not make it, Did God make the wrong choice, or did they have free will. It is for "the whosoever will " not the whosever God choses.
Some denominations teach that Chriist died for the whole world. Others claim that He died for only those who were the Elect of God from before the foundation of the world.1) One Sripture that shows that Christ died only for those chosen by the Father for Salvation is found in John 17:8-9, which is the chapter known as Jesus' High Priestly Prayer to the Father. Jesus, on the night before he died, prayed to the Father (as verses 8-9 show), "For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."2) A second Bible verse that shows that certain souls were chosen (elected) for Christ to Save by His death on the cross is shown in Romans 9:10-13, "And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad -- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call -- she was told, 'The older will serve the younger. As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 'As we see here, too, Christ's atonement was for those whom God chose to be saved through their belief in His Son and His Death on the cross for their sins.Can anyone think of any other Bible reference to support the limited atonement of Christ's death on the cross?waynemlj
There is no such thing as "Limited atonement". When Jesus said, "Those who you gave me" is refering to Everyone who will believe on Jesus and receive the atonment. Then God gives them to Jesus.The "Election in Romans 9, Is talking about God chosing to bring his covenant in through the seed of Abraham, being Isaac, Galatians 3; 16, & 29.God chose a body, which consist of everyone who will believe in Christ. It is the body of Christ that was chosen, not the indervidual.God is no respecter of people, and to be a respecter of people is sin, If God choses one and not the other that maks Him a sinner. God wants everyone saved.1 Timothy 2:1--6, 1 John 2: 1--2.If anyone had the love of God burning in your soul for one second they will never say that choses one to salvation and reject someone else.John 3: 16-17,For God SO [An intense love] the world that he gave His only Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life, for God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him [might] be saved.Notice the word [Might], Under the election teaching those who God choses will be saved and never lose their salvation. Yet this scripture alone ends that idea. "The world through Him [MIGHT] be saved.it didn't say they will be, it said, "They might be" the choice is ours.Also Matthew 25: 1--13 says some will not make it, Did God make the wrong choice, or did they have free will. It is for "the whosoever will " not the whosever God choses.
1) John 17 was probably a prayer for the disciples, given context. Extrapolating all of it to the rest of Jesus' followers might not be a stretch, but keep that in mind.2) When scripture says "whosoever will" believe in Jesus shall have eternal life, the question we must ask is who can believe in Jesus? Scripture makes it plain that no one, of his or her own accord, would come to Christ. Jesus says, "No one comes to the Son unless the Father drags him." Only those who are dragged are saved.
Hi Ex Pyros,You sure did a lot of work to search out all these relevant Scriptures.Excellent reply. I enjoyed checking them out!Thank you,waynemlj
(Wayne Murray;36778)
Sorry, this statement is very wrong. God has foreknowledge of mankind or society in general but not of individual decisions.
Hi Wayne Murray,If God has any limitations to His knowledge, then He is not God.Psalm 44: 20-21, "If we had forgotten the name of our God or spread out our hands to a foreign God, would not God discover this?For he knows the secrets of the heart."waynemlj
Sorry, this statement is very wrong. God has foreknowledge of mankind or society in general but not of individual decisions.
Hi Wayne Murray,If God has any limitations to His knowledge, then He is not God.Psalm 44: 20-21, "If we had forgotten the name of our God or spread out our hands to a foreign God, would not God discover this?For he knows the secrets of the heart."waynemlj
(Job one;36824)
Hi wayne,I hold to my original statement that Christ did die for all mankind. The resurrection is a free gift to all to both believer and non believer. In this sense all mankind are forever indebted to Christ. In other words the effects of the "fall" are overcome. The atonement is the key to forgiveness of sins and is also a gift provided for all. However the reception of the gift of the atonement is dependent upon the exercise of faith unto repentance which then prepares us to receive the power of mercy that can overpower justice of the law. The power of the atonement is infinite and eternal and is available to all men and women who have ever lived or who will ever yet live. If we do not come unto Christ by exercising faith unto repentance then the power of the atonement will not help us. This failure is ours and ours alone. Christ has not failed and the gift of the atonement is in full force and effect and fully available to all. The power of agency or choice is freely given to all. The big question is which master will we choose to serve? As far as your question regarding the tool bar, I am probably not the one to have an answer. I am computer illiterate or challenged. I navigate on a wing and a prayer!
Your understanding of atonement is right in part. However, God did not include all men in His plan of atonement. That's why the New Testament, everywhere speaks of God's Elect, as in this word from Paul in Rom. 9:13, "And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather, Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad -- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call -- she was told, 'The older shall serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.' " And following from there to verse 18.Jesus said in John Ch. 17 that he was dying "for those the Father gave him." Read all of that chapter to see the idea of limited atonement.waynemlj
Hi wayne,I hold to my original statement that Christ did die for all mankind. The resurrection is a free gift to all to both believer and non believer. In this sense all mankind are forever indebted to Christ. In other words the effects of the "fall" are overcome. The atonement is the key to forgiveness of sins and is also a gift provided for all. However the reception of the gift of the atonement is dependent upon the exercise of faith unto repentance which then prepares us to receive the power of mercy that can overpower justice of the law. The power of the atonement is infinite and eternal and is available to all men and women who have ever lived or who will ever yet live. If we do not come unto Christ by exercising faith unto repentance then the power of the atonement will not help us. This failure is ours and ours alone. Christ has not failed and the gift of the atonement is in full force and effect and fully available to all. The power of agency or choice is freely given to all. The big question is which master will we choose to serve? As far as your question regarding the tool bar, I am probably not the one to have an answer. I am computer illiterate or challenged. I navigate on a wing and a prayer!
Your understanding of atonement is right in part. However, God did not include all men in His plan of atonement. That's why the New Testament, everywhere speaks of God's Elect, as in this word from Paul in Rom. 9:13, "And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather, Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad -- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call -- she was told, 'The older shall serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.' " And following from there to verse 18.Jesus said in John Ch. 17 that he was dying "for those the Father gave him." Read all of that chapter to see the idea of limited atonement.waynemlj
(Hawkins;36830)
1. I don't see the significance between the 2, how does it matter if He dies for all humans or just the Elect.2. Before we can fully grasp the concept of pre-destination, I think we can actually put aside His foreknowledge and omni-sciense just for the sake of easier understand. That is, we may assume that His foreknowledge doesn't necessarily affect what will happen in the future, and in that sense, the ransom is paid for all. That is, all humans can freely choose the gift of Salvation provided by the Second Covenant.
That sounds good on the surface, and there are Scritures like John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that all who believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life."But when we read this in conjunction with the entire New Testament references to the "Elect" we see the correct interpretation of John 3:16.If there are 10 coins on the table in front of you, and you "elect" (choose) only 5 of them, then you have Not "elected" the others. That's the same idea.Could God's plan of salvation, which was formed by a covenant between the Father and the Son before the world was even founded, fail to accomplish His purpose?The answer must be of course not! God cannot fail to accomplish what He intends. But Jesus clearly said that most people are going to hell. Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."So -- we need to live in constant thanksgiving that God has elected us to eternal life. Praise be to God!waynemlj
1. I don't see the significance between the 2, how does it matter if He dies for all humans or just the Elect.2. Before we can fully grasp the concept of pre-destination, I think we can actually put aside His foreknowledge and omni-sciense just for the sake of easier understand. That is, we may assume that His foreknowledge doesn't necessarily affect what will happen in the future, and in that sense, the ransom is paid for all. That is, all humans can freely choose the gift of Salvation provided by the Second Covenant.
That sounds good on the surface, and there are Scritures like John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that all who believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life."But when we read this in conjunction with the entire New Testament references to the "Elect" we see the correct interpretation of John 3:16.If there are 10 coins on the table in front of you, and you "elect" (choose) only 5 of them, then you have Not "elected" the others. That's the same idea.Could God's plan of salvation, which was formed by a covenant between the Father and the Son before the world was even founded, fail to accomplish His purpose?The answer must be of course not! God cannot fail to accomplish what He intends. But Jesus clearly said that most people are going to hell. Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."So -- we need to live in constant thanksgiving that God has elected us to eternal life. Praise be to God!waynemlj
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