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Featured Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Dave L, Sep 29, 2018.

  1. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    I used to believe Christ's atonement was for everyone. But didn't save anyone unless they met the conditions that triggered it in their behalf. So, in my case the condition was faith. So I trusted in my faith to trigger the atonement and make it work for me. I also believed if I stopped believing, I would perish.

    Then I stumbled on Limited Atonement in taught in scripture. And everything changed. I realized that my faith was a result of Jesus paying for my sins on the cross. And had he not, I would not be able to believe. So I rejoiced seeing my faith as a gift God only gives to those for whom Christ died.

    I stopped trying to lift myself over the fence by grabbing my ankles by conjuring up faith, and delighted knowing I could not doubt even if I somehow wanted to.

    But I know, Jesus paid for the sins of all who want salvation through him, and persevere in it, but he didn't die for the many who do not want salvation by him. But love their sin more than God.
     
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  2. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    I see you are saying that having faith in faith will not save anyone. Does that mean that a person who has placed their belief, faith, trust, confidence in what Jesus did on the cross is having faith in faith? Doesn't sound like that to me unless you wish to twist it by double speak.

    You have spoken about yourself and your belief so I will speak about myself and my belief. The Gospel of Grace has convinced me that God so loved the world (His creation) that He gave His only Son to pay for the sins of the whole world. He paid for my sins of the flesh. God has elected that all those that will place their faith in the work of His Son on the cross will be saved, AND that includes me.

    It does not include those that do not place their faith in the work of His Son but place faith in their own works to be saved. They refuse to give Jesus the glory for salvation and go the way of Cain.

    God wants everyone to glorify His Son's work on the cross. When a person does this they are giving God glory too. I give Jesus all the credit for my salvation. But the religious want credit and glory for their own works.

    Thank you I have had my say.
     
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  3. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    If Christ died for all and all are not saved, his death didn't save anyone. It only made it possible for people to save themselves through obedience = works.
     
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  4. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Anyone who knows anything about the Bible understands that salvation is not by obedience = works.
     
  5. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    I think it is the most popular view today. If people only knew the joy of seeing their faith as evidence God saved them, and not a mindset they need to struggle with to make salvation happen. What a heavy burden.
     
  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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  7. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    ***

    What do you mean by seeing faith? Faith is not evidence that can be seen. It is what a person does in their heart. Faith has no physical substance that can be seen by our eyes. Faith is believing something that can not be seen.

    A simple example is that I have faith that my car will start in the morning but I can't see it until it happens and when I see it then there is no reason for faith.

    Today we are told to place our faith in Jesus' work on the cross and that IS found in Paul's gospel.
     
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  8. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    But unless you are saved, you cannot understand many important parts of the bible.
     
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  9. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    You are speaking of human "flesh faith" that everyone has more or less. This is not saving faith. Saving faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and evidence God has saved you if you have it.
     
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  10. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Christ died for all but not all will believe it, have faith in It. Most will only consider it to be a start of the work of salvation which must be completed by a person's works. They refuse to believe Paul when he said Gal.3:3.

    Gal 3:1-3
    1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
    2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
    NKJV

    Answer Paul's question.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018
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  11. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Jesus did not die for the Pharisees Jesus spoke to in John 10.
    “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)

    “But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26)
     
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  12. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Not through obedience, or works, but by faith (Eph 2:8,9).

    And it is biblically correct to conclude that His death did not save everyone AUTOMATICALLY, even though He died for all mankind. There are two conditions for salvation to become a reality (Acts 20:21).

    At the same time it is a perversion of the Gospel, and Gospel truth, to claim that Christ died only for the so-called elect. But if that is your false belief, no amount of Scripture will change it. Rarely (if ever) will a Calvinist acknowledge that Five Point Calvinism is actually A FALSE GOSPEL.
     
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  13. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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  14. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    Faith is the condition for salvation, that's clearly stated in the Bible. Faith, like salvation itself, is a gift God offers to all mankind. No one has to lift themselves-- no no! Rather we each allow Christ to lift us-- to let the seed of faith He plants in our hearts to grow. He did all the work, we each merely accept Him / His gift.
     
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  15. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    ..... 36_20_21.gif
     
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  16. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Here's how it works. The gospel announces salvation to believers. Whosoever believes has eternal life. If you believe this, it is evidence God saved you.

    But universal atonement does not save anyone, else all will be saved in the end. And we know this is not true. So in order to trigger such an atonement to work in your behalf, you must do or think something necessary to make it work. So you turn the simple gospel into law that rewards salvation thorough obedience. It's not only a false gospel but it makes you the savior and not Christ.
     
  17. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Where is faith a condition for salvation? It's a characteristic for those whom God saves.
     
  18. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit you must first have before you can believe. How can it be a condition? “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)
     
  19. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    So far this is the only thing you have said that I can agree with.
     
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  20. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    No one here that I have read is saying that there is universal salvation meaning ALL will be saved. If that is what you think they are saying it is only in your mind. The scriptures tell us that Jesus' work on the cross has paid for the sins of the whole world. That comes from the Bible. But most are missing the other part. No one will go to heaven unless they place their faith in what Jesus did on the cross. Not everyone will place faith in what they can not see with their eyes. But most will easily believe that their salvation is obtainable by their religious works that they can see.
     
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