Literal Isreal In End-Times Prophecy

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Hidden In Him

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Much debate lately about whether literal Israel actually plays a part in end-times prophecy or not, so I will start a thread for it. For those who think God is done with literal Israel, let me start by asking a few questions to kick things off: Does not the Bible say that God has made an everlasting covenant with the descendants of Abraham? And what should early church Christians have been looking for if the Antichrist was not going to conquer literal Israel and sit himself in the actual temple in Jerusalem?

Let's start with the first question:

1. Does not the Bible say that God made an everlasting covenant with the descendants of Abraham?

There are numerous passages on this, but let's start with the following:

Thus says the LORD, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the LORD of hosts is his name: 36 “If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the LORD, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever.” 37 Thus says the LORD: “If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be explored, then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done, declares the LORD” (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

The apostle Paul confirmed that these promises were still in effect to literal Israel when he said the following:

I ask, then, has God rejected his people [the Jews]? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has NOT rejected his people whom he foreknew” (Romans 11:1-2).

Now some argue here that God annulled His covenant with the Jews in A.D. 70 after they were unfaithful to Him by rejecting their Messiah, but this goes against what Paul said elsewhere in Romans:

Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4 By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.” (Romans 3:1-4).

So my first question is, does or does not scripture teach that God truly did make an everlasting covenant with literal Israel, one that has not yet passed away and never will?


2. What should early church Christians have been looking for if the Antichrist was not going to conquer literal Israel and take his seat in the actual temple of God in Jerusalem?

The passage for this is 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4:

Now we implore you, brothers, by the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him, that you not become quickly disturbed in mind nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by report, nor by letter as if written by us [intimating] that the Day of the Lord is here. No one should deceive you in any way if the apostasy has not yet come first and that man of lawlessness has been revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above everything that is called God or is worshipped, so as for him to sit down in the temple of God, exhibiting himself that he is God. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

What Paul in essence was telling them here was this: Do not become concerned that the Lord might be returning already and the Day of the Lord - the Day of His vengeance - is about to begin, if you have not yet seen the Antichrist emerge in Jerusalem, since the coming of the Antichrist is prophesied to precede the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the "apostasy" Paul was referring to here. The Antichrist would emerge, march upon Jerusalem and conquer it, and then take his seat in the temple of God in Jerusalem, in effect proclaiming himself to be God in manifestation. They fully expected this is potentially what a Roman emperor might soon do, because the potential for war was building between Rome and Judea, and Emperor Gaius (better known as Caligula) had indeed attempted to do these very things around A.D. 40, only he was thwarted from doing so and murdered before he could carry out his plans.

But both Christians and Jews now fully expected that the fulfillment of the prophecies concerning the Antichrist were now on their way to fulfillment.

Now, here is my question to those who subscribe to Replacement Theology; the idea that Israel has now been replaced in the eyes of God by the church. If this event was actually instead referring to some Pope one day taking his seat in the church and proclaiming himself to in effect be "God," wasn't Paul being misleading to the Thessalonians? This suggests that Paul was somehow warning them that a false leader would take his seat as head of the church, when at that time there was no head of the entire church, and there would not be a single monarchical bishop who would wield authority over the church for many centuries to come yet.

So what should early church Christians have been looking for if the Antichrist was not going to actually conquer literal Israel and take his seat in the actual temple of God in Jerusalem?

I suppose that will start things off. I will tag several people I think might be interested in this discussion, including several who I know actually take the opposite position that I do on this subject. I only ask that we be polite and respectful, and discuss things together in a Spirit of brotherly love.

In Christ,
Hidden In Him

@Heart2Soul, @marks, @quietthinker, @Backlit, @Mayflower, @charity, @Waiting on him, @APAK.
 

APAK

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There's a bit to comment here, so I will just start with your two first questions...

1. Answer...
Yes, the eternal Covenant was/is made originally to the physical/blood-line seed of Israel and because of repeated faithlessness and idols worship to name a couple of big reasons for sending divorce papers across to them, the LORD literally and spiritually, abandoned the physical seed of Israel in this Covenant and ended making/extending this everlasting Covenant to all the entire spiritual seed of Israel- that was the promise given to Abraham as well; and they were from all corners of the literal and physical globe. This all was foreseen by our Creator of course.

Now those in faith as were the Prophets and key people of God, and many of the common Israelites credited with righteousness all were included and stayed a a part of this same original Covenant, although incorporated with other faithful nations and peoples going forth. There has never been a return to the original unique Covenant to a physical Israel only, even if you could still recognize one today, and you cannot as they are in all nations today, regardless if Christ knows who they are. And I'm not thinking they are the same physical current political State of Israel either. They are not.

And why would YHWH promise a spiritual seed to Abraham and then say later, I broke my promise and only want the original literal Israel back again to be a part of it? Abraham's seed would be many, as the grains of sands on a beach. YHWH made good on his promise as all believers are under this same original Covenant today as a new creation in Christ. It is the spiritual and not the physical Israel as Paul writes in Galatians and Romans especially.

Galatians 6: 15-16...

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The true Israel of God has always been planned by YHWH to be spiritual, not literal or physical. Paul truly recognized this and he wrote it down. He never foresaw a future physical Israel with a separate Covenant in play, against the other nations, when Christ returns. He would at least have hinted about it if there was one such an arrangement.

Note: everlasting/eternal as used here means the 'intention' of being forever, provided, comma, impassable or irreparable events do not occur to 'cut it off' or nullify, or revise it as God chooses, and he did. He extended the invitation to all nations as Abraham was promised.

Blessings,

APAK
 
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Ronald Nolette

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There's a bit to comment here, so I will just start with your two first questions...

1. Answer...
Yes, the eternal Covenant was/is made originally to the physical/blood-line seed of Israel and because of repeated faithlessness and idols worship to name a couple of big reasons for sending divorce papers across to them, the LORD literally and spiritually, abandoned the physical seed of Israel in this Covenant and ended making/extending this everlasting Covenant to all the entire spiritual seed of Israel- that was the promise given to Abraham as well; and they were from all corners of the literal and physical globe. This all was foreseen by our Creator of course.

Now those in faith as were the Prophets an key people of God, and many of the common Israelites credited with righteousness all were included and stayed a a part of this same original Covenant, although incorporated with other faithful nations and peoples going forth. There has never been a return to the original unique Covenant to a physical Israel only, even if you could still recognize one today, and you cannot as they are in all nations today, regardless if Christ knows who they are. And I'm not thinking they are the same physical current political State of Israel either. They are not.

And why would YHWH promise a spiritual seed to Abraham and then say later, I broke my promise and only want the original literal Israel back again to be a part of it? Abraham's seed would be many, as the grains of sands on a beach. YHWH made good on his promise as all believers are under this same original Covenant today as a new creation in Christ. It is the spiritual and not the physical Israel as Paul writes in Galatians and Romans especially.

Galatians 6: 15-16...

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The true Israel of God has always been planned by YHWH to be spiritual, not literal or physical. Paul truly recognized this and he wrote it down. He never foresaw a future physical Israel with a separate Covenant in play, against the other nations, when Christ returns. He would at least have hinted about it if there was one such an arrangement.

Note: everlasting/eternal as used here means the 'intention' of being forever, provided, comma, impassable or irreparable events do not occur to 'cut it off' or nullify, or revise it as God chooses, and he did. He extended the invitation to all nations as Abraham was promised.

Blessings,

APAK


Just one problem. god foretold Israel would be set aside (not disowned) for the sake of bringing in the gentiles.

God fully intends to restore physical Israel into the covenant (the new covenant) Tjhe new covenant has not gone into effect yet. Gentiles are gentiles and not spiritual seed of Israel.

the spiritual seed of Israel is simply saved Israelis throughout the world.

The modern state of Israel is fulfilment of biblical prophecy, especially Ez. 37-39

But as far as the nation of Israel as a physical nation being restored?

Ezekiel 20:33-38
King James Version

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.


We see Gods promise to gather them back in anger. The word plead here means enter into judgment with them. God will bring them into the New Covenant. He will cleanse the people from the rebels.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Here is another specific promise to the physical nation of Israel to enter into a new covenant because they broke the old covenant. When will they enter into the new covenant? AFTER THOSE DAYS! Now without getting into all the reasons why- After those days when not modifed by a specific time frame refers to the tribulation, which the main purpose is to prepare the nation of Israel to receive her Messiah.


Zechariah 13:8-9
King James Version

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.


There will come a point in history when 2/3 of all living Jews will be killed. The remaining 1/3 will call upon the Lord and be saved!
Hitler killed 1/3 of all Jews. During the reign of antichrist, 2/3 will die.

As for the Galatian passage?

Galatians 6:16
King James Version

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The Israel of God refers to righteous Jews! Second grade grammar reveals that there are two groups invovled in Paul's blessing.
1. To as many as walk according to this rule.
2. Also the Israel of God.

To think that this means the same people (as if the church is the Israel of God) is twisting the clear meaning of Scripture and accusing God of erroneous use of grammar.
 

Heart2Soul

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Much debate lately about whether literal Israel actually plays a part in end-times prophecy or not, so I will start a thread for it. For those who think God is done with literal Israel, let me start by asking a few questions to kick things off: Does not the Bible say that God has made an everlasting covenant with the descendants of Abraham? And what should early church Christians have been looking for if the Antichrist was not going to conquer literal Israel and sit himself in the actual temple in Jerusalem?

Let's start with the first question:

1. Does not the Bible say that God made an everlasting covenant with the descendants of Abraham?

There are numerous passages on this, but let's start with the following:

Thus says the LORD, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the LORD of hosts is his name: 36 “If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the LORD, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever.” 37 Thus says the LORD: “If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be explored, then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done, declares the LORD” (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

The apostle Paul confirmed that these promises were still in effect to literal Israel when he said the following:

I ask, then, has God rejected his people [the Jews]? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has NOT rejected his people whom he foreknew” (Romans 11:1-2).

Now some argue here that God annulled His covenant with the Jews in A.D. 70 after they were unfaithful to Him by rejecting their Messiah, but this goes against what Paul said elsewhere in Romans:

Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4 By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.” (Romans 3:1-4).

So my first question is, does or does not scripture teach that God truly did make an everlasting covenant with literal Israel, one that has not yet passed away and never will?


2. What should early church Christians have been looking for if the Antichrist was not going to conquer literal Israel and take his seat in the actual temple of God in Jerusalem?

The passage for this is 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4:

Now we implore you, brothers, by the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him, that you not become quickly disturbed in mind nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by report, nor by letter as if written by us [intimating] that the Day of the Lord is here. No one should deceive you in any way if the apostasy has not yet come first and that man of lawlessness has been revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above everything that is called God or is worshipped, so as for him to sit down in the temple of God, exhibiting himself that he is God. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

What Paul in essence was telling them here was this: Do not become concerned that the Lord might be returning already and the Day of the Lord - the Day of His vengeance - is about to begin, if you have not yet seen the Antichrist emerge in Jerusalem, since the coming of the Antichrist is prophesied to precede the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the "apostasy" Paul was referring to here. The Antichrist would emerge, march upon Jerusalem and conquer it, and then take his seat in the temple of God in Jerusalem, in effect proclaiming himself to be God in manifestation. They fully expected this is potentially what a Roman emperor might soon do, because the potential for war was building between Rome and Judea, and Emperor Gaius (better known as Caligula) had indeed attempted to do these very things around A.D. 40, only he was thwarted from doing so and murdered before he could carry out his plans.

But both Christians and Jews now fully expected that the fulfillment of the prophecies concerning the Antichrist were now on their way to fulfillment.

Now, here is my question to those who subscribe to Replacement Theology; the idea that Israel has now been replaced in the eyes of God by the church. If this event was actually instead referring to some Pope one day taking his seat in the church and proclaiming himself to in effect be "God," wasn't Paul being misleading to the Thessalonians? This suggests that Paul was somehow warning them that a false leader would take his seat as head of the church, when at that time there was no head of the entire church, and there would not be a single monarchical bishop who would wield authority over the church for many centuries to come yet.

So what should early church Christians have been looking for if the Antichrist was not going to actually conquer literal Israel and take his seat in the actual temple of God in Jerusalem?

I suppose that will start things off. I will tag several people I think might be interested in this discussion, including several who I know actually take the opposite position that I do on this subject. I only ask that we be polite and respectful, and discuss things together in a Spirit of brotherly love.

In Christ,
Hidden In Him

@Heart2Soul, @marks, @quietthinker, @Backlit, @Mayflower, @charity, @Waiting on him, @APAK.
You did an excellent job here brother!
Definitely have an anointing in apostleship and teaching....you sound just like Paul!
 

Ronald Nolette

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What Paul in essence was telling them here was this: Do not become concerned that the Lord might be returning already and the Day of the Lord - the Day of His vengeance - is about to begin, if you have not yet seen the Antichrist emerge in Jerusalem, since the coming of the Antichrist is prophesied to precede the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the "apostasy" Paul was referring to here. The Antichrist would emerge, march upon Jerusalem and conquer it, and then take his seat in the temple of God in Jerusalem, in effect proclaiming himself to be God in manifestation. They fully expected this is potentially what a Roman emperor might soon do, because the potential for war was building between Rome and Judea, and Emperor Gaius (better known as Caligula) had indeed attempted to do these very things around A.D. 40, only he was thwarted from doing so and murdered before he could carry out his plans.

But both Christians and Jews now fully expected that the fulfillment of the prophecies concerning the Antichrist were now on their way to fulfillment.

Now, here is my question to those who subscribe to Replacement Theology; the idea that Israel has now been replaced in the eyes of God by the church. If this event was actually instead referring to some Pope one day taking his seat in the church and proclaiming himself to in effect be "God," wasn't Paul being misleading to the Thessalonians? This suggests that Paul was somehow warning them that a false leader would take his seat as head of the church, when at that time there was no head of the entire church, and there would not be a single monarchical bishop who would wield authority over the church for many centuries to come yet.


Love your post BTW.

Believe it or not , loads of people reject a rebuilt physical temple and declare that only the church now is the temple of God. With the antichrist ( a human being) definitely sitting in the temple, they are forced to have have to accept that the antichrist will possess all believers when he arrives.

As for the hideous doctrine of replacement theology. We need to realize that the church has not replaced Israel, we are a parentheses so to speak in gods dealing with the nation of Israel! As you so rightly pointed out, god has made everlasting covenants with the physical nation of Israel and He will keep His promises.

But this setting aside of the nation was foretold as well as there regathering in unbelief and their purging and ultimate restoration.

also foretold was that during their temporary setting aside, God would gather in gentiles from all lands. The church is that promise and as Paul rightly said, once the full number of gentiles have come in, ALL Israel will be saved!
 

Hidden In Him

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@APAK and @Ronald Nolette. Thanks for the responses, guys. Good to see the thread underway. Just keep things polite and peaceable.

Looking forward to giving your posts some thought and likely responding in the mornings maybe.

God bless you both!
You did an excellent job here brother!
Definitely have an anointing in apostleship and teaching....you sound just like Paul!

Let's not get carried away here, LoL. I'm just happy to be a teacher in the Lord. :)

Glad if I sound like him, only my prayer is that hopefully some day I am actually accurate like him. But again, I'm not about to assume anything just yet, LoL.

Blessings, and thanks for the nice sentiments anyway : )
- H
 

amigo de christo

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The covenant is in the seed of abraham . And that seed is Christ .
If GOD were done with the jews , then all the apostels would have been gentile at birth .
The thing is , if a jew or a gentile does not come to Christ , then they do not belong to GOD as i think we all know this .
Paul , being a jew at birth , knew himself that the only hope for a jew was JESUS , just as any hope for a gentile was JESUS .
The true children of Abraham are the jews and gentiles who walk by Faith , Faith in one name and in one name alone . JESUS CHRIST .
Now , LET THE LORD BE PRAISED .
I want to make one point real clear . Though i think we all know it .
If even the jews reject JESUS , THEY JUST REJECTED GOD HIMSELF . Let us ponder on that one .
Oh but for all the jews and gentiles who do BELIEVE IN CHRIST , we are now ONE FAT HAPPY FOLD IN CHRIST .
Let the LORD be praised my friends .
 

APAK

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Just one problem. god foretold Israel would be set aside (not disowned) for the sake of bringing in the gentiles.

God fully intends to restore physical Israel into the covenant (the new covenant) Tjhe new covenant has not gone into effect yet. Gentiles are gentiles and not spiritual seed of Israel.

the spiritual seed of Israel is simply saved Israelis throughout the world.

The modern state of Israel is fulfilment of biblical prophecy, especially Ez. 37-39

But as far as the nation of Israel as a physical nation being restored?

Ezekiel 20:33-38
King James Version

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.


We see Gods promise to gather them back in anger. The word plead here means enter into judgment with them. God will bring them into the New Covenant. He will cleanse the people from the rebels.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Here is another specific promise to the physical nation of Israel to enter into a new covenant because they broke the old covenant. When will they enter into the new covenant? AFTER THOSE DAYS! Now without getting into all the reasons why- After those days when not modifed by a specific time frame refers to the tribulation, which the main purpose is to prepare the nation of Israel to receive her Messiah.


Zechariah 13:8-9
King James Version

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.


There will come a point in history when 2/3 of all living Jews will be killed. The remaining 1/3 will call upon the Lord and be saved!
Hitler killed 1/3 of all Jews. During the reign of antichrist, 2/3 will die.

As for the Galatian passage?

Galatians 6:16
King James Version

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The Israel of God refers to righteous Jews! Second grade grammar reveals that there are two groups invovled in Paul's blessing.
1. To as many as walk according to this rule.
2. Also the Israel of God.

To think that this means the same people (as if the church is the Israel of God) is twisting the clear meaning of Scripture and accusing God of erroneous use of grammar.

Ron, I would love to respond to your post(s)fully as I have not done so for these same reasons I will tell about. And I do not want to go down endless rabbit holes with you as I've done in the past with a chance to take a breathe.... You are again trying to force a theory into scripture and you have made holes again in your arguments, like a leaking bucket. It really does not hold water.

Just look at even your use of the word 'gentile'...it is a disgusting term to be used today for any true believer. It was coined from Latin as to separate a Jew for other heathen nations or non-Jews. I would suggest using the term 'nation(s)' as it was intended in scripture, when it makes sense in a sentence, and not this awful term gentile that is today actively used to support, as you are doing now, a separate Covenant and Israel theory. I'm not a gentile at all,although you can classify yourself as one.......

Blessings to you

APAK
 

amigo de christo

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replacement theology is wrong .
We didnt replace , we were simply grafted into that tree . And there is but one way into that TREE .
JESUS CHRIST . I am the TREE , ye are the branches . That is WHO the TREE IS my friends .
So it goes without saying , but i say it anyway , That if ones faith is not IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE
They aint in that tree . Whether jew or whether gentile .
One plan of salvation . GOD had this plan all along . JESUS CHRIST . Now on that note
you all already know what i am about to say , LET THE KING BE PRAISED .
 

Ronald Nolette

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Ron, I would love to respond to your post(s)fully as I have not done so for these same reasons I will tell about. And I do not want to go down endless rabbit holes with you as I've done in the past with a chance to take a breathe.... You are again trying to force a theory into scripture and you have made holes again in your arguments, like a leaking bucket. It really does not hold water.

Just look at even your use of the word 'gentile'...it is a disgusting term to be used today for any true believer. It was coined from Latin as to separate a Jew for other heathen nations or non-Jews. I would suggest using the term 'nation(s)' as it was intended in scripture, when it makes sense in a sentence, and not this awful term gentile that is today actively used to support, as you are doing now, a separate Covenant and Israel theory. I'm not a gentile at all,although you can classify yourself as one.......

Blessings to you

APAK

And you are in error again.

I simply quote Scripture as written and accept it as written. You allegorize Scripture to adopt "Replacement Theology".

Well as for your false allegation that gentile was a Latin term- once again you are wrong. It was used 30X in the OT long before Latin became a language Israel even knew of! Paul even used the term. If it was good enough for Paul, it is good enough for us! It simply means anyone who is not a physical descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Before I even agree or disagree, I need you to define what you mean by a "separate Covenant and Israel theory"

But let me ask you a question. As you love to allegorize so much of OT prophecy away to mean something other than written, why do you reject say the Jw's allegorizing away the physical resurrection? Both the resurrectionand restoration of Israel had many witnesses who seen or heard, so why do you accept your allegorization and reject their allegorizing the Scriptures?
 

Ronald Nolette

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Ron, I would love to respond to your post(s)fully as I have not done so for these same reasons I will tell about. And I do not want to go down endless rabbit holes with you as I've done in the past with a chance to take a breathe.... You are again trying to force a theory into scripture and you have made holes again in your arguments, like a leaking bucket. It really does not hold water.

Just look at even your use of the word 'gentile'...it is a disgusting term to be used today for any true believer. It was coined from Latin as to separate a Jew for other heathen nations or non-Jews. I would suggest using the term 'nation(s)' as it was intended in scripture, when it makes sense in a sentence, and not this awful term gentile that is today actively used to support, as you are doing now, a separate Covenant and Israel theory. I'm not a gentile at all,although you can classify yourself as one.......

Blessings to you

APAK


Allegorizers that remove God's plan for the nation He made an everlasting covenant with (called the New Covenant, the Abrahamic covenant, the Davidic covenant, the Palestinian Covenant) have a real problem. When you remove all the niceties, take away all the soft talk and back pedalling away, their motto concerning Gods promises to Israel is this:

" I KNOW WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS, BUT THIS IS WHAT IT REALLY MEANS!" As if God needs people to read between the lines, or interpret plain language for HIm.

Replacement theology like yours says god is finished with the nation of Israel as a nation. BUT:

Acts 1:6-8
King James Version

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


Let us look at this simple reply of Jesus.

1. He did not tell the Apostles that Israel was through (maybe He didn't know?)
2. He didn't say that the promises to Israel are now to be transferred to the soon coming church.
3. He simply told them it wasn't for them to know the time the Father has kept to Himself!
4. That is not a rejection or a CONDITIONAL, BUT JESUS TELLING THEM, IT WILL HAPPEN WHEN GOD THE FATHER DECIDES!

How replacemtn people can look at this passage and still say God is through with Israel as a nation and then also violate rules of grammar implying God is lousy at inspiring His word is beyond me.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Again, to all concerned, please keep this conversation polite and respectful. Please.

This is my thread, and I have specifically requested that in the OP.

@Heart2Soul, please clean up any posts if things get too heated in this thread. So far we're ok, but I see storm clouds gathering, and I don't want to have to create this thread all over again.

Thanks,
- H
 

amigo de christo

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Again, to all concerned, please keep this conversation polite and respectful. Please.

This is my thread, and I have specifically requested that in the OP.

@Heart2Soul, please clean up any posts if things get too heated in this thread. So far we're ok, but I see storm clouds gathering, and I don't want to have to create this thread all over again.

Thanks,
- H
The way i see it my friend , always sound the truth out , be grave , serious , but omit the name calling my friends .
Not that names bother me , i been called many names , but i say this because true lambs can easily make the point
without all the name calling involved . I would list some of those names , i myself have been called , but quite a few
belong in the four letter word category or words to that effect . Anti christ and son of perdition are on that list .
But , it is what it is . IT dont stop me from warning nor loving those who hate me . I can only warn and remind folks
and pray for them . Now let the KING be praised my friend . Yes indeed . HOPE IN JESUS
is a hope that abounds no matter what comes against it . YES IT DOES . PRAISE THE GLORIOUS LORD .
 

Waiting on him

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There will come a point in history when 2/3 of all living Jews will be killed. The remaining 1/3 will call upon the Lord and be saved!
Hitler killed 1/3 of all Jews. During the reign of antichrist, 2/3 will die.
This happened in the first century, when rome destroyed Israel in 70 ad 1/3 escaped as a result of the warning Jesus gave in Matthew the other 2/3 where their observing passover. That’s what all the displaced Jews of that time did, travel to the temple to honor God at passover I’m certain it came as a huge shock when they were encompassed by Rome and slaughtered. There where many opportunities to hear the gospel prior to this and receive Christ as messiah. Paul stated that every creature under heaven ( Israel ) all Israel had heard it.
 
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APAK

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And you are in error again.

I simply quote Scripture as written and accept it as written. You allegorize Scripture to adopt "Replacement Theology".

Well as for your false allegation that gentile was a Latin term- once again you are wrong. It was used 30X in the OT long before Latin became a language Israel even knew of! Paul even used the term. If it was good enough for Paul, it is good enough for us! It simply means anyone who is not a physical descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Before I even agree or disagree, I need you to define what you mean by a "separate Covenant and Israel theory"

But let me ask you a question. As you love to allegorize so much of OT prophecy away to mean something other than written, why do you reject say the Jw's allegorizing away the physical resurrection? Both the resurrectionand restoration of Israel had many witnesses who seen or heard, so why do you accept your allegorization and reject their allegorizing the Scriptures?
I'm back again. I will be nice despite HIH highly encouraging it. I usually am, right?

For the last time, I hope it is anyway, I do not 'preach' any type of Replacement theory. Or allegorize anythng in this regard. It is all scriptural. Most that do not obey or adhere to this dual Covenant theory as you do...I guess you might call it something else...is usually labeled as one. As amigo just said we are grafted into the same tree of Christ...no replacement at all. In fact, those faithful in the OT and in the transition period OT to NT remained, and are of the natural branches of the same tree, others were broken off, and other nations or nationals (never gentiles...a bad and ugly word) are then grafted into the same tree on a national/tribe level. No one is replaced no one....we are both merged into Christ the tree and root that feeds us both...we both have his Spirit...NO Replacement.

I hope you know what I'm saying this time Ron...Great Day..APAK
 

Waiting on him

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2 Thessalonians 2:2 KJV
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2 Thessalonians 2:2 KJV

Greek: ἐνίστημι
Transliteration: enistēmi
Pronunciation: en-is'-tay-mee
Definition: From G1722 and G2476; to place onhand that is (reflexively) impend (participle) be instant: - come be at hand present.
KJV Usage: present (3x), things present (2x), be at hand (1x), come (1x).
Occurs: 7
In verses: 7

AT HAND, could not imply 2000+ years later.
 

Hidden In Him

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There has never been a return to the original unique Covenant to a physical Israel only, even if you could still recognize one today, and you cannot as they are in all nations today, regardless if Christ knows who they are.

Hey, APAK. Thank you for the response.

About this statement right here, when do you think God abandoned that covenant, because as of the writing of Romans, Paul apparently believed it was still valid:

For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. (Romans 9:3-5)

The word "belong" is used twice in this passage, and suggests the covenant was theirs as a possession. But anyway, when do you think God "divorced" them from it, as you say?
And why would YHWH promise a spiritual seed to Abraham and then say later, I broke my promise and only want the original literal Israel back again to be a part of it? Abraham's seed would be many, as the grains of sands on a beach. YHWH made good on his promise as all believers are under this same original Covenant today as a new creation in Christ. It is the spiritual and not the physical Israel as Paul writes in Galatians and Romans especially.

I think this confuses things a little, though. God's promise was to literal Israel in the flesh, it's just that it ultimately applied even more so spiritually. You see, I don't believe that the covenant God made with us spiritually annuls the covenant God made with them physically.
The true Israel of God has always been planned by YHWH to be spiritual, not literal or physical. Paul truly recognized this and he wrote it down. He never foresaw a future physical Israel with a separate Covenant in play, against the other nations, when Christ returns.

I think He planned for both, and for a large portion of physical Israel to become spiritual Israel in the end-times, when they finally realize that the New Testament prophecies regarding both Jesus Christ and the Antichrist were true, and are being fulfilled.

I know you think I am not listening, but after reading your post I nevertheless have to say I'm just not convinced. It doesn't seem to deal with the following passage of scripture well, where Paul said that God would be faithful even if the Israelites were not:

Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4 By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.” (Romans 3:1-4).

 
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Hidden In Him

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Galatians 6:16
King James Version


16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The Israel of God refers to righteous Jews! Second grade grammar reveals that there are two groups invovled in Paul's blessing.
1. To as many as walk according to this rule.
2. Also the Israel of God.


I liked your response, Ronald, with the exception of this passage above. I don't think it's consistent with the preceding verses to believe he was talking about physical Israel in this one.

13 Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. 14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy upon the Israel of God. (Galatians 6:13-16)

The preceding verses he stated that neither circumcision or uncircumcision availed anything anymore as far as salvation was concerned. Only the cross of Christ, and those who were made new creations in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile. I don't think this nullifies the covenant made with literal Israel because as you said God will bring many of them into the new covenant before the end, but I think this verse is talking about spiritual Israel only.

 

Hidden In Him

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Love your post BTW.

Believe it or not , loads of people reject a rebuilt physical temple and declare that only the church now is the temple of God. With the antichrist ( a human being) definitely sitting in the temple, they are forced to have have to accept that the antichrist will possess all believers when he arrives.

As for the hideous doctrine of replacement theology. We need to realize that the church has not replaced Israel, we are a parentheses so to speak in gods dealing with the nation of Israel! As you so rightly pointed out, god has made everlasting covenants with the physical nation of Israel and He will keep His promises.

But this setting aside of the nation was foretold as well as there regathering in unbelief and their purging and ultimate restoration.

also foretold was that during their temporary setting aside, God would gather in gentiles from all lands. The church is that promise and as Paul rightly said, once the full number of gentiles have come in, ALL Israel will be saved!

Good post!
 

Hidden In Him

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replacement theology is wrong .
We didnt replace , we were simply grafted into that tree . And there is but one way into that TREE .
JESUS CHRIST . I am the TREE , ye are the branches .

Now here is a tremendous post. I will quote the passages in full for further reference. I think they need to be addressed:

1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. [a]But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day.” 9 And David says: “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a recompense to them. 10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always.”

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! 13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and [d]fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! 34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor?” 35 “Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?”36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:1-36)

______________

I will make this Question #3: Does not the following verse say that true spiritual eyesight will be restored to literal Israel after the fulness of the Gentiles has finally come to God?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.