loaves & fishes

[Bibliocentrist]

You probably all know the story of the loaves and fishes?Mark 6:35-44 (Mt 14:15-21; Lk 9:12-17; Jn 6:5-13) Jesus feeds 5000 with 5 loaves and 2 fish, 12 small baskets of pieces leftover.Mark 8:1-21 (Mt 15:32-38) Jesus feeds 4000 with 7 loaves and "few" fish, 7 large baskets of fish left over.Some while ago I noticed that there seem to be numeric symbolism as there were possible parallels with other things like Virgo holding # in one hand and # in other hand; or beast in Rev having 5 fallen heads and 1 is and 1 coming?According to the Amplified Bible Mark 8:21 says "and He kept repeating, do you not yet understand?" which I noticed implies it must have some significant symbolic/prophetic significance.So I thought it would be a good topic to get you investigating all possible significances. I will now give you what I have so far (betw after first Virgo noticing and before Amp verse noticing)Jn 6:4 "Passover, the feast of the Jews, was approaching".Unleavened loaves?)12 baskets = Israel, 5 loaves ~ torah?7 baskets = (7) Church(es), 3 days = JC in tomb.12 -> 7.4000 might relate to 144000 which might relate to 4000 of DSScrolls sect?2 fish might be JnBap & JesChr? or pre/post Fl? or JC & HSp? or 2 witnesses? or 2 testaments? or ...?5 loaves broken = 10?If 5000/4000 was only men excld women & children then prehaps x 2 or 3 (or 4)?5000 sat down in companies of 100s (generation of Abe?) &/or 50s (jubilee/pentecost?), = ?"200 denarii to feed 5000" = ?5 loaves + 7 loaves = 12 loaves?5 loaves + 2 fish = 7?7 loaves + [3?] fish = 10 (number of gentiles)?(5 loaves + [2] = 7 loaves?)(7 baskets + [5] = 12 baskets?)

 

[tim_from_pa]

(Bibliocentrist;64007)
You probably all know the story of the loaves and fishes?Mark 6:35-44 (Mt 14:15-21; Lk 9:12-17; Jn 6:5-13) Jesus feeds 5000 with 5 loaves and 2 fish, 12 small baskets of pieces leftover.Mark 8:1-21 (Mt 15:32-38) Jesus feeds 4000 with 7 loaves and "few" fish, 7 large baskets of fish left over.Some while ago I noticed that there seem to be numeric symbolism as there were possible parallels with other things like Virgo holding # in one hand and # in other hand; or beast in Rev having 5 fallen heads and 1 is and 1 coming?According to the Amplified Bible Mark 8:21 says "and He kept repeating, do you not yet understand?" which I noticed implies it must have some significant symbolic/prophetic significance.So I thought it would be a good topic to get you investigating all possible significances. I will now give you what I have so far (betw after first Virgo noticing and before Amp verse noticing)Jn 6:4 "Passover, the feast of the Jews, was approaching".Unleavened loaves?)12 baskets = Israel, 5 loaves ~ torah?7 baskets = (7) Church(es), 3 days = JC in tomb.12 -> 7.4000 might relate to 144000 which might relate to 4000 of DSScrolls sect?2 fish might be JnBap & JesChr? or pre/post Fl? or JC & HSp? or 2 witnesses? or 2 testaments? or ...?5 loaves broken = 10?If 5000/4000 was only men excld women & children then prehaps x 2 or 3 (or 4)?5000 sat down in companies of 100s (generation of Abe?) &/or 50s (jubilee/pentecost?), = ?"200 denarii to feed 5000" = ?5 loaves + 7 loaves = 12 loaves?5 loaves + 2 fish = 7?7 loaves + [3?] fish = 10 (number of gentiles)?(5 loaves + [2] = 7 loaves?)(7 baskets + [5] = 12 baskets?)
You have some interesting thoughts here. My jury is out exactly what the numerics truly mean, although most assuredly they do mean something.In the case of the five loaves and two fishes, I proposed already that the number 5 represents grace, and the two fishes having to do with the age of Pisces. We know that Pisces has one "horizontal" fish along the ecliptic and one pointing northward. This represents both the earthly seed of Israel (Ecliptic) and those of Israel of the heavenly calling. In Genesis 48:16 Jacob said of Ephraim and Manasseh, "let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth." The marginal rendering is "like fishes" designating the gospel age when Israel becoming many nations would have those within it to the heavenly calling and spreading the gospel (represented by grace and 5 loaves of bread being the Word of God as food) to all nations. The leftovers of 12 suggests that indeed the application is to Israel where they will be filled.The prophecy of Genesis 48:16 would therefore have to occur in that age of Pisces. The Second coming of Christ and the New Kingdom will be the age of Aquarius which is already coming upon us.This is clearly my opinion, but not far-fetched given the context of the story.

 

[Christina]

THE SPIRITUAL SIGNIFICANCE OF NUMBERSThe following numbers correspond to the meanings found in the Bible. This Biblical tool, Numerology, in its purest sense, brings forth and clarifies that which is written.1 Unity; New beginnings 2 Union; Division; Wittnessing 3 Resurrection; Spiritual completeness; Fathers perfection 4 Creation; The world; Creative works 5 Grace; God's goodness; Pentatuech (first five books) 6 Weakness of man; Manifestation of sin ; Evils of Satan 7 Divine completeness and perfection 8 New birth; New beginnings 9 Fruit of the spirit; Divine completeness from the Father 10 Testimony; Law and responsiblity 11 Disorder and judgement 12 Governmental perfection 13 Apostacy; depravity and rebellion 14 Deliverance; Salvation 15 Rest 16 Love 17 Victory 18 Bondage 19 Faith 20 Redemption 21 Exceeding sinfulness of sin 22 Light 23 Death 24 The Priesthood 25 Repentance; The forgiveness of sins 26 The Gospel of Christ 27 Preaching of the Gospel 28 Eternal life 29 Departure 30 Blood of Christ; Dedication 31 Offspring 32 Covenant 33 Promise 34 Naming of a son 35 Hope 36 Enemy 37 The word of our Father 38 Slavery 39 Disease 40 Trials; Probation; Testings 42 Israel's opression; First advent 44 Judgement of the World 45 Preservation 50 Holy Spirit; Pentacost 60 Pride 66 Idol worship 70 Punishment and restoration of Israel; Universality 100 Election; Children of the promise 119 Spiritual perfection and victory 7*17=119 120 Divine period of probation 144 The Spirit guided life 200 Insufficiency 600 Warfare 666 Antichrist 777 Christ 888 Holy Spirit; The sum of Tree of Life 1000 Divine completeness and Fathers glory 4000 Salvation of the world through the blood of the Lamb ( Those who chose between Christ and Antichrist) 6000 Deception of Antichrist; Second advent 7000 Final judgement; Zadok 144,000 Those numbered of IsrealThe Companion Bible, Appendex # 10 goes into a deeper explination of how numbers are used in Scripture, not merely as in Nature, with supernatural design, but with spiritual significance , which may be summarised as follows.ONE. Denotes unity, and commencement. The first occurrences of words or utterances denote their essential significance, in interpretation. Words that occur only once, in the originals, are emphatic and important. First day, Light. The first ocurrences of all important words and expressions are noted in the margin.TWO. Denotes difference. If two different persons agree in testimony it is conclusive. Otherwise two implies opposition, enmity, and division, as was the work of the Second day. Compare the use of the word "double" applied to "heart", "tongue", "mind", etc.THREE. Denotes completeness, as three lines complete a plane figure. Hence, three is significant of Divine perfection and completeness. The third day completes the fundamentals of creation-work. The fourth, fifth, and sixth days are the counterpart and repetition of the first, second, and third, and correspond respectively. (See the structure of Genesis 1) The number, three, includes resurrection also; for on the third day the earth rose up out of the deep, and fruit rose up out of the earth.FOUR. Denotes creative works (3 + 1), and always has reference to the material creation, as pertaining to the earth, and things "under the sun", and things terrestrial. FIVE. Denotes Divine grace. It is 4 + 1. It is God adding His gifts and blessing to the works of His hands. The Hebrew Ha'aretz (the earth), by "Gematria" (that is to say the addition of the numerical value of the letters together) is a multiple of four, while Hashamayim (the heavens) is a multiple of five. The Gematria of (charis), the Greek for Grace, is also a multiple of five. It is the leading factor in the Tabernacle measurements. SIX. Denotes the human number. Man was created on the sixth day; and this first ocurrence of the number makes it (and all multiples of it) the hall-mark of all connected with man. He works six days. The hours of his day are a multiple of six. Athaliah usurped the throne of Judah six years. The great men who have stood out in defiance of God (Goliath and Nebuchadnezzar and Antichrist) are all emphatically marked by this number. SEVEN. Denotes spiritual perfection. It is the number or hall-mark of the Holy Spirit's work. He is the Author of God's Word, and seven is stamped on it as the water-mark is seen in the manufacture of paper. He is the Author and Giver of life; and seven is the number which regulates every period of Incubation and Gestation, in insects, birds, animals, and man.EIGHT. Denotes resurrection, regeneration; a new beginning or commencement. The eighth is a new first. Hence the octave in music, colour, days of the week, etc. It is the number which has to do with the LORD, Who rose on the eighth, or new "first-day". This is , therefore, the Dominical number. By Gematria (see above), (Jesus) makes the numbers 888. It, or its multiple is impressed on all that has to do with the Lord's Names, the Lord's People, the Lord's works.NINE. Denotes Finality of judgement. It is 3 x 3, the product of Divine completeness. The number nine, or its factors or multiples, is seen in all cases when judgement is the subject.TEN. Denotes Ordinal perfection. Another new first; after the ninth digit, when numeration commences anew.ELEVEN. Denotes disorder, disorganization, because it is one short of the number twelve (see below). TWELVE. Denotes Governmental perfection. It is the number or factor of all numbers connected with government: whether by Tribes or Apostles, or in measurements of time, or in things which have to do with government in the heavens and the earth.THIRTEEN. Denotes rebellion, apostasy, defection, disintegration, revolution, etc. The first occurrence fixes this (Genesis 14:4); and the second confirms it (Genesis 17:25). It, and its multiples, are seen in all numbers, and in the Gematria (see above) of all names and passages that are associated with rebellion, etc.SEVENTEEN. Denotes a combination of spirit and order (10 + 7). It is the seventh prime number (as 13 is the sixth prime number).Other numbers follow the laws which govern the smaller numbers, as being their factors, sums, products or multiples: that is to say 24 is 12 x 2, a higher form of 12.25 = 52. Grace intensified. 27 = 33. Divinity intensified. 28 = 7 x 4. Spiritual perfection in connection with the earth. 29 = 33. Intensifying of Divine judgement. 30 = 3 x 10. Divine perfection, applied to order. 40 = 10 x 4. Divine order applied to earthly things. Hence, the number of probation.The four perfect numbers, 3,7,10, and 12, have for their product the remarkable number 2,520. It is the Least Common Multiple of the ten digits governing all numeration; and can, therefore, be divided by each of nine digits, without a remainder. It is the number of chronological perfection (7 x 360).1 The whole subject may be studied in Dr. Bullinger's work on Number in Scripture (London: Eyre and Spottiswoode). []A must read for any serious Bible student Denver has provided a PDF copy at the link belowhttp://www.christianityboard.com/num...=6129#post6129 __________________

 

[Jordan]

Great post Christina, but I posted your link cause your link is broken.http://www.christianityboard.com/number-sc...p=6129#post6129

 

[VictoryinJesus]

John 6:4-12 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh. [5] When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat? [6] And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do. [7] Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little. [8] One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto him, [9] There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many? [10] And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand. [11] And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would. [12] When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.

John 6:13,32-39 Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten. [32] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. [33] For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. [34] Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. [35] And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. [36] But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. [37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. [38] For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. [39] And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Consider ‘Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.’ With ‘And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.’

 

[Ziggy]

My cup runneth over...
Always left overs.
I love leftovers, specially thanksgiving dinner.
Wow. ok

Seeing no one's been really playing in this playground, I thought I'd take a ride on the swing and see how hight I can go :)

Bread.. the first time this Bread (Word of God) when I really understood the meaning.. Bread = Word.. I sprouted wings.
Then the manna made sense. And then the hidden manna.. oh my.. just like hidden treasure.
The breaking of the bread.. the sharing.
And then somehow I lost track of the journey.. I guess the world diverted my attention and I got distracted.
I went looking for this Bread, but the forum was gone
I had a lot of friends there. Some nice, some not so nice, but friends just the same.
Like here. :)
Anybody here ever looking for Lone or Lone_Traveler... here I am. :)

Numbers are cool too, like the 153 fish that Peter caught.
That's Pi I think.. the same thing the Pyramids use.
Something about the circumference.. what makes the world go round.
I don't know, math was never my best subject.
I was still working on short division when I left school.
Never quite got the hang of it.
But this Gamatria? that's cool.
I still don't know how it works.. kind of like algebra.. uggh.

Loaves... many Bread.. divided into many pieces.
Like the Bible. Many Books.. divided into chapters and verses.
And the leftovers are still being written.
Ye are my epistles...hold on..
crazy..
2Co 3:3
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
need another version:
NLT: Clearly, you are a letter from Christ showing the result of our ministry among you. This “letter” is written not with pen and ink, but with the Spirit of the living God. It is carved not on tablets of stone, but on human hearts.

And the books were opened.. God is gonna read your letter..mm hmm
And then he is going to open His Book and see if they sound the same... mm hmm

Fishes and Loaves.. Rings like.. Silver and Gold, Silver and Gold.. I forget the rest.
Anywhooo..

Fishes on the other hand.. what pray tell are these?
I haven't gone digging for that yet.

Fish = Dagah.. why does that sound familiar?? Wasn't there a Fish god named Dagon? without the R
Leviathan.. Dragon
Anywho God said man will have dominion over the fish in the sea. And the devil too.

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Oh Samson!
In the Hebrew Bible, Dagon is particularly the god of the Philistines with temples at Beth-dagon in the territory of the tribe of Asher (Joshua 19.27), and in Gaza (see Judges 16.23, which tells soon after how the temple is destroyed by Samson as his last act).

Samson took out Dagon..
He had dominion over him, kicked his... nevermind..
I think he still hanging around though.
Some people still wear his hat.

So Jesus took the loaves of Gods word and the fishes of other gods words and fed them to the people.
NO WAY..
Why not?
Because the bible says you cant mix fresh and salt water together, thats why..
ok then..
moving along..

Fish:
Fresh water fish vs. Salt water fish?
Salt.. oh there's Lot's wife again.. brother..

Can you..?
I'm.. trying

FISH: Peter caught fish. In fact most of them were fishermen.
But Jesus said he would make them fisher's of Men.
Might need a bigger net huh?

well, depends on the size of the fish, I mean look at the fish that ate Jonah..

That was one big fish indeed.
Some say it was even a fish story..
But I believe it really did happen.
Me too.

I like fish. I had salmon for supper last night.
I even have some leftover for lunch, or, well, you never know when you may have company.

That's true, I haven't had any company for years.. but you should always be prepared/
That's right. Because the bible says you never know when an angel might come knocking on your door.

Well, wouldn't that be something?
It sure would :)

I'm just playing here until someone comes back for their playground.
In the meantime, Thankyou for letting me ride your swing :)
HUGS

fish..
yeah i know..
just keep diggin..

 

[amadeus]

@Ziggy
Considering the fish in your post #6 perhaps this old post of mine to another forum may bring some Light or some questions:

What is God’s purpose for the 153 fish [TalkJesus, Bible Study Hall] 9-12-2012

While I am not a strong numbers person, Dorian37 (Dorian37,Patrick
passed from this life of the flesh a couple of years ago) may remember this connection I mentioned to him at another time with regard to "a great multitude of fishes", and "an hundred and fifty and three" great fishes.

The first instance is in Luke, prior to the death of Jesus:

"Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.

And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net.

And when they had this done, they enclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.

And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink.

When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.

For he was astonished, and all that were with him, at the draught of the fishes which they had taken:

And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men." Luke 5:4-10

The second instance is in John after Jesus had died and resurrected:

"Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.

Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken." John 21:10-11

The net with a great multitude of fishes broke the first time was prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus. The net with 153 great fishes did not break the second time after the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Going back to the first instance in Luke consider these words in verse 10: "Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men". Given those words of Jesus, what if His reference to "fishes" in the second instance was to men?

Is verse 13 speaking of the fish as being part of the dinner or as dinner guests along with the disciples? (I am no student of Greek, but perhaps someone on the forum, who is, can help us on that point.)

Notice that later in that same chapter (John 21) Jesus tells Peter three times to feed his lambs (once) and sheep (twice).

That brings us back to the difference between the first instance's multitude of fishes and the second instance's 153 fishes.

In the first instance, the price had not yet been paid by Jesus. In the second instance, the price had been paid. Carnal men did not even possess a net strong enough to contain the multitude of fishes Jesus brought to them. It was not yet possible for them. But... after Jesus had paid the price them the men's net caught 153 fish (or was it men?).

I would really be interested in hearing any clarification of this...

I would still be interested in any additional understandings or clarifications here.

 

[Ziggy]

Well then you have the "nets".. and traps and snares..
they got "caught..
is that a good thing???

Jonah got "caught". He was running away. And instead of him catching that big ole fish, the fish caught him.
Jonah had a day of reckoning with the Lord,
While he sat in that fishes belly he had time to think.
And realize, there is no way I'm getting out of this alive.
(some say Jonah died in the fishes belly and God resurrected him on the 3rd day and spewed him out onto dry land)
Which would/could make sense with, like Jonah was 3 days in the whales belly so shall the Son of man be in the earth 3 days and 3 nights.

Somewhere in Job we see this othe big fish called Leviathan. And the question is who can make him submit.
Who can hook him in the nose, who can pierce his scales..
Well, I think we know,
Because that ole fish gave up his catch.
Kind of like God taking back his own from the devil.

Now I think Jesus sent those boys on a mission to go preach, but they turned back..
kinda like the swine to go fishing. I don't think it was the kind of fishing you do on sunday morning
while the family goes to church. I think it was Industry. Business.
And when he saw Jesus he said, Dear Lord, I just got caught.

Naked even!!!
But thats another dig for another shovel.

I think Peter was supposed to be kind of like the new Adam in a sense that
Jesus gave him the keys to one of those kingdoms men get to rule.
But Peter blew it, and so the keys got passed to Paul.
But this leads away from those nets... or does it?

I love the Word of God!!!!
I talk about eating all thr time,
and I find myself running empty all the time lol
although I feel extremely FULL.
Does that make sense?
It does to me..
Me too :)

Amadeus!
Thank you
I need another shovel..
fishes and nets.. and bread and LOVE
HUGS